Police officers: the good, the bad, and the off topic

[Boogalou]

This thread is in case anyone wants to continue the discussion about law enforcement that began in somewhere in the first 15 pages of the Duggar's Fox Interview thread here viewtopic.php?f=87&t=26277

[Bethella]

Should I say that I've allowed a police officer in my house? I've even had him (and his wife) over for dinner! :roll: Luckily he didn't arrest me for burning the rolls. :lol:

[notreality]

I'm married to one :shhh:

[Fascinated]

As a young girl I was taught that if I got lost, or needed help, I should find a constable on the corner, because there was always a constable on a nearby corner. As an adult, my opinion of our local police force has changed. Of course I would still call them for help but somehow these days it almost feels like they are the enemy. They are lurking ( :lol: ) in every hidden alley with their radar guns or camped just up the road from a stop sign that people commonly roll through (due to lack of traffic) or parked near an intersection with turning restrictions at certain hours, always hiding.

And they no longer just use the traditional unmarked black Fords but now hide in suvs or small cars of different colours. Now, I realize that they will only stop drivers who are breaking some traffic law, and I understand the force has a budget and police are required to hand out tickets. I also understand that the individual officer may despise this duty. But I can't shake this 'us against them' feeling. It feels like they are just out to get otherwise good citizens. And they rarely seem to catch the real assholes we deal with every day on the roads and highways!

I realize the discussion was not really about this sort of thing though. And I do personally know a couple of police officers who are great people. And, like I said, I would call them for help in a heartbeat. But I would be terrified if I were to be interrogated and I would hope I would have the sense to keep my mouth shut until I had a lawyer. I fervently hope I am never in a situation to find out. And the bottom line is, where would we be as a society without law enforcement?

[MalteseBaby]

One of the sweetest men I ever knew was a patrol officer. I was an RN in ER, and he came in with many accident victims, etc. He loved me dearly until the day he died, at the age of 48. Because of circumstances, it was a one-sided thing, but we were close friends and I think I knew more about him than anyone else. He was extremely intelligent, hilariously funny, and deeply sensitive. He also had a huge heart. He wasn't afraid to cry.

I'd trust my life, and the lives of my loved ones, to most of LE. ( Just not the local Sheriff's Dept.- corrupt bunch of yahoos.)

The USA would destroy itself from within in 2 years without law enforcement officers. I think they are still our heroes.

[formergothardite]

There are situations where you for sure should have a lawyer when dealing with the police, but there are also plenty of situations where you don't need to and people need to be informed and know their rights so that they can make that decision.

~When the police came to ask if I had seen a pack of dogs running around because they had been attacking local farm animals, I spoke to them and IMO it would have been rather silly to freak out and refuse to say anything without a lawyer. I actually had seen the dogs early one morning and told them what road I saw them running down.

~When someone broke into a house near us the police came by to warn us and to ask if we had seen anything suspicious. Again, it would have looked really strange if we had refused to speak to the police without a lawyer.

-I witnessed a car accident and stayed to talk to the police. I really don't think I needed a lawyer there.

I don't think it is wise to make the blanket statement "never talk to a police officer without a lawyer." because if I had followed that advice I would have looked guilty as hell in several of those instances and a simple situation could have easily turned complicated.

Is the poster in the other thread going to come here? I didn't participate in that because it was hard to keep up with it.

[Buzzard]

There are situations where you for sure should have a lawyer when dealing with the police, but there are also plenty of situations where you don't need to and people need to be informed and know their rights so that they can make that decision.

~When the police came to ask if I had seen a pack of dogs running around because they had been attacking local farm animals, I spoke to them and IMO it would have been rather silly to freak out and refuse to say anything without a lawyer. I actually had seen the dogs early one morning and told them what road I saw them running down.

~When someone broke into a house near us the police came by to warn us and to ask if we had seen anything suspicious. Again, it would have looked really strange if we had refused to speak to the police without a lawyer.

-I witnessed a car accident and stayed to talk to the police. I really don't think I needed a lawyer there.

I don't think it is wise to make the blanket statement "never talk to a police officer without a lawyer." because if I had followed that advice I would have looked guilty as hell in several of those instances and a simple situation could have easily turned complicated.

Is the poster in the other thread going to come here? I didn't participate in that because it was hard to keep up with it.

She was threatening a flounce so we'll see.

The police are not your enemy and they are not looking to arrest innocent people just for fun. Educate yourself on the laws in your jurisdiction. Ask for counsel if you are uncomfortable or think you may be in trouble. Obey the laws and you'll be fine.

[formergothardite]

I saw she was insulted at the idea of starting a thread just for this subject. Threads drift but sometimes a thread drift needs to be made into another thread. This is one of those instances and it wasn't an attack on her. I hope she does come back because I am genuinely interested in finding out why she thinks I would need a lawyer in those sorts of cases.

[nokidsmom]

I guess when Mr. No's car broke down a few weeks ago he should have told the policeman who stopped to help that he could only do it in the presence of a lawyer.

[Palimpsest]

I think we saw an extinction burst and then a fairly epic flounce. She may be back though.

It was not my intention to shut her down completely but sweeping generalizations always get to me -- on any subject. I usually like thread drift, but there was the sheer volume of lengthy posts shutting the whole thread down and a history of being rude and know-it-all. However, it was the ultra-patronizing: let me tell you ignorant sluts about the history of the police post that finally made me snap. :lol:

[Fascinated]

You guys....she TOOK HER AVATAR with her!

[formergothardite]

I think we saw an extinction burst and then a fairly epic flounce. She may be back though.

It was not my intention to shut her down completely but sweeping generalizations always get to me -- on any subject. I usually like thread drift, but there was the sheer volume of lengthy posts shutting the whole thread down and a history of being rude and know-it-all. However, it was the ultra-patronizing: let me tell you ignorant sluts about the history of the police post that finally made me snap. :lol:

It didn't seem to me like you were trying to shut her down, but she didn't show any desire to go start another thread so the discussion could continue. If she had done that, more people would have joined in and the conversation would have continued(she might not have liked the way the debate went, though). The majority of her posts seem to be in the Duggar forum. If she had ventured out she would have discovered that people disagree here all the time on all sorts of subjects. It wasn't a personal thing against her, it is just how the forum works. It didn't seem like she was used to people disagreeing with her.

[Four is Enough]

Well, originally I agreed with the poster who said never to talk to police without an attorney, and it was completely because I was flashing back to our interview with the Crimes Against Children unit police officers, who intimidated me, my husband, AND my son.

So I tried to clarify in Josh 8 what I meant, and I do really mean that I respect the police and the job they do. I also try to cooperate in most circumstances. BUT I will still state that when *I* or one of my loved ones is the subject of an investigation, we will speak to police only with an attorney present. Police have the scope to mislead and lie to people during interviews/ investigations, and they do it. Therefore, under those circumstances, I will not speak without counsel.

I really believed that the person who started the fracas meant the same thing, but I am not sure.

[DGayle]

Now, I realize that they will only stop drivers who are breaking some traffic law, and I understand the force has a budget and police are required to hand out tickets.

In the US, they stop people who AREN'T breaking the law too, and the courts give more weight to an officer's word. There's a conflict of interest, yet the officer's word gets more weight. I got a ticket for supposedly taking a sharp right turn at 60MPH. In a mid-90's top-heavy SUV. That would have rolled over going that fast. The officers' (2 of tem in the same car) supposed location where they supposedly saw me supposedly taking a sharp turn at 60MPH would have put them out of eyesight of where I was. I tried challenging it, but 2 officers against me and my pictures of the area and roll-over stats was too much against me, and I had to pay $290 for failing to stop at a stop sign (though no ticket was issued for supposedly speeding).

So no, they do NOT only pull over drivers who are breaking traffic law. In fact, in my state, it's illegal to have check-points, and so they routinely, on days like the 4th of July (our Independence Day) and New Year's Eve, come up with bogus reasons to pull people over, like driving too slow by going to speed limits (I was a passenger in a car where that happened), or "swerving" by legally changing lanes.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

You know, I've watched some of the videos of recent police shootings, and I usually think "I would comply, I would keep my hands where they could see them, I would verbally indicate I was cooperating but scared," etc. But, in some of them, I can understand why the young men reacted the way they did - with fear that ultimately led to escalation and death. One in particular - it was a white kid, actually - named Dillon Taylor - was being a mouthy, intoxicated 20 year old, and he was shot in the lungs and died in a puddle of blood on camera. It was really upsetting to watch (obviously), and I think of myself as (not being mouthy) maybe making a sudden move without realizing what I'm doing. SO MUCH of these situations is left to the discretion of the officer, and whether or not you ultimately are armed or committing a (serious) crime has little to do with their perceptions.

[FundieFarmer]

I grew up knowing that I could always trust police officers and go to them whenever I needed help. That was my understanding of police. Then, a former friend's boyfriend, an officer, stood in my very house and told a story of something he and his partner had done on the clock that chilled me to the bone. That day I knew that there were officers, though hopefully few and far between, who made those stories feasible. Last I heard, his promotion got killed after I reported it and he received several warnings for that and other unrelated issues, as he should.

The police force, heroes though I believe most of them are, is as dotted with people unfit for the job as every other profession, theirs is just deadlier. As far as only talking to police with a lawyer present, I think it kind of depends what's happening. If you're calling for help, maybe not. But if you're accused, yes, probably.

[ShepherdontheRock]

When growing up, I was taught to go to the police if you're a victim of a crime, and that they were the good guys, but not without the caveat of "if you're arrested, get a lawyer whether you're innocent or guilty."

I go to college in a city that has had a historically high crime rate, and there is a beefed up police presence on campus. While it may have been contributing to fewer armed robberies and assaults, there is also a general attitude about cops being more interested in busting an amateur pot dealer and ticketing underage drinkers than busting "real" criminals, and also a view that cops are racist, especially among black students, although this is also common among social justice and libertarian/anarchist types of many races.

Recently on my fb feed I saw a video of a couple people who were being arrested. They were part of a small scale black lives matter protest, and had been demonstrating illegally on a median of a big Street. The girl taking the video was arguing with some of the officers, who basically told her to take it to court. The video got outrage among a few students involved in social justice, especially because everyone who got arrested or a summons was black. I believe the charges were dropped, but I don't think she made the situation any better by getting belligerent with and cussing out some of the police officers, but I can understand her frustration, and maybe I would become belligerent if I felt like I needed to fight.

I'd rather shut up and lawyer up though. I think most police officers try to do the right thing, but maybe not trained to de-escalate well enough. I think people should also understand that sometimes they are simply doing their jobs and not try to antagonize them.

[Palimpsest]

Obviously bad things happen and I've been as shocked as anyone with some of the recent events. Being pulled over for DWB is a real thing as is being arrested WB.

Speaking of student protests, I felt so sorry for the Divest Harvard crowd in April. They had done all this training about resisting police and really, really, wanted to get arrested for blockading buildings! Instead, the administrators and staff just worked elsewhere or remotely and left them alone. It was a weeklong protest but the blockading students got bored after a couple of hours every day and were gone by 10:00 am, so everyone could go back to their offices. It didn't affect the university functioning at all and no-one got arrested. Using 1960s tactics in the 21st century was a waste of time. BTW, I was tear gassed at a student demo in my youth. Not a pleasant experience.

I don't argue with police officers. They have guns. It is much better to shut up and comply quietly, but lawyer-up ASAP if necessary. Mind you, I've only ever been pulled over twice by traffic cops. Once for an expired sticker :oops: and once for speeding :oops: :oops: . I was let off with a verbal warning both times probably because I was polite and apologetic. On the speeding violation, the officer told me off very sternly but then handed my canine passengers doggy cookies.

I think the Naugler tapes are good examples of well-trained officers trying to calm a volatile situation and still get their job done properly. Nicole practically forced an arrest on herself. My professional experience has been working with and training police around DV and abuse cases. Those officers have been absolutely amazing. However, they do get frustrated at being called out multiple times on the same DV situation. See OJ Simpson. They framed the right guy, IMO.

[Fascinated]

I agree that the officers in the Naugler case showed great restraint. Granted, they knew they were being recorded, but they handled Nicole very well given, as you say, that she was practically begging to be arrested.

Funny cop story: a few years ago my husband was turning right at a stop sign and sort of partially turned the wheels while coming to a complete stop. As this is a three way stop on a residential street, many drivers do a roll through, as it is patently clear when there are no other cars anywhere in sight.

Anyway, a police officer had set up shop up the street to catch these rolling stop sign offenders. So, after my hubs had continued through the turn, she stopped him. And declared that he wasn't planning to stop! She told him what he was thinking! Which was that he was planning to go straight through the sign before he stopped. She was, literally, the thought police!

He calmly and respectfully told her that she was being an asshole, and she had no choice but to let him go. He still can't believe it.

[Trynn]

In criminal justice class, we learned that there are so many laws that if a cop wants to pull you over, they can ALWAYS find a reason.

Like someone said up thread, it feels like a lot of the times they invent reasons to pull you over on certain dates too. New Year's Day driving home, my cousin was pulled over. One of her headlights was out, and my cousin genuinely didn't know. It was good to have someone tell her, because that sort of thing is dangerous, but I also can't help but thinking they were on the lookout for buzzed/drunk drivers and kind of wanted an excuse. (I kind of think it's both, actually.)

My cousin dealt with it by being respectful, and was just told to get it fixed on X days. I will send her an email informing her that next time she is to lawyer up. That officer couldn't possibly have been trying to help her stay safe in the road! My cousin could've got arrested! (Actually I was kind of worried about the situation escalating and them finding my weed... But that didn't happen.)

[NoneandDoneinCali]

So, this reflects terribly on me, but I have a DUI. And the cop pulled me over because my bike rack was allegedly obscuring my license plate. I am not going to make excuses for driving while impaired, but I DID have that bike rack for a couple of years before I pulled out of a bar's parking lot, and was never pulled over.

Anyways, the DUI really changed my perception - because I went from being polite but feeling I was "in the right" or had a leg to stand on in my interactions with police, to being in the system, and basically being at the mercy of any officer who I come into contact with. I don't drive drunk and don't actually drink much at all these days, but I am always terrified of coming into contact with the police again, because it's true. They can ALWAYS find probable cause. I'm not going to go into detail about what happened with me, but a cop touched me inappropriately when I was in handcuffs, and later said I was resisting (I wasn't - I admitted I was drunk immediately, cooperated fully, and have a witness in the form of the passenger in my car that I was absolutely compliant). I was mocked when I was in a holding cell by a C.O. that made fun of me for crying (just crying, not dramatically weeping). And while in jail, I had a CO tell me to clean a toilet - with a toothbrush that had about 3 bristles and no gloves - who then proceeded to stand over me, verbally berate me, tell me she HOPED she could provoke me so she could "use her new nightstick," etc.

Anywho, that was a real game-changer lol. I used to march in peaceful protests, but I am afraid to now. I would rather avoid the police than speak up if I see something wrong (like a cop pushing someone in my neighborhood too roughly to the ground when they weren't resisting - I put my head down and walked away, and I still have terrible guilt about that).

[notreality]

So, this reflects terribly on me, but I have a DUI. And the cop pulled me over because my bike rack was allegedly obscuring my license plate. I am not going to make excuses for driving while impaired, but I DID have that bike rack for a couple of years before I pulled out of a bar's parking lot, and was never pulled over.

Anyways, the DUI really changed my perception - because I went from being polite but feeling I was "in the right" or had a leg to stand on in my interactions with police, to being in the system, and basically being at the mercy of any officer who I come into contact with. I don't drive drunk and don't actually drink much at all these days, but I am always terrified of coming into contact with the police again, because it's true. They can ALWAYS find probable cause. I'm not going to go into detail about what happened with me, but a cop touched me inappropriately when I was in handcuffs, and later said I was resisting (I wasn't - I admitted I was drunk immediately, cooperated fully, and have a witness in the form of the passenger in my car that I was absolutely compliant). I was mocked when I was in a holding cell by a C.O. that made fun of me for crying (just crying, not dramatically weeping). And while in jail, I had a CO tell me to clean a toilet - with a toothbrush that had about 3 bristles and no gloves - who then proceeded to stand over me, verbally berate me, tell me she HOPED she could provoke me so she could "use her new nightstick," etc.

Anywho, that was a real game-changer lol. I used to march in peaceful protests, but I am afraid to now. I would rather avoid the police than speak up if I see something wrong (like a cop pushing someone in my neighborhood too roughly to the ground when they weren't resisting - I put my head down and walked away, and I still have terrible guilt about that).

Wow! I'm really sorry that happened to you. That CO officer exposed you to ecoli and other pathogens by making you clean a toilet with no gloves and a toothbrush. What a crazy bitch. You do have the right to make a report against her. Even if she didn't get in trouble it would be in her personnel file so if she gets in trouble later there would be a record of previous complaints. The same is true of the officer who touched you. If you make a complaint it immediately goes to Internal Affairs and they have to investigate- and that will be in his personnel file. If he gets more complaints in the future they will see a pattern and he won't be given the benefit of the doubt.

I worked as an assistant apartment manager and my boss was a former corrections officer. I found out months into my employment that he had gone to trial for sexually assaulting two women prisoners and that is why he was no longer in corrections. It was really scary for me because I didn't know exactly what had happened (he claimed it was consensual) He was only found guilty of official misconduct but that was because at the time our state didn't have a law that prisoners couldn't consent. A few months after his trial there was a new law passed that said prisoners could not consent- so if he had done what he did after that he would have went to prison and been a registered sex offender.

[Maggie Mae]

Wow! I'm really sorry that happened to you. That CO officer exposed you to ecoli and other pathogens by making you clean a toilet with no gloves and a toothbrush. What a crazy bitch. You do have the right to make a report against her. Even if she didn't get in trouble it would be in her personnel file so if she gets in trouble later there would be a record of previous complaints. The same is true of the officer who touched you. If you make a complaint it immediately goes to Internal Affairs and they have to investigate- and that will be in his personnel file. If he gets more complaints in the future they will see a pattern and he won't be given the benefit of the doubt.

I worked as an assistant apartment manager and my boss was a former corrections officer. I found out months into my employment that he had gone to trial for sexually assaulting two women prisoners and that is why he was no longer in corrections. It was really scary for me because I didn't know exactly what had happened (he claimed it was consensual) He was only found guilty of official misconduct but that was because at the time our state didn't have a law that prisoners couldn't consent. A few months after his trial there was a new law passed that said prisoners could not consent- so if he had done what he did after that he would have went to prison and been a registered sex offender.

What makes you think that "filing a report" would do anything?

The system is corrupt. The complaint probably wouldn't even make it to the personnel file.

I had a lot of run-ins with the police when I was a teen/young adult. There is nothing that anyone can say to convince me that going to police to complain about police is a good use of time. Once you are in the system, you are a criminal and nothing you do or say will ever change that. Once you are labeled a criminal, every run in with the police is tempered by that. Even if you didn't do anything wrong in the first place.

[notreality]

What makes you think that "filing a report" would do anything?

The system is corrupt. The complaint probably wouldn't even make it to the personnel file.

I had a lot of run-ins with the police when I was a teen/young adult. There is nothing that anyone can say to convince me that going to police to complain about police is a good use of time. Once you are in the system, you are a criminal and nothing you do or say will ever change that. Once you are labeled a criminal, every run in with the police is tempered by that. Even if you didn't do anything wrong in the first place.

I'm basing it off my husband's law enforcement career. He has been an officer since 98 and is now a sergeant. Part of becoming a sergeant is being trained in the IA department. Every complaint of abuse is taken seriously and every report is in the personnel file (even the frivolous ones where someone complains about being given a ticket) There have been several officers in his department denied promotions, demoted, or fired for inappropriate behavior. The IA department doesn't cover for anyone- they are not supervised by nor accountable to other police officers. They are chosen based on their performance and ethical behavior as an officer and supervisor and given extensive training in IA.

An officer who does something illegal or inappropriate will most likely do it again. The more evidence they have the faster they can get rid of him even if he is represented by the union. The union won't defend you if you clearly broke the law or the department rules. YMMV of course but no- not all departments are corrupt and it is not worthless to file complaints. You might not know the outcome but at least you know you are leaving a paper trail that will follow that officer throughout his career.

I do agree with you that once you are in the system it makes it harder to deal with law enforcement in the future. My husband and I both have juvenile records and he had a DUI when he was 18. That makes him more likely to try to give kids and young people a warning when he can so they won't be in the system. He tries not to arrest young people if there is any way to get the situation under control without having to make a new criminal out of a kid doing something stupid.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

I did file a complain about not receiving appropriate medical care - I spent 2 weeks in jail (my county is very hard on DUI's - no slap on the wrist in this area). I am bipolar 2 (meaning I have more depression than mania) and was unable to get my meds, in spite of bringing them in, having a doctor's note, and having a judge's order to receive them within 48 hours (I was able to turn myself in a week after my court date, so I could get my medical stuff in order). I didn't see a doctor or receive my medication for the entire time I was there, until the last day, when a CO asked if I would rather go home or see the doctor. That is bad enough, but there were women in there who had epilepsy and heart conditions with similar judge's orders, and they also did not receive their meds. At least mine wasn't going to kill me (though it did trigger a year-long depressive episode, but obviously circumstances played into that as well). So the complaint went exactly nowhere. I was never contacted, and the complaint itself was lost (allegedly).

There was so much grossness, improper handling of food, stuff that would make OSHA's toes curl ... you would barf lol.

There is no way in hell that a complaint against any of the officers, or not being able to get band-aids for open sores in spite of a STAPH outbreak, or not having access to hair ties when working in the (piles and piles of soiled) laundry, etc would have made a difference. I already feel like a sitting duck, as I have a restricted driver's license, but sometimes need to drive places other than work (job interviews, to the store to buy a large bag of dog food, to the doctor), and technically that is breaking probation, which can send me back to jail. So I keep my mouth shut. Yes, once you're in the system, you're f*cked. And I am white, educated, articulate (I like to think, anyways), polite, and over thirty. I can only imagine what it is like to be a young person of color. That's why I was saying, I can understand where some of these young men are coming from, running from the cops when they weren't committing a crime. If I hadn't had this experience myself, I would probably think "oh, just cooperate with the police, or you'll make it worse!"