Sheila Gregoire's 10/15 post

[EowynW]

Guys, please tell me I'm not the only one who is unsettled at this post and the comments on this post. And WTF is with her newly wed daughter running around in the comments telling people they are selfish for not wanting children. 

Sheila was helpful to me when I first left fundamentalism, but lately I've had a harder time seeing eye to eye with her. Maybe I am just too sensitive but sometimes under her Jesus talk I sense a fundie lite streak. Maybe I've outgrown her and am too liberal now. Who knows. 

 

https://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2018/10/i-dont-want-to-kids-with-husband/

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I'm afraid I didn't make it through all the comments, but this comment by Sheila caught my eye:

Quote

I think if two people genuinely don’t want kids, that’s really okay. But it is so hard to ask a spouse to give up their dream of having kids. That’s a huge ask. If two people agree, okay. But I just think it’s a big thing to ask of someone when they’re younger.

But in the original question that the post is based around, the young woman says:

Quote

I’ve never wanted to be a mother. I was clear about this with my husband while we were dating, and he accepted it. Three years later, he now has a strong desire to have a child, but God still hasn’t placed that desire in me. 

She made it quite clear from the beginning how she felt about having kids. If he accepted that and married her, it seems to me like he's the one asking a "big thing", not her.

If Sheila's daughter is calling people selfish for not wanting children, then she has some growing up to do, IMHO. Not wanting children isn't selfish. There are so many reasons to not want to have kids, and so many reasons to choose not to have kids even though a couple might like to. (For example health problems.)

I've sometimes worried that I was selfish to have children. We did wait until we were a bit financially stable, but we have faced some serious money problems since our kids were born, and it's not like my depression problems all disappeared. I hope we aren't short-changing them. Love is important, but so is security and stability. 

[SuperNova]

@WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? If you watch the video, Sheila's daughter takes her point even further by saying that women in their 20's don't know what they want and shouldn't say they don't want children. But she says it's ok for women in their 30's to make the same statement. She goes on to say that if you really, really don't want children and he does, have one anyway. She stipulates that in that case the majority of the child care should fall to the husband. Both Sheila and Rebecca state that children should always be considered because having children wouldn't be a tragedy. 

I made it to about 9:30 and couldn't stand to listen anymore. I have no idea what gives these women the audacity to make such judgements about other people's choices for their marriages, especially the daughter who is only 23.

I get where you're coming from about feeling selfish for having kids. I raised Baby Nova with a heaping helping of guilt for keeping a baby at 16. It was rough and there were times we were homeless and hungry. Love is what got us through, not from a sense of duty but because my baby was truly wanted, just like your children. I couldn't offer her stability but she always felt secure because she has always known that she is deeply loved. She's a grown woman now and whenever we talk about those days, all she rememebers is that everything seemed like a fun adventure because I never let her suffer. All that to say that it's not selfish to want children and there's never the perfect time to have them.

Sorry if none of this makes sense. It's late here and I have insomnia!

[Mrs. Bean]

In my 20s I absolutely did not want to have children and was sure I absolutely did not want to be a mother, we even entertained an idea of tubal ligation or vasectomy for In my husband. In my 30s I changed my mind and did become a mother at  33 and again at 36. I do see the point about women sometimes changing their minds, everyone who knows my husband and I were shocked we did. 

[Lisafer]

Ugh that article was gross, judgmental, and full of bad advice. In the beginning scenario, the husband is the one who's changed his mind and is requesting a huge thing from his wife. She was always upfront about her desire not to have kids. None of this is her fault.

Then followed by standard bullshit about "blessings" and "motherhood" etc. etc. 

Nope. I'm not sure Sheila and her daughter are living in the real world. The one where emotionally healthy, loving, responsible women... sometimes don't want kids. Ever. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Howl]

4 hours ago, SuperNova said:

She's a grown woman now and whenever we talk about those days, all she remembers is that everything seemed like a fun adventure because I never let her suffer.

One of the sweetest things ever. Thank you. 

[Playagirl]

Ugh. There is nothing wrong with not wanting children. She was upfront about it before she married him and he was OK with that. She shouldn't have to make a life-altering lifetime commitment to something she does not want because he changed his mind.

Ex-neighbours of mine made that decision. She wanted kids, he absolutely did not and made it clear before marriage. She assumed he'd change his mind and when he didn't she said she'd take full responsibility for them so he gave in. It did not end well. They had two and he refused to have any part in childcare to the point where she'd have to hire a babysitter to watch them if she had to go out, even if he was home. She grew very resentful, they fought like hell and eventually divorced. They both moved away so I don't know what became of them, or how the kids are doing now. He was an absolute dick about it; he needed to man-up and give those kids the love and attention they deserved once he agreed to have them. But she was just as much of a dick for pressuring him into something he so very clearly did not want. Long story short: don't have kids if you don't want them, and don't force somebody else into it if they don't want them. The kids pay the price.

[MomKB]

The reader says her husband is controlling, and threatens suicide if she won't have kids. (After she made it clear before marriage she didn't want them.) To me, those are major red flags. It seems like the last thing she should be doing right now is getting pregnant.

I didn't watch the video, but I think Sheila really dropped the ball by saying that refusing to have kids is unfair to your spouse. That is probably true in some cases, but this reader needs help for her marriage, and Sheila didn't even mention that. What good is saying, "Don't marry someone who wouldn't be a good dad?" going to do her? SMH

[Lgirlrocks]

I’m 29 and I never have wanted kids. No desire. My hubby doesn’t want kids either. We were both very clear about this when we started dating. I think all couples should talk about what they would do if their spouse decided they wanted kids later on in life. If hubby changed his mind I would have kids with him because I know he would be a great dad. There is no pressure for either of us to change our minds. Something else that we have talked about is an unplanned pregnancy. I am on bc but it’s never 100% fool proof. If I got pregnant I would keep the child. I know someone who married a women and neither of them wanted kids. She changed her mind and they recently had a son. He had no desire to have one. People do grow and change their minds but talking about this before marriage is key imo.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

As far as couples who are more undecided, who might want kids but aren't sure, the advice I liked the best was actually from a evangelical preacher. She recommended that couples who have a big decision, but who don't have to make it immediately set a limit on not discussing the topic for a set time.

Like, if a couple might want a child, but aren't sure, or aren't ready yet, just let it be for a year, or two. For whatever length of time they agree on, they don't worry about it and discuss it in circles. Then, they revisit the decision and see how their minds, feelings, and circumstances have changed in the meantime. I never tried it with my husband, but it sounded like a practical idea for something that didn't need an immediate choice, and that the couple might have already gotten "stuck" on. (I think that was Wendy Treat. I haven't heard or read any of her stuff for years and years.)

[dairyfreelife]

I personally want children. I like children. If I had the time and money I'd have several, but  value their education and well-being so will probably limit it to 2-3, at most 4 children. I've always wanted to be a mom and struggle with the idea of not being a mother. 

Notice how many times I said I? Because it's actually selfish. I want to have children because I want them. Which is, of course, how it should be. People should have children because they want them. The world doesn't need everyone to have children. Humans aren't at risk of going instinct. 

This couple doesn't need her caving to his wishes. They need therapy.