Does the Torah and the Bible forbid homosexuality?

[finleeport]

One of my old classmates (who went to a Evangelical Family church next to my old elementary school) wrote to me and gave a full statement she had against LGBT people and homosexual marriage,

"The Torah makes a clear statement that homosexuality is not an acceptable lifestyle or a genuine identity by severely prohibiting its conduct. Furthermore, the Torah, ever prescient about negative secular influences, warns us in Vayikra (Leviticus) 20:23 'Do not follow the traditions of the nations that I expel from before you…' Particularly the Torah writes this in regards to homosexuality and other forbidden sexual liaisons," the statement says.

The document has been signed by a coalition of more than 100 rabbis, community organizers, leaders and mental-health professionals. Among the signers who have chosen to go public with their endorsement of the position are psychologist and author Dr. Miriam Adaham of Jerusalem; Rabbi Simcha Feuerman, president of the International Network of Orthodox Mental Health Professions; Los Angeles psychiatrist and author Dr. Miriam Grossman; Dr. Joseph Gelbfish of Brooklyn, N.Y.; Rabbi Yaakov Salomon, psychotherapist and author; Rabbi Steven Pruzansky, a vice president of the Rabbinical Council of America and dozens more.

Is that so? she explained to me that the Greek word "Arsenokoitai" really meant men who lie with men in a sexual way. I am Greek but to be honest I know very little of language, I'm not fluent in Greek :oops: family shame. But I don't think arsenokoitai actually means homosexuality.

She also showed me a site http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=381765

[holierthanyou]

Both the Torah and the Bible forbid the consumption of shellfish (e.g. shrimp, lobster, etc), but I have yet to see a fundy get their panties in a twist over that 'abomination' unto the Lord their God.

[finleeport]

Both the Torah and the Bible forbid the consumption of shellfish (e.g. shrimp, lobster, etc), but I have yet to see a fundy get their panties in a twist over that 'abomination' unto the Lord their God.

That's true, but then why do they get all twisted over who sleeps or marries who? Why are they so obsessed with family and producing children?

[Esther]

It's been suggested that the Biblical prohibition against homosexuality cannot be literally translated as such and that the Greek word implies it is a prohibition of pedophilia (which was often male/male at the time). I don't know enough Greek to know for sure.

At any rate, I don't feel the need to let 2000+ year old prohibitions run my life - particularly because fundies pick and choose, too.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

That's true, but then why do they get all twisted over who sleeps or marries who? Why are they so obsessed with family and producing children?

Keeping track of bloodlines and inheritance, as well as increasing the population, has been a tribal concern for humans in many contexts. I suspect it comes from this, somewhere back in the mists of time, and is then encoded.

As for the "men lying with men as they would with a woman" thing, definitely there are those make the distinction and realize that it's really only man-with-man homosexual actions that are technically forbidden, and so will give women-with-women relationships a bit more of a "pass." Also the prohibition on masturbation is about wasting sperm, really, and so it's really only males who are forbidden (but since then there's been lots of fences built around all of it to be more of a blanket prohibition).

The interesting part about prohibiting homosexuality is that it's one of the few laws that supposedly applies to ALL people, not just Jewish people. So when there's the talk of "well, these rules are only for the in-group, the one main audience God was speaking to" there's seven that aren't (they were given to Noah, much earlier than the later giving of full law to Moses), and among those seven are the prohibition on homosexuality.

This came up in some of the arguments over whether it was proper for some religious right-wing lobby groups to campaign against same-sex marriage in New York state.

[Conuly]

Unless your Evangelical friend is a kosher keeping Jew, I don't want to hear any opinion she has which is based upon Leviticus. (And even if she were - I'm not Jewish! So I still don't need to hear it.)

So now we have two questions: Is homosexuality (in the definition of homosexual "behavior" rather than orientation) forbidden for Jews, and is it (also) forbidden for Christians and/or everybody?

And there is no real easy answer to this one because so many parts of the Bible are subject to interpretation, and we don't always know the reasoning behind why they were included. It gets worse when you talk about Christianity, because then you have to ask which, if any, of those old laws are supposed to apply to Christians at all - and a lot of them seem to talk out of both sides of their mouth, saying first that Jesus made it so you don't have to follow the laws in the OT, but then quoting it to say that this or that thing is forbidden, not just to Jews and Christians, but to the whole entire world!

[Hane]

Yes, I really do think that the Bible prohibits homosexuality--and I really don't care. The Bible was written by men--men who codified their own prejudices and those of the societies they lived in.

I feel no obligation to give such a prohibition any credence as divine law.

[Terrie]

She also showed me a site http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=381765

She showed you WingNut Daily? That's about as valid as claiming an urban legend actually happened to your sister's best friend's cousin.

[Sola]

It depends on your own interpretation.

I have a Jewish friend who is gay. She has studied Torah (obviously, she is an observant Jew) and in her view it doesn't. She says that the verses in the OT were referring to both casual sex and the sexual practices of homosexual prostitutes in pagan temples. For gay people in committed relationships, the equivalent of marriage, there is no prohibition.

Then there is the issue that nobody really knows what 'arsenokotai' actually means. The first time that word ever was used was in the letters of Paul of Tarsus. It isn't a Greek (nor Hebrew, Aramaic or any other language) word so there is no direct translation. Now fundies prefer to think that it means gay sex, but going on the preceding and proceeding verses, it could easily mean men who have sex with young boys (an accepted practice at the time - it was actually seen as a step up in the world if a young boy was accepted by an older influential man to have sex with), in other words paedophilia.

[ilovetchotchkes]

My synagogue makes a point of welcoming same sex couples. I can think of at least 4 off the top of my head and i"m bad with names. (One of those couples are my brother and his partner).

There's the ONE passage in Leviticus, that's IT. From my small run-ins with Orthodox folks, the little that its been talked about IN MY perception in Orthodox circles, its not accepted. There's a REALLY good movie Trembling before G-d that documents the lives of I think 3-4 people who are gay and Orthodox.

Honestly, I think if it were on the same level as say, a cheeseburger or shrimp, it would have been mentioned more than once as the food laws are- kosher mammals that chew their cud and have cloven hooves are mentioned twice and pretty darn clearly. And the language too, isn't terribly clear, "lie with another man" what the hell is that supposed to mean?

[TinyDancer87]

I've recently watched a documentary called "For the Bible Tells Me So" which talks about the relationship between homosexuality and the Christian/Jewish faith. In the movie, they said that the actual translation for "abomination" found in the OT wasn't a word to express damnation, but a word that means "culturally unexeptable". This would make sense because at the time Leviticus was written, the 12 tribes were still fairly small, lets say, compared to Egypt, and "spilling" the seed with other men was not in the best interest for procreational purposes. Therefore, laying with men was culturally unexeptable.

A different word is used in Romans, but pretty much the same meaning. I don't remember the exact Hebrew words or exact definitions, but perhaps this could provide some insight.

Let me just add a word of advice for anyone who follows the Bible LITERALLY. You may be following the Bible literally, but if it is translated wrong, then you're following it wrong.

[BlackHawk]

Is that so? she explained to me that the Greek word "Arsenokoitai" really meant men who lie with men in a sexual way.

I've explained this before but I'll jump in again. First, if your friend is talking about the Torah, which my understanding is the Old Testament, the word Arsenokoitai is not used. Arsenokoitai does not have a direct translation, it seems to be a word that Paul made up. It has been translated to mean so many things, from abusers of self to Homosexual to sodomite. It is a compounded greek word, which apparently is not unheard of, and is believed to break down to literally mean "female's bed" (O is the male definitive of "the", Koitai being derived from the root work Koitey which means "bed" or "Place where coitus occurs" and koitai being in the female form would make it the female bed). Which has nothing to do with homosexuality, really. It is believed by some, not all, and not many in mainstream, that Arsenokoitai was created by Paul to be the male form of adulterer, since the before word was Adulteri which mean Adulterer in the female voice.

In reality no one knows the true meaning Paul gave to Arsenokoitai when he wrote the line. People can make up what they want, give their views, but no one knows the true intent.

Anyway, there is my bit on the word.