RCA vs. PCA?

[GenerationCedarchip]

This may not be the board for this discussion, but since we do have folks here who are knowledgeable on Things Reformed, I figured I'd throw it out here.

 

I was reading this post by Kevin DeYoung and it details his church going from the Reformed Church in America to the PCA denomination. I think of both as reformed denominations and from what I've read of DeYoung, many would probably consider his church "fundie-lite" - ish. I know some folks fairly far into VF circles who follow his teachings as well, though. Perhaps he has fundie crossover appeal.

 

I wouldn't consider myself an expert on the gazillion reformed Baptist and Presby denominations, but I somewhere had the idea that RCA and PCA were both on the more conservative end of things. I'm not familiar with RCA, though, because we don't have any RCA churches here. Does anyone know what the main differences are between the two?

[FundieFarmer]

Hi! Interesting question. I grew up PCUSA (which is now EPC), went to a PCA college, consider myself OPC (though not of the fundie variety), and have family that is both RPC/RCA and ARP. All of those are Presbyterian denominations, but they aren't all of them. Lost yet? :lol:

I was also a member of the PCUSA church as it transitioned to EPC, so I'm really familiar with how the battle can go.

Basically, this is the order from liberal to most conservative:

PUCSA > EPC > PCA > RPC/RCA > ARP > OPC.

Typically, only those from PCA on to the right are considered reformed.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Okay - that helps some. So, RCA and RPC are the same? I had thought they must be different denominations because I knew RPC was very conservative/reformed, and I'd agree that they are probably to the right of the PCA in general simply because PCA is a big denomination that covers a lot of territory doctrine-wise.

[jerkit]

Hi! Interesting question. I grew up PCUSA (which is now EPC), went to a PCA college, consider myself OPC (though not of the fundie variety), and have family that is both RPC/RCA and ARP. All of those are Presbyterian denominations, but they aren't all of them. Lost yet? :lol:

I was also a member of the PCUSA church as it transitioned to EPC, so I'm really familiar with how the battle can go.

Basically, this is the order from liberal to most conservative:

PUCSA > EPC > PCA > RPC/RCA > ARP > OPC.

Typically, only those from PCA on to the right are considered reformed.

Where does Bible Presbyterian fit on your scale?

[FundieFarmer]

Colloquially, RPC and RPC are interchangeable. ARP is the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, and is a small denomination that, to the best of my understanding, broke off from the RPC in order to more strictly honor Calvinism. Once you start going right of the PCA, you get some very strict Calvinism. PCA is still very strict in its interpretation of the Bible, but is more liberal in terms of social culture of the church.

Bible Presbyterian would be right of the OPC. They forbid alcohol. For the most part right of the PCA, churches are small and moderately legalistic. It really depends on the church culture how strict they can be with their members; I've been to churches where women dress like the Duggars, and some where they look like normal, fashion-forward women. You don't really find that left of RPC.

[FaithAndReason]

PCUSA is still PCUSA. It hasn't transitioned to anything. Some PCUSA churches left to be a part of more conservative Presbyterian branches. However, PCUSA still exists and is the main denomination for most Presbyterians.

[FundieFarmer]

PCUSA is still PCUSA. It hasn't transitioned to anything. Some PCUSA churches left to be a part of more conservative Presbyterian branches. However, PCUSA still exists and is the main denomination for most Presbyterians.

FaithAndReason is right- sorry I didn't make that totally clear in my post. PCUSA remains what it is, but the church I grew up in changed to EPC.

[lynn0810]

I grew up in the RCA. It has a very close relationship with the PCUSA, so much so that if you need a pastor you can "call" one from the PCUSA and vice versa. The Christian Reformed Church of America is more conservative than the RCA. All are Calvinists, but differ on the nit picky stuff. I am not sure what the CRCA's view on women is, but the RCA and PCUSA ordain women, and let them serve as deacons and elders. They started durning WWII, and it became a "conscious clause". If your church didn't believe women should hold those roles, they could still be an RCA church. They removed that clause a couple of years ago and a lot of churches left. Last I knew of there is a big split of homosexuality. A lot of churches want to leave, but when a church joins the RCA they have to sign over the property to the RCA. Makes it very difficult.

The RCA and anything Baptist do not get along.

RCA churches vary church to church. It really depends on how many old Dutch folks are part of the congregation. Most also don't teach any of the actual beliefs of the RCA. That seems to be the same for most PCA churches I have encountered.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I grew up in the RCA. It has a very close relationship with the PCUSA, so much so that if you need a pastor you can "call" one from the PCUSA and vice versa. The Christian Reformed Church of America is more conservative than the RCA. All are Calvinists, but differ on the nit picky stuff. I am not sure what the CRCA's view on women is, but the RCA and PCUSA ordain women, and let them serve as deacons and elders. They started durning WWII, and it became a "conscious clause". If your church didn't believe women should hold those roles, they could still be an RCA church. They removed that clause a couple of years ago and a lot of churches left. Last I knew of there is a big split of homosexuality. A lot of churches want to leave, but when a church joins the RCA they have to sign over the property to the RCA. Makes it very difficult.

The RCA and anything Baptist do not get along.

RCA churches vary church to church. It really depends on how many old Dutch folks are part of the congregation. Most also don't teach any of the actual beliefs of the RCA. That seems to be the same for most PCA churches I have encountered.

Thank you for the clarification. I wasn't sure where the RCA fit into things, but it sounds like it must be to the left of PCA and even EPC if they're in communion with the PCUSA because most reformed denominations do not have the closest ties with the PCUSA.

[FundieFarmer]

I grew up in the RCA. It has a very close relationship with the PCUSA, so much so that if you need a pastor you can "call" one from the PCUSA and vice versa. The Christian Reformed Church of America is more conservative than the RCA. All are Calvinists, but differ on the nit picky stuff. I am not sure what the CRCA's view on women is, but the RCA and PCUSA ordain women, and let them serve as deacons and elders. They started durning WWII, and it became a "conscious clause". If your church didn't believe women should hold those roles, they could still be an RCA church. They removed that clause a couple of years ago and a lot of churches left. Last I knew of there is a big split of homosexuality. A lot of churches want to leave, but when a church joins the RCA they have to sign over the property to the RCA. Makes it very difficult.

The RCA and anything Baptist do not get along.

RCA churches vary church to church. It really depends on how many old Dutch folks are part of the congregation. Most also don't teach any of the actual beliefs of the RCA. That seems to be the same for most PCA churches I have encountered.

Thanks for sharing that. My experience with the denomination has always been very conservative churches, but it's interesting you mentioned the old Dutch culture. That's very strong and in my experience has always been very conservative.

Thanks for the more accurate background! Looks like I was off.

[lynn0810]

Thanks for sharing that. My experience with the denomination has always been very conservative churches, but it's interesting you mentioned the old Dutch culture. That's very strong and in my experience has always been very conservative.

Thanks for the more accurate background! Looks like I was off.

I think in Michigan (the obvious RCA & CRCA paradise) it is still pretty conservative. The church I grew up in is pretty conservative, but there are a couple of very large churches and they are pretty liberal. I have found with all of them, no one really has a clue what doctrine they are supposed to follow. People were shocked when the pastor broke the news that the RCA does not follow "Left Behind" theology.

[FundieFarmer]

Yeah, the Michigan Bible Belt is something else. I didn't really know about it until I went to undergrad (PCA) and about 1/2 of the school was from Michigan, and were old Dutch conservative. And these kids made PCA kids look like liberal maniacs...so as the PCUSA heathen that I was, it was quite the experience.

It's interesting how widely interpreted Presbyterianism can be. The church where I grew up doesn't even follow the Catechism or Confessions and yet proclaims Presbyterian. It's very interesting. I agree that there's confusion after doctrine even within the microdenominations.

[Walking Cat Bed]

And then there's the RPCUS (Reformed Presbyterian Church in the United States), which is...interesting. I'm not sure how much further right you can get than them.

My undergrad college hosts their annual conference, and I worked the summer school/summer camp RA gig for three years. We were advised to wear sleeved shirts and at least capris to avoid "defrauding" the menfolk, and while we were "welcome" at any of their services...We held check-out in the chapel on the final morning, and that was the only time we were all in that building.

At least their schedule was structured and packed enough that we could do other things (like our own summer classes), and they had a fairly early, conference-wide, self-imposed curfew.

[ladidah]

Yes, lynn0810 is correct. The RCA is part of the (traditionally Dutch-American) family of Reformed churches. It varies a great deal in culture and theology; many RCA churches are more liberal than churches in the much larger Christian Reformed (CRC) denomination, but some are more conservative. The other denominations mentioned in this thread—the ones with "Presbyterian" in the name—are all part of the Presbyterian tradition that originally came over from Scotland but has since become very Americanized.

The Presbyterian and Christian (Dutch) Reformed families hold many doctrines in common, but they don't have genealogical links to each other, at least not in their Stateside, post-Reformation forms.

DeYoung has always been a bit of an outlier among RCA writers in his close affinity with evangelical Presbyterianism. I'm not at all surprised he's officially going to the PCA.