John Piper and the brewing abuse scandal at Bethlehem Baptist Church and Seminary

[Bluebirdbluebell]

John Piper is a highly influential evangelical leader. He comes up a lot when talking about fundies. Members of the Duggar family have seen him preach live.

He is head of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minnesota. His church and seminary are beginning to face allegations of abuse, which seem to stem from Twitter.

Here is an article documenting what is happening. 

From the article:

Quote

The church where John Piper pastored for 33 years is arguably facing one of its greatest crises in 150 years. Elders and ministers at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, Minnesota have resigned over what Piper’s successor, Jason Meyer, calls an embrace of “neo-fundamentalism” and a “unity” culture that breeds fear and seeks to protect the institution. Another pastor who resigned is accusing a Bethlehem elder of spiritual abuse and calling on him to resign.

This explains those tweets from Piper's son-in-law in the exvangelical thread. I didn't understand the context for them so I'm starting a new thread.

[shesinsane]

Quote

 Another pastor who resigned is accusing a Bethlehem elder of spiritual abuse and calling on him to resign.

One upside to being non-religious: minimal risk of spiritual abuse. 

The linked article also mentions Doug Wilson, but doesn't include that Doug Wilson is a pedophile enabler.

Quote

Some of the resignations were due to normal factors, like families moving out of the area. But many were due to tensions resulting from racial and women’s issues, ties to controversial pastor  Doug Wilson, and the elders’ handling of allegations of misconduct by Andy Naselli.

 

[Pecansforeveryone]

John Piper is very popular in Neo Cal fundie circles with a cult of personality that rivals fellow Cal John Macarthur. Jeremy Vuolo, in particular, is a big fan.

[JermajestyDuggar]

27 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

John Piper is very popular in Neo Cal fundie circles with a cult of personality that rivals fellow Cal John Macarthur. Jeremy Vuolo, in particular, is a big fan.

As a grown adult, I find it extremely hard to be a huge fan of anyone. As a teen, I was obsessed with some handsome celebrities. But as an adult, I basically see everyone as human. Who make mistakes. I can’t really put anyone on a pedestal. I’m probably just too damn jaded. I definitely like some people. But I can’t follow everything they say and agree. There’s a therapist on YouTube named Dr Grande. I like his analysis of things. I think he’s intelligent and empathetic. But I do disagree with him at times. And I definitely don’t worship him. 

[Columbia]

45 minutes ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

John Piper is very popular in Neo Cal fundie circles with a cult of personality that rivals fellow Cal John Macarthur. Jeremy Vuolo, in particular, is a big fan.

John Piper has platformed the worst of the worst through his “ministry:” Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney, Doug Wilson. I don’t think he’s ever had to answer for it, until now that enough people are talking, especially about Doug the pedophile protector Wilson.

[Giraffe]

I don't think I could be any less surprised. He's basically just the midwest version of John Ortberg. 

[hoipolloi]

7 hours ago, Columbia said:

John Piper has platformed the worst of the worst through his “ministry:” Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney, Doug Wilson.

And plenty of people have called him out but he's still protected by fundie power brokers, and just keeps skating along with no consequences.

I'd like to think that the allegations of abuse at Bethlehem Baptist Church will finally bring him to account but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Antipatriarch]

9 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

I'd like to think that the allegations of abuse at Bethlehem Baptist Church will finally bring him to account but I'm not holding my breath.

I wish it would happen too, but I have no hope that it will. Piper is revered to a degree that there isn't anybody who could or would meaningfully hold him to account. As he enters the twilight years of his life, his legacy has been written. It's not going to meaningfully change.

At the church and school, the recent flap over the racial reconciliation task force and abusive leadership was a fork in the road. Those who resigned and left were the ones working for change; those remaining in charge are the ones who have no problem with Joe Rigney cozying up to Doug Wilson, Andy Naselli being harsh with his students, and a posture of suspicion toward those they derisively label "the woke". The older generation of elders would at least listen to people's concerns and feel some empathy for their suffering, even if changes were minimal. The new generation isn't afraid to just shut you down under the mantle of straight talk and firm leadership... especially if you're a woman.

I greatly appreciate what Julie Roys and others are trying to do, but it's too late for this church to reform. The best that good reporting and widespread publicity can do (and I hope it will!) is make a few more people see the church for what it is, and that they need to leave.

The downtown campus of BBC is in shambles at the moment. The three campuses are now planning to become independent churches, and I guaran-damn-tee you the suburban north and south churches will have no interest in racial reconciliation, addressing leaders' and men's abuse of women, etc. What happens downtown remains to be seen but as I said I have no hope at this point.

[Giraffe]

17 minutes ago, Antipatriarch said:

I wish it would happen too, but I have no hope that it will. Piper is revered to a degree that there isn't anybody who could or would meaningfully hold him to account. As he enters the twilight years of his life, his legacy has been written. It's not going to meaningfully change.

 

This could've been written about John MacArthur, too. Same thing will happen when the allegations get louder than they already are. MacArthur will go down as a persecuted hero. It's sickening. 

[Columbia]

2 hours ago, Antipatriarch said:

As he enters the twilight years of his life, his legacy has been written. It's not going to meaningfully change.

That’s probably very true, but I also used to think the same thing about Ravi Zacharias before the last year. While they’re two different case studies in evangelical men run amok there just might be enough voices and stories one day to call Piper to account, too. I hope so. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

Could somebody more tech savvy move some of the tweets from Piper's son-in-law Matt Moore to this thread and also the backlash? I thought Moore was just talking generalities until I looked it up. 

One reason Piper and MacArthur are getting much attention is that neither of one of them runs something odd enough to be a cult and yet a lot of people don't really care about churches/Christianity, etc. at all. 

[Antipatriarch]

7 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Could somebody more tech savvy move some of the tweets from Piper's son-in-law Matt Moore to this thread and also the backlash? I thought Moore was just talking generalities until I looked it up. 

@Howl posted this link to an unroll of a really good thread. I think he's spot-on.

[Jasmar]

12 hours ago, Antipatriarch said:

I greatly appreciate what Julie Roys and others are trying to do, but it's too late for this church to reform. The best that good reporting and widespread publicity can do (and I hope it will!) is make a few more people see the church for what it is, and that they need to leave.

I totally agree. I check on the Wartburg Watch now and then, and have the same feeling there. They mean well, and are doing important work calling stuff out, but they are definitely in the “let’s clean up the church so it can get on with the business of saving and caring for people,” and I just cannot relate to that. The abuse of power in evangelicalism is a feature, not a bug, and many people trying to reform the church don’t seem to understand that.

[hoipolloi]

12 minutes ago, Jasmar said:

The abuse of power in evangelicalism is a feature, not a bug, and many people trying to reform the church don’t seem to understand that.

Absolutely correct, IMO. This was the problem with Christianity Today's Mars Hill podcast -- the host, Mike Cosper, and everyone he interviewed seem to think that Driscoll was just doing it wrong. They cannot or will not see how toxic the entire structure and contents of evangelicalism are. 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by hoipolloi

[stylites]

On 11/9/2021 at 10:47 PM, Columbia said:

John Piper has platformed the worst of the worst through his “ministry:” Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney, Doug Wilson.

Note that Piper doesn't have an issue with attacking people he thinks are less than sound theologically (Greg Boyd or NT Wright as examples).  The NT Wright example is instructive - his view is arguably much more orthodox than that of Doug Wilson (who really strays into the territory of "works righteousness" looking at it from a Reformed perspective), yet it's Wright Piper rails against rather than Federal Vision.

I think Piper is much more culturally bound than possibly even he realises, and I also suspect that like his idol Jonathan Edwards his brand of Christianity is very much driven by certain obsessive personality characteristics.

Edited November 12, 2021 by stylites

[feministxtian]

On 11/10/2021 at 8:54 PM, Jasmar said:

I totally agree. I check on the Wartburg Watch now and then, and have the same feeling there. They mean well, and are doing important work calling stuff out, but they are definitely in the “let’s clean up the church so it can get on with the business of saving and caring for people,” and I just cannot relate to that. The abuse of power in evangelicalism is a feature, not a bug, and many people trying to reform the church don’t seem to understand that.

Evangelicalism needs to be totally dismantled. I don't see it happening but I think that belief system is a serious danger to our culture, our country. They pick all the stuff out of the bible to nitpick with and forget the part about 

For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

They're hearing what they want to hear. 

[hoipolloi]

57 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

Evangelicalism needs to be totally dismantled. I don't see it happening but I think that belief system is a serious danger to our culture, our country.

Couldn't agree more about the danger evangelicalism, particularly white Christian nationalism, poses to the country.

It is hopeful that there are so many excellent books, articles, and other studies coming out -- almost on a weekly basis -- that treat evangelicalism as the threatening social-political movement it really is.

As Crissy Stroop has said repeatedly, the media and everyone else have to quit giving evangelicalism a pass on hard scrutiny. 

[feministxtian]

9 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

Couldn't agree more about the danger evangelicalism, particularly white Christian nationalism, poses to the country.

It is hopeful that there are so many excellent books, articles, and other studies coming out -- almost on a weekly basis -- that treat evangelicalism as the threatening social-political movement it really is.

As Crissy Stroop has said repeatedly, the media and everyone else have to quit giving evangelicalism a pass on hard scrutiny. 

Yes, there are all sorts of books and other media coming out about the danger of evangelicalism, the issue seems to be that the segment of the population who needs to consume this media, won't. Not all Christians are part of this, but it's moved out of the protestant world only into the Catholic and LDS worlds too. The other issue is that these fundie whackjobs in the government are there due to the essential unfairness of how the US is divided. Metro areas seem to be less fundie (not saying less religious because I don't know), where rural areas tend to be more fundie. What then happens is that there's more rural communities than there are metro areas and the rural communities are given the same clout as the cities. 

It IS possible to be a Christian and not follow the fundie bullshit. They are still, realistically a minority in the US, they're just loud AF. 

[Giraffe]

My WTF at christian nationalism was the beginning of the really long road to leaving evangelicalism. It might’ve been around that time I stopped idolizing families like the Duggars, too, and started seeing what was behind the curtain. Even at my fundiest I saw christian nationalism as the antithesis of biblical. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Giraffe

[Howl]

Just came across this on Twitter.  BCS = Bethlehem College & Seminary 

Unroll of twitter thread here.

This man gave up his professional career, benefits, retirement rather than sign an NDA for Bethlehem College and Seminary. 

[stylites]

Daniel Kleven has been writing an interesting series of posts on the topic of Robert Dabney, his influence in Reformed circles,  and Piper's promotion of him:

https://biblioskolex.wordpress.com/2021/12/16/john-piper-desiring-god-and-robert-lewis-dabney/

There's quite a few more topics touched on in his twitter feed - including Driscoll, Doug Wilson etc. made it hard to know which thread to post this in (there are also some connections - re Wilson specially - with Jesus and John Wayne).  He's actually spent a lot of time digging into the original sources to bring out all sorts of fairly unsavoury connections to light.

There's a constant run of very quotable sections (all for the right reasons):

Quote

Here I need to pause and ask a question: who gets to decide who the “giants of the Christian faith” are? What are the qualifications for such an elevation of status? Here, it appears to be “theological precision” and being “a brilliant thinker,” “a man of great learning and religion” (148). This, to me, is part of the problem. Our criteria for “giant of the Christian faith” is ethically anemic; it elevates intellect, and ignores the obedience of love and justice. We elevate “heroes” based on their “theology,” and then find ourselves in a conundrum: “Now what do we do with their glaring inconsistencies?” Maybe we need to go all the way back to square one, and re-evaluate what makes a “giant,” and only hold those in esteem who are actually worthy of imitation, not just those who intellectually stimulate us through their books.

 

[stylites]

Julie Roys latest podcast episode on this is worth listening to, her guests come across very well in my opinion, and I think if what they say is true (and all indications are that the bulk of it is - even stuff outside the podcast which can be referenced) then there are some fundamental structural issues with Bethlehem Baptist.

The Takata's come across as just the kind of family conservative churches would dream of having as attendees;  a couple who have trans-racially adopted, involved in the church, believing firmly in the concept of church covenants and the obligations of membership.  Who ended up clashing with the leadership because they assumed those obligations would be taken equally seriously by the leadership.

I think what's going to end up doing for some of the high profile Reformed ministries is the character of some of their second generation recruits.

[MamaJunebug]

13 hours ago, stylites said:

involved in the church, believing firmly in the concept of church covenants and the obligations of membership.  Who ended up clashing with the leadership because they assumed those obligations would be taken equally seriously by the leadership.

I’ve heard conservatives in my church talk about our society becoming  “post-Christian.”

Why would that be happening, I’ve wondered, if it is happening.  

And here’s part of the answer! The situation at Bethlehem Baptist, where leaders focused solely on themselves and their own celebrity and worldly position.

Makes more more sense as an answer than inclusivity, female clergy and the other reasons conservatives give. 
 

Also: I cannot abide John “Flutterhands” Piper. What a poseur! 

[stylites]

On 1/14/2022 at 5:01 AM, MamaJunebug said:

Also: I cannot abide John “Flutterhands” Piper. What a poseur! 

I think it's increasingly clear as time goes by how many of these problems date back to Piper.  I think what you are seeing is those tendencies taken to their logical conclusion, and then defended by people who have basically landed on a very well paying job (as such things go) and really don't want to move on.

[stylites]

Crystal Bowers posted a modesty brochure similar to the one that used to be handed out at Bethlehem, the brochure she posts is from the SGM, and from discussion appears to be what inspired the one put out by Bethlehem: