Doug Wilson: Only Xtian Kids are a Blessing

[DomWackTroll]

"I believe with all my heart that children are a blessing, and more children are more of a blessing. When children are being brought up to love the Lord their God, no one believes more heartily than I that the more we have of that the better. Don’t forget that every Saturday evening, when we celebrate our Sabbath dinner, our house is teeming with a covenantal future. That delights me — but it delights me because the kids are all Christians."

Spanky weighs in in the comments section.

dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/not-that-kind-of-blessing.html

Doug's been in hot water before for saying that it's not so bad when heathen women have abortions, 'cuz their fetuses won't be Kovenant Kidz anyway, so...

[NotALoserLikeYou]

"I believe with all my heart that children are a blessing, and more children are more of a blessing. When children are being brought up to love the Lord their God, no one believes more heartily than I that the more we have of that the better. Don’t forget that every Saturday evening, when we celebrate our Sabbath dinner, our house is teeming with a covenantal future. That delights me — but it delights me because the kids are all Christians."

Spanky weighs in in the comments section.

dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/not-that-kind-of-blessing.html

Doug's been in hot water before for saying that it's not so bad when heathen women have abortions, 'cuz their fetuses won't be Kovenant Kidz anyway, so...

What?! What if they grow up and become Christians? Or does he not think any spawn of a heathen woman would turn out ok?

[Cleopatra7]

"I believe with all my heart that children are a blessing, and more children are more of a blessing. When children are being brought up to love the Lord their God, no one believes more heartily than I that the more we have of that the better. Don’t forget that every Saturday evening, when we celebrate our Sabbath dinner, our house is teeming with a covenantal future. That delights me — but it delights me because the kids are all Christians."

Spanky weighs in in the comments section.

dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/not-that-kind-of-blessing.html

Doug's been in hot water before for saying that it's not so bad when heathen women have abortions, 'cuz their fetuses won't be Kovenant Kidz anyway, so...

This sounds like Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion, where the deaths of non-believers don't count, since they aren't part of the elect anyway.

[latraviata]

This sounds like Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion, where the deaths of non-believers don't count, since they aren't part of the elect anyway.

The funny thing is, in my country, traditionally the Roman Catholics always talked about children to be a blessing. Not the calvinists, they were the gloomy and negative ones. Blessing and the verb 'to bless' were only used by catholics not protestants.

[August]

Well, 97% of babies are Marxists, which makes me happy.

[FloraDoraDolly]

Sounds very Calvinistic. Other groups of fundies (Baptists, Pentecostals) believe that nobody is born a Christian. Everyone is born a sinner in need of salvation. A child becomes a Christian when he/she chooses to accept Jesus as his/her Lord and Savior and get saved. Growing up in a Christian environment makes it more likely that the child will decide to get saved, but not all of them do. The parents and clergy can try to guilt or pressure the kid into getting saved, but at the end of the day it's up to that individual.

[Cleopatra7]

Sounds very Calvinistic. Other groups of fundies (Baptists, Pentecostals) believe that nobody is born a Christian. Everyone is born a sinner in need of salvation. A child becomes a Christian when he/she chooses to accept Jesus as his/her Lord and Savior and get saved. Growing up in a Christian environment makes it more likely that the child will decide to get saved, but not all of them do. The parents and clergy can try to guilt or pressure the kid into getting saved, but at the end of the day it's up to that individual.

But if you're a Calvinist, don't you assume that those who do become Christians do so because they are members of the elect? At the same time, isn't it presumptive to assume that one's children are members of the elect simply because they're your children?

[NotALoserLikeYou]

If you're Calvinist wouldn't it be fair to say that all unborn babies who die must not have been of the elect?? So why save any?

[uber frau]

But if you're a Calvinist, don't you assume that those who do become Christians do so because they are members of the elect? At the same time, isn't it presumptive to assume that one's children are members of the elect simply because they're your children?

Believe it or not, presumptive regeneration is actually a thing (and named as such) in some Calvinist denominations. I'm not sure about Dough (the other tool)'s views on the matter but this particular spiel of his looks like a logical extension of that set of beliefs. The ones that reject that particular quirk of doctrine basically take the stance that, since you never know who is elect (it's between the individual and God), humans are duty bound to treat every human being as if they are elect and to apply the second part of Jesus 'Golden Rule' (the bit about loving your neighbour as yourself). That's how it works in theory anyway. In practice they're pretty lousy at loving anyone. Probably because their so lousy at loving themselves, but I suppose it's hard to love yourself when your biggest doctrinal point is about you being lower than a bit of dog shit on the bottom of God's shoe.

[Trynn]

Sabbath? Is this guy adventist? I don't know any non Adventists who refer to it as sabbath.

[16strong]

Well, 97% of babies are Marxists, which makes me happy.

Why are you so happy about that? It means a whole 3% of kids are NOT Marxist. That's a HUGE problem. The moment we see it as acceptable for ANY children to not be Marxists is the moment society starts falling apart. Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children? :lol:

[Verin Sedai]

Believe it or not, presumptive regeneration is actually a thing (and named as such) in some Calvinist denominations. I'm not sure about Dough (the other tool)'s views on the matter but this particular spiel of his looks like a logical extension of that set of beliefs. The ones that reject that particular quirk of doctrine basically take the stance that, since you never know who is elect (it's between the individual and God), humans are duty bound to treat every human being as if they are elect and to apply the second part of Jesus 'Golden Rule' (the bit about loving your neighbour as yourself). That's how it works in theory anyway. In practice they're pretty lousy at loving anyone. Probably because their so lousy at loving themselves, but I suppose it's hard to love yourself when your biggest doctrinal point is about you being lower than a bit of dog shit on the bottom of God's shoe.

I never, ever understood this even when I was supposed to believe in it, but yes, Doug Wilson does believe in some sort of presumptive regeneration, in that the promises of baptism and the covenant must be TRUE. Not believing that baptism is effectual would be doubting God's word. I don't know about how it works for kids who were baptised/raised in Christian homes who subsequently leave... probably the usual hand-waving about not enough faith or not being a true baptism or true Christian home. I don't know whether I explained this well or not, but I just remember someone describing it as "God's grandchildren".

They also practice paedocommunion (the administration of the Lord's Supper to extremely small children who may or may not have had any sort of "conversion" experience) because they presume their children to be so strongly within the covenant that this is okay.

[uber frau]

Sabbath? Is this guy adventist? I don't know any non Adventists who refer to it as sabbath.

Again, some Calvinists do. They've basically lifted a fairly conservative Christian interpretation of 'Sabbath' practices (no working other than acts of 'charity and necessity'-insert long and boring hair splitting about what is or is not necessary. Don't worry about the charity bit because no one ever does any anyway, can't have anyone hobnobbing with the heathens.) and superimposed them onto the Sunday. For many of them 'Sabbath' simply means 'Sunday'.

[August]

Why are you so happy about that? It means a whole 3% of kids are NOT Marxist. That's a HUGE problem. The moment we see it as acceptable for ANY children to not be Marxists is the moment society starts falling apart. Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children? :lol:

Don't worry! 42% are Baha'i, and the over lap covers the 3%. The real crisis comes after 12 months, when they convert wholesale to Libertarianism.

[RachelB]

Again, some Calvinists do. They've basically lifted a fairly conservative Christian interpretation of 'Sabbath' practices (no working other than acts of 'charity and necessity'-insert long and boring hair splitting about what is or is not necessary. Don't worry about the charity bit because no one ever does any anyway, can't have anyone hobnobbing with the heathens.) and superimposed them onto the Sunday. For many of them 'Sabbath' simply means 'Sunday'.

My favorite conversations over at the PB (for some definition of "favorite," anyway) involve people talking each other out of the impulse to do charity. That and explaining why the book of James doesn't mean what it appears to.

YOWZA.

[YPestis]

Hm, I always suspected that some fundies held that children growing up in "real" Christian homes are of higher value than those in "nonChristian" homes. I can't believe anyone would openly say that, you know, all that "we are all children of God" stuff, but I think this idea subconsciously percolates in more than a few fundies' heads....

[uber frau]

My favorite conversations over at the PB (for some definition of "favorite," anyway) involve people talking each other out of the impulse to do charity. That and explaining why the book of James doesn't mean what it appears to.

YOWZA.

Link? (pretty pls?)

[Cleopatra7]

My favorite conversations over at the PB (for some definition of "favorite," anyway) involve people talking each other out of the impulse to do charity. That and explaining why the book of James doesn't mean what it appears to.

YOWZA.

Honestly, I don't know if I can take the Puritan Board. I just got off a thread where people were arguing about how geocentrism is true because the Bible (I did a separate thread about it), and that was enough for me.

[RachelB]

Link? (pretty pls?)

First and foremost, this thread: puritanboard.com/f25/homeless-luke-6-30-a-72181/

And I'm being a little ungenerous here, but the conversation on this thread does sort of devolve into "no one in America is poor!": puritanboard.com/f25/christians-compassion-poor-79906/

[salex]

But if you're a Calvinist, don't you assume that those who do become Christians do so because they are members of the elect? At the same time, isn't it presumptive to assume that one's children are members of the elect simply because they're your children?

Actually, Calvinists can believe that the nicest little old lady who has never missed church or sunday school (even at the right church) or done any purposeful sin may end up in hell-- if that is God's choice. And some jerk may well make it into heaven. Based on some of the Calvinists I've heard debate religion and society, if they are part of the elect, heaven will be filled with jerks.

[chissprincess]

Actually, Calvinists can believe that the nicest little old lady who has never missed church or sunday school (even at the right church) or done any purposeful sin may end up in hell-- if that is God's choice. And some jerk may well make it into heaven. Based on some of the Calvinists I've heard debate religion and society, if they are part of the elect, heaven will be filled with jerks.

Then what difference does it make what religion you are if the only thing deciding whether or not you get into heaven is God's choice? Or is this the religion I'm thinking of where one of the signs that you were part of the elect is belonging to that specific religion? ...Or am I just misunderstanding Calvinism, "the elect," and how one gets to heaven according to Calvinism entirely?

[uber frau]

No, that's it in a nutshell. But if you know you're elect (or presume), you're duty bound to live in accordance with God's law (which had a suspicious habit of looking like very conservative American values). Or, as one of the catechisms puts it, "it is impossible that those who are implanted into Christ by a true faith should not bring forth fruits of thankfulness." The most common example I remember compares this to the way ppl behave when they love someone; you want to do the right thing by the other person, not to make them love you, but because that's simply the right thing to do for someone you love.