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Why do I argue with them? - Submission and Facebook


Guest magadociousrex

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Guest Anonymous

Maybe its because I hope that someday they'll get out of the fundie lifestyle...

but i'm currently having a heated argument about "submission" with a fundy friend's boyfriend on facebook.

He's a moron and is trying to tell me that even as a NON christian, i'm mandated to submit to my husband. LOLWUT? I'm Jewish, there's no such THING. Apparently its in Genesis. This person isn't using any kind of exegesis what so ever , he's literally taking it at FACE VALUE. But he's glossing over the not so happy parts of Genesis, you know about the slave owning, and the marriages with multiple wives.

Why WHY do I even bother guys WHY. Maybe its because while I wasn't in that deep, when I was in high school I didn't think critically about my religion, i just did what the catholic church said because they said it. (I used to be Catholic).

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I keep finding myself in arguments with random people about stuff like that. It's usually with strangers over the internet, but it occasionally trickles over into real life too. I've learned the best way to handle it is to calmly and clearly make my point. If the conversation is civil and communication seems open, engage and try to keep emotion out of it.

Otherwise I just take a deep breath, realize that there's nothing I can do about getting the other person's head out of their ass, and remove myself from the discussion before it starts to affect my mood in a serious way. That part is very hard, but I've discovered it's crucial to my sanity sometimes. :roll:

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Guest Anonymous
I keep finding myself in arguments with random people about stuff like that. It's usually with strangers over the internet, but it occasionally trickles over into real life too. I've learned the best way to handle it is to calmly and clearly make my point. If the conversation is civil and communication seems open, engage and try to keep emotion out of it.

Otherwise I just take a deep breath, realize that there's nothing I can do about getting the other person's head out of their ass, and remove myself from the discussion before it starts to affect my mood in a serious way. That part is very hard, but I've discovered it's crucial to my sanity sometimes. :roll:

I am actually really calm.

This guy is literally pulling s**t out of his ass, and claiming that i'm not a good Jew because I don't submit to my husband. O_O

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Maybe you could explain to him that there are different sects of Judaism and some believe in wifely submission while others do not, just like in Christianity? I'm not trying to legitimize wifely submission or anything but it does exist in Hasidic and Orthodox sects.

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Guest Anonymous
Maybe you could explain to him that there are different sects of Judaism and some believe in wifely submission while others do not, just like in Christianity? I'm not trying to legitimize wifely submission or anything but it does exist in Hasidic and Orthodox sects.

Its not REALLY submission though. I don't know anyone who is Hasidic, but I do know a handful of Orthodox women and they're anything BUT submissive.

This guy is the type of guy who is "woman in kitchen, barefoot perpetually pregnant, can't work outside of the house blah blah blah"

Every Orthodox woman I know either has a job outside of the house, or she's working to support the family in some capacity.

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tell them the bible was written for people 2 to 3 thousand years ago. We have changed and woman are not property anymore. don't like it go live in a hovel and give up your computer.

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Guest Anonymous
tell them the bible was written for people 2 to 3 thousand years ago. We have changed and woman are not property anymore. don't like it go live in a hovel and give up your computer.

I was tempted, seriously to make that point... but instead I called him ignorant and signed out of facebook....

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I was tempted, seriously to make that point... but instead I called him ignorant and signed out of facebook....

really about lal you can do.

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You argue, because you're unable to fathom that someone can be so completely ignorant.

Anyhoo...you might want to tell him that Judaism & Christianity are two different religions, & that Jews do not even maybe, read the bible the same way Christians (& especially fundie Christians do). Therefore, he can argue all he wants about biblical submission, but it only applies to Christians (fundie Christians, that is).

Here's a link to an orthodo jewish woman's critique of this exact question. In fact, her discussion critiques one of FJ's favorite bloggers on the topic....the lovely miss Anna T. Here's the link: amotherinisrael.com/submission-judaism-marriage-women/

Edited b/c her name is Anna T. not Lina T.

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Who cares if he thinks you're a bad Jew. You know you're not. I don't really care what adults do with their own lives. I only care when they start trying to force everyone else (through legislation or indoctrination) of living just like them.

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It's not just that Jews read the Bible differently than fundies. Fundies read the Bible differently than most people, including most mainline and liberal Christians.

Like many people here (I have lurked for a while), I have fundies in my family and I have learned that it is downright impossible to have a reasonable conversation with them. You see, they know they are right which, in their mind, removes their need to have any kind of logic to their argument. And, (according to them) since they are reading the inspired word of God and know that they are correct and we are wrong, and the rest of us are pretty much going to hell, they don't care. I find fundies a fairly self-centred lot. It really is all about them.

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Your right, Daisyjane, it is pretty impossible to have an argument with them. They have so much invested in their beliefs, I think. And the cognitive dissonance, where they see any rational, reasonable argument right in front of them, but it interferes with that belief, causes a huge amount of resistance to build up. It's needful, to build a fortress around their mindset, and not let any FACTS tear it down.

(I have also been lurking, and really impressed by so many of the posters here.)

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Guest Anonymous

This guy is literally pulling s**t out of his ass, and claiming that i'm not a good Jew because I don't submit to my husband. O_O

I sure you were absolutely thrilled to come across a random non-Jewish person with a penis who can tell you all about how you're doing Judaism wrong!

The freaking hubris of some people is well nigh unbelievable.

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Guest Anonymous

The argument continued this morning. Apparently, i'm prideful, and my husband has no self respect because he doesn't force me to submit. (Last time I checked, we're not in "that" type of relationship....lol). But my favorite? "the idle rantings of an idle woman "

I just.... the vast stupidity of some people. IT HURTS>

I told him I felt sorry for his girlfriend and stated that my husband had more self respect than him, and I'm far FAR from idle.

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Guest Anonymous
The argument continued this morning. Apparently, i'm prideful, and my husband has no self respect because he doesn't force me to submit. (Last time I checked, we're not in "that" type of relationship....lol). But my favorite? "the idle rantings of an idle woman "

I just.... the vast stupidity of some people. IT HURTS>

I told him I felt sorry for his girlfriend and stated that my husband had more self respect than him, and I'm far FAR from idle.

As far as arguing with him, I can only quote the immortal Mark Twain:

"Never try teaching a pig to sing. All you'll do is waste your time and annoy the pig."

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The argument continued this morning. Apparently, i'm prideful, and my husband has no self respect because he doesn't force me to submit. (Last time I checked, we're not in "that" type of relationship....lol). But my favorite? "the idle rantings of an idle woman "

I just.... the vast stupidity of some people. IT HURTS>

I told him I felt sorry for his girlfriend and stated that my husband had more self respect than him, and I'm far FAR from idle.

I don't have a FB, so this may be a stupid question, but can you "defriend" him or block him without blocking your friend? As has been mentioned, arguing with him is as hopeless as teaching a pig to sing.

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Along the line of what Jan said....when you attempt to argue with a fool it makes it difficult for members of the audience to tell who is who!

You'll never change this guy. The more logical and reasonable you are the more entrenched in his warped ideology he will become. You see, like many fundies, he has created the perfect situation (in his mind) where he is always right. Because he is speaking the word of God (you're just too stupid to know it according to him) he is right, and because he is a man (and you just simply don't understand the significance of that, again, according to him) in his mind he will always be right and he doesn't NEED logic or reason.

Sometimes you just gotta know when to walk away and save yourself the grief.

At one point in my life the opinions of my fundie family members mattered to me. I wanted them to agree with me and I wanted them to engage in a reasonable conversation so they could understand my point view. Take it from someone who has been there, you're probably just banging your head against a really BIG brick wall.

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Tell him to go read or watch the videos of " Jew in the City". She is a funny, clever,,educated, Orthodox woman who posts videos and blogs about how a modern Jewish woman lives today while still following her religion.

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Urgh, I've seen something like this before. It was quite educational for me, I must say. It was on the Debating Christianity forum. There's a Jewish poster there who was explaining Judaism to a fundie, and how the Christian religion is basically based on a complete misunderstanding of Judaism (the fundie was saying that the Jewish people didn't recognize their own Messiah--and the Jewish poster pointed out that Jesus didn't fit the criteria for the Jewish Messiah). It was fascinating to read, but this fundie guy had decided HE was right, and that was all there was to it. Sad that he couldn't learn anything. So much arrogance! He knew better than the Jewish poster, you see, because...well, I don't know why, really (both posters were male, btw).

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Some people are so convinced that they themselves know everything about everything and cannot be convinced. Maybe blocking him would be best.

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Guest Anonymous

You know what really scares me? I just got an email from her aunt. I guess they ARE married and not just dating. or Courting or whatever the evangelical messianics do these days.

her exact words :

Thank you for saying that you feel sorry for Allyson. I am so worried and scared for her while living with that man

Melissa

I had said I felt sorry for her because this guy was such a jackass.

I hope she's ok and I hope she finds a way to get out of it. And soon. :?

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You never debate with people like that to change their minds. There's no common basis in worldview to even start with. It's possible to change the person you're debating with's mind but that's not the way to bet. You're debating for the sake of 3rd parties watching the debate. Your best bet in this situation is to get this person to expound upon their beliefs while expressing mild shock, in other words let his asshole views and personality speak for themselves. I am sorry your friend is married to this guy too--"forcing your wife to submit" throws up so many red flags I feel like I'm in China.

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Tell him to go read or watch the videos of " Jew in the City". She is a funny, clever,,educated, Orthodox woman who posts videos and blogs about how a modern Jewish woman lives today while still following her religion.

Ugh! Sorry clibbyjo, I don't mean this personally, I think you're full of great insight...but "Jew in the City?" She certainly is clever, funny, educated, etc.but also very MO...bordering on machmir MO/haredi orthodox!!!! I just don't see the OP's friend getting anything enlightening from them.

Regardless, the OP's "friend" seems to think that only fundie christian doctrine is right.

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You know what really scares me? I just got an email from her aunt. I guess they ARE married and not just dating. or Courting or whatever the evangelical messianics do these days.

her exact words :

Thank you for saying that you feel sorry for Allyson. I am so worried and scared for her while living with that man

Well, maybe they are just living together as her aunt stated. Living together does not = marriage *** (fineprint) unless you're in a province/territory/state that recognizes that those living together for 1 yr + are considered common law spouses.

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