Elizabeth Smart appears in anti-porn ad, says porn made her attacker more violent

[season of life]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4258824-155/pornography-made-my-living-hell-worse

I feel terrible that she went through that ugly ordeal, but I don't like the implication that watching porn makes you susceptible to committing crimes. Rapists rape because they like control and power.

[Geechee Girl]

I'm pleased she has found happiness after her ordeal. She is brave to share her story. I see how she makes the association being exposed to that material at such an impressionable age during those horrors. CSA survivors having an aversion to pornography makes sense. Her truth isn't one size fits all, but I do respect her advocacy. 

[libriatrix]

1 hour ago, season of life said:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4258824-155/pornography-made-my-living-hell-worse

I feel terrible that she went through that ugly ordeal, but I don't like the implication that watching porn makes you susceptible to committing crimes. Rapists rape because they like control and power.

I completely agree that rapists rape for control and power, but I do think you can make a case that porn works alongside of and can exacerbate rape culture. This is not a problem inherent to porn per se but a problem with the type of porn that's rampant -- porn that treats women like objects and creates ridiculous standards of beauty.

[sophie10130]

I think porn isn't necessarily a black and white entity. It's gigantic and there are parts of it that are extremely widespread and easy to get to that are extremely abusive and damaging. The way women are treated in porn and are treated in parts of the porn industry is disgusting. It's abusive, plain and simple. I am assuming that was the porn he was looking at.

Was there a connection between him being a rapist and also looking at porn? I have no idea. But it doesn't shock me that Elizabeth Smart thinks there is a connection or that porn was exacerbating her condition. We have no idea what happened other than what she said, and if she says that porn made it worse, then I'll believe her.

I think that if Elizabeth Smart wants to fight this battle because of her own experience, then she has every right to do it. Porn might be extremely triggering for her, and it's natural to want to do away with it just as much as she wants to do away with rapists. Do I think her experience is the end all be all? No. But I'm not really going to stick up for the porn industry as it stands now.

 

I'm not super knowledgeable about the subject though, so I'm really interested in seeing more thoughts.

[season of life]

My issue with this is that Fighting The New Drug is probably using her and her experience to further promote the idea that porn is something that can cause you to become violent. Millions of Americans, both male and female, watch porn and do not attack anyone. Porn allows people to explore their sexuality.  There is already a stigma against pornography that makes people, especially fundies, think women who willingly work as porn actresses are sluts and it causes evil desires. It seems incredibly wrong for this company to use her as a vehicle to promote their agenda. I'm sure she believes in the message and has good intentions, but I do not feel comfortable with the message she wants to send or believe anything positive will come from it. Help those who suffered due to bad working conditions, strengthen consent laws, but don't generalize the neighbors, classmates, siblings, and friends who enjoy porn.

[faraway]

3 hours ago, season of life said:

My issue with this is that Fighting The New Drug is probably using her and her experience to further promote the idea that porn is something that can cause you to become violent. Millions of Americans, both male and female, watch porn and do not attack anyone. Porn allows people to explore their sexuality. 

Exactly. This is a very similar discussion to the one about violent video games after mass shootings happened. 

Elizabeth went through hell and I understand her point, but I'm afraid she is just advocating the Mormon agenda, which is very anti-porn. They also like to generalize, a.i. watching porn is an addiction. I really don't like that they are using her and her story for this matter.

The porn industry itself isn't without problems, but I don't think "making it go away" is the solution. 

[polecat]

7 hours ago, season of life said:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4258824-155/pornography-made-my-living-hell-worse

I feel terrible that she went through that ugly ordeal, but I don't like the implication that watching porn makes you susceptible to committing crimes. Rapists rape because they like control and power.

 

Porn is often used by sexual abusers during the grooming process. I am not about to argue with her about her own experiences.

I have no doubt in my mind that he used porn to work himself up and possibly/probably forced her to watch it with him. Porn didn't make him abuse her, but he quite likely used child porn and other really repulsive stuff that goes far beyond what the average person watches to facilitate his abuse of her.

[backyard sylph]

7 hours ago, polecat said:

Porn is often used by sexual abusers during the grooming process. I am not about to argue with her about her own experiences.

I have no doubt in my mind that he used porn to work himself up and possibly/probably forced her to watch it with him. Porn didn't make him abuse her, but he quite likely used child porn and other really repulsive stuff that goes far beyond what the average person watches to facilitate his abuse of her.

Yes, which is why, to my way of thinking, painting it all with a wide flat brush is not a good idea.

When you do that with any topic, you are ineffective at best. This is one of my life mantras. People are certainly not all the same, and will not all respond the same way to the same messages, stimuli, or provocation. In this case, if you tell some of them that watching pretend cowboys having it off with women in hay barns is the same as whatever this person was likely into, they're not going to receive that well.

She might need this catharsis, but it is not likely doing the world at-large a favor.

[polecat]

2 hours ago, backyard sylph said:

Yes, which is why, to my way of thinking, painting it all with a wide flat brush is not a good idea.

When you do that with any topic, you are ineffective at best. This is one of my life mantras. People are certainly not all the same, and will not all respond the same way to the same messages, stimuli, or provocation. In this case, if you tell some of them that watching pretend cowboys having it off with women in hay barns is the same as whatever this person was likely into, they're not going to receive that well.

She might need this catharsis, but it is not likely doing the world at-large a favor.

 

 

 

I'm going to refer you back to my very first sentence where I said: 

Quote

Porn is often used by sexual abusers during the grooming process.

That statement was not qualified in any way. Porn -- all kinds of porn from Playboy magazines (which I suspect most people think of as fairly innocent when it comes to porn) to hardcore stuff -- is used by predators to groom victims.

I have no idea if *in this case* it was used to groom Smart, but I can easily believe she has developed a strong, easily triggered reaction to it as a result of whatever exposure to it. My qualified statement was in regards to what might have aggravated is behavior (but I have no way of knowing).

As I also said, I am not about to argue about her personal experience. She is the only one who knows what happened and how it felt. That said, I don't think anyone is going to change their minds on the topic, and I'm not going to debate. (That's not being said rudely -- I'm just not in a debate-y place right now.)

 

eta: That said, I do agree that the ad place appears to be exploitative. 

[backyard sylph]

I think perhaps I did not make myself clear, somehow, as I was not disagreeing with you, in advancing my own thoughts.

[FundieFarmer]

I guess it would depend the type of porn she's talking about...I think you can watch or look at even some very aggressive BDSM without turning into a rapist. But if she's talking about the sort of thing that's hardly even porn- more of a video of an actual assault- well, that's a different sort of thing. I'm not sure I'm making sense, if not I'll come back and clarify as I had a migraine today so I might be having some typing aphasia, but I agree that porn doesn't make a rapist.

I agree this seems exploitative. Or like more convenient conservative manipulation and whatnot.

[Grimalkin]

     I think it can be true for some people. Not everyone who drinks becomes an alcoholic. It's not hard to believe that porn could cause some people to become violent. I do know people who had porn addictions. At least one of them was exposed to porn as a young child. There is something there. It doesn't mean it will happen to everyone though.

 

   Like many of you have stated, I would never in a million years argue with Elizabeth Smart on this. She can say whatever the heck she wants to on this subject.

[season of life]

She can have whatever opinion she likes, but I don't like the idea that bring a victim of assault gives you the shield to say whatever you please. I too was a victim of sexual assault, and that doesn't give me the license to dump on men, although God knows I could use it. She doesn't have to watch pornography, that's fine, it's not a real necessity. But I shall watch my porn without shame or judgement. One day maybe these odd conservative companies will find a real issue to focus on.

[SilverBeach]

1 hour ago, Grimalkin said:

 

 

   Like many of you have stated, I would never in a million years argue with Elizabeth Smart on this. She can say whatever the heck she wants to on this subject.

Yes. Eleven years captivity? She has earned the right to speak on this.

[SilverBeach]

10 minutes ago, season of life said:

She can have whatever opinion she likes, but I don't like the idea that bring a victim of assault gives you the shield to say whatever you please. I too was a victim of sexual assault, and that doesn't give me the license to dump on men, although God knows I could use it. She doesn't have to watch pornography, that's fine, it's not a real necessity. But I shall watch my porn without shame or judgement. One day maybe these odd conservative companies will find a real issue to focus on.

While all sexual violations are vile and reprehensible, Elizabeth was taken from her family as a child, held captive, and sexually assaulted for eleven years. If she feels better by giving her opinion on porn, then have at it. It's just an opinion, subject to disagreement like any other. 

It won't change anything anyway. No reason for you to feel shamed or judged, it is still a free country. But if Trump is elected, look out!

[Bethella]

17 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Yes. Eleven years captivity? She has earned the right to speak on this.

Elizabeth Smart was only held for 9 months. I think you're confusing her with Jaycee Dugard who was held for 18 years.

[season of life]

Just now, SilverBeach said:

It won't change anything anyway. No reason for you to feel shamed or judged, it is still a free country. But if Trump is elected, look out!

Reminded of this election yet again! Off topic, but it is insane to me that Pence, presenting himself as a man of morals, agreed to be VP to an adulterer.

[SilverBeach]

2 minutes ago, Bethella said:

Elizabeth Smart was only held for 9 months. I think you're confusing her with Jaycee Dugard who was held for 18 years.

EEK! You are right, ES was kidnapped at 14 for nine months. I knew JD was gone 18 years, have no idea where I got 11 years from. Sorry y'all!

[VelociRapture]

My thoughts:

Elizabeth has fully earned the right to believe whatever she does about porn. I won't argue against that or try to tell her what her experience really was - that would be absolutely monstrous and wrong on so many levels. She's about the same age as me and I have nothing but respect for the amount of courage, strength, and grace she has shown throughout the years.

However, I don't think anything gives someone the right to force their views onto others or try to tell people what is or isn't good. Elizabeth can warn about the dangers of porn in the wrong hands if she wants (and discussing porn addiction is a good thing as long as the focus is on helping the person, not shaming them) but any attempt at making it completely illegal or trying to shame everyone who watches it is not ok. I'm not sure if that's the ultimate purpose of the campaign or not, so I will reserve further judgement.

On a personal note- I've never watched porn personally, but I'm fine with people watching it if they want. I've even told husband it's ok if he watches it, so long as it's nothing dangerous or illegal.

There are certainly forms of porn out there that should be banned outright and heavily prosecuted - anything to do with minors for instance. But porn in general? No. As long as all participants are adults and willingly consent I don't see an issue.

[SilverBeach]

@VelociRapture, I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. Porn runs the gamut from barely titillating to downright immoral (child porn). I have no use for any of it, but legal activities engaged in by adults are not my concern. I surmise that child predators use child porn for grooming purposes, so perhaps that is her perspective.

I don't have a problem if she supports making all porn illegal or shaming those who enjoy it. It doesn't matter one bit what she supports, it's a settled issue in the USA. If I did use porn, I wouldn't care what ES thought. Her opinion is just one opinion among many. 

[nastyhobbitses]

38 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

My thoughts:

Elizabeth has fully earned the right to believe whatever she does about porn. I won't argue against that or try to tell her what her experience really was - that would be absolutely monstrous and wrong on so many levels. She's about the same age as me and I have nothing but respect for the amount of courage, strength, and grace she has shown throughout the years.

However, I don't think anything gives someone the right to force their views onto others or try to tell people what is or isn't good. Elizabeth can warn about the dangers of porn in the wrong hands if she wants (and discussing porn addiction is a good thing as long as the focus is on helping the person, not shaming them) but any attempt at making it completely illegal or trying to shame everyone who watches it is not ok. I'm not sure if that's the ultimate purpose of the campaign or not, so I will reserve further judgement.

On a personal note- I've never watched porn personally, but I'm fine with people watching it if they want. I've even told husband it's ok if he watches it, so long as it's nothing dangerous or illegal.

There are certainly forms of porn out there that should be banned outright and heavily prosecuted - anything to do with minors for instance. But porn in general? No. As long as all participants are adults and willingly consent I don't see an issue.

Pretty much how I see it. Elizabeth went through stuff that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, and if porn was a component of what happened to her, she has every right to hate it and want to do away with it.

But here's an analogy: I had a boyfriend who treated me badly due to his binge drinking problem. I hated the person he was when he was drunk. I saw how dangerous alcohol can be and the damaging effects it can have on a person. But I don't want to ban alcohol. In fact, I quite enjoy drinking alcohol. Regulate it better? Yes. Offer healthier alternatives and make sure that healthy alternatives aren't stigmatized? Yes. Educate people about the dangers? Hell yes. But banning it won't undo what my ex did, won't undo what alcohol did to his psyche (he actually went into therapy after we broke up and got his shit together, and we're friends now), and probably wouldn't do much to actually solve the roots of the problems associated with alcohol abuse.

As for my opinion of porn, I've watched porn. I've read porn. I've even posed for an erotic zine. I don't have any issue with it if everyone involved wants to do what they're doing, and is legally able to understand what's happening. I do think that forms of porn should be banned and much, much more must be done to stop human trafficking, sex slavery, and other forms of exploitation (and if that involves doing away with wide swaths of the porn industry, so be it -- humans have found things to wank to since we figured out that jerking it was possible).

[SrMaryEloquentia]

@velocirapture , @nastyhobbitses: I agree with both of you...

I'm bothered by this whole "porn is the new plague" rhetoric.

First of, what's "new" about it? There antique greek drinking dishes (holding at least a quart or so of wine!) that reveal very explicit sexual scenes once the drink is downed...

But I guess it all boils down to the "all sexual sins are alike" issue in fundydom.

These people consider a Victoria's Secret catalogue porn. No wonder they don't see  that there's difference between adults watching other consenting adults having sex versus child pornography of kids being raped.

A lot of fundies would probably a lot more relaxed, joyful and all around pleasant if they found themselves a cosy corner of the internet every once in a while to jerk off.

 

[VelociRapture]

38 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

@VelociRapture, I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. Porn runs the gamut from barely titillating to downright immoral (child porn). I have no use for any of it, but legal activities engaged in by adults are not my concern. I surmise that child predators use child porn for grooming purposes, so perhaps that is her perspective.

I don't have a problem if she supports making all porn illegal or shaming those who enjoy it. It doesn't matter one bit what she supports, it's a settled issue in the USA. If I did use porn, I wouldn't care what ES thought. Her opinion is just one opinion among many. 

I agree with your first paragraph completely. She has every right to her opinion - she went through an absolute nightmare and has fully earned the right to hold those views and share her opinion with the public. Like I said earlier, I'm constantly blown away by just how brave and eloquent she is when she discusses what happened to her. I'm six months younger than her and I can guarantee I wouldn't be capable of showing that type of strength.

I still don't accept or condone anyone acting like the morality police with porn in general though (and I'm speaking in general here, not about Elizabeth specifically.) Even though there's really no chance of it becoming completely illegal. I'm more than happy to see people raise awareness about porn addiction and the dangers of certain forms. But not advocating about an outright ban. I think it just seems like a slippery slope in some ways - if I say I'm ok with that then can I really say I'm not ok with advocating against other things, like birth control or marriage equality?

(I know there are big differences because there's really no chance of porn being outlawed, while there are groups constantly trying to outlaw birth control and marriage equality. But I would personally view myself as a hypocrite for distinguishing in that way.)

@nastyhobbitsesI agree completely. Especially in regards to finding ways to crack down on human trafficking and other repugnant forms of abuse.

(Also, I'm kind of impressed you posed for an erotic zine. I'm not even confident enough to strike a sexy seriously G-rated pose for my husband while wearing clothes - I always come across as being awkward as hell and we both end up laughing hysterically. )

[SrMaryEloquentia]

@nastyhobbitses has finished her dissertation today (per her status update) AND has posed in an erotic zine, thus being proof that a person can be both smart AND sexy! 

[SilverBeach]

The group she is working with is described as an "anti-porn advocacy group".  Need to do more research to see exactly what their activities entail. 

Human trafficking is so, so bad, I agree that it is a worthier target than porn. 

Smart and sexy have never been mutually exclusive! I intend to stay that way until I die.