Vision Forum Ministries: God as Masculine

[Deleted12]

1. God reveals Himself as masculine, not feminine. God is the eternal Father and the eternal Son, the Holy Spirit is also addressed as “He,†and Jesus Christ is a male. (Matt. 1:25; 28:19; Jn. 5:19; 16:13)

http://www.visionforumministries.org/ho ... archy.aspx

[Boltingmadonna]

First they say this:

Both man and woman are made in God’s image (their human characteristics enable them to reflect His character) and they are both called to exercise dominion over the earth. They share an equal worth as persons before God in creation and redemption.

But then the rest of the document is about male leadership, male authority, men run everything. Do they ever talk specifically about how what women do is LIKE GOD? Because if they don't, it's hard to see how this supposedly "equal worth" is anything but doubletalk. Men are clearly in God's image because they do everything God does: rule, reign, judge people, be righteous and dominating, clone themselves by using a woman who is subject to them, demand service and submission, etc. I don't see how women's roles as described here resemble anything a male God would do. The men are little God-images on earth, but the women just serve them. I don't see how they get to identify with God the way the men do, and if they can't do that, then they clearly aren't equal in any way that matters to the men.

[debrand]

Most Christians will admit that the god that they worship is genderless; yet, some people-not just fundies- get offended if god is referred to with a feminine pronoun.

Yes, throughout the Old Testament, writers use the masculine form to talk about god. In the New Testament, Jesus described god as a mother hen gathering her chicks under her wing. The founder of Christianity didn't mind viewing god as feminine.

[fundiefan]

Of course god is a man. If that weren't the case, male asshats wouldn't have any backing for patriarchy. They couldn't pretend there is such a thing, stated in the bible, as biblical patriarchy.

[notsocommon]

God, or aspects of God are described in the feminine several times in The Bible.

Here is a list http://www.womensordination.org/content/view/234/

[kaetrin]

I've also heard it argued that the female personification of Wisdom in Proverbs is a picture of Christ (Paul refers to Christ as the Wisdom of God).

[Guest Anonymous]

God, or aspects of God are described in the feminine several times in The Bible.

Here is a list http://www.womensordination.org/content/view/234/

Thank you for the link, notsocommon. It's interesting to see those verses gathered together, doubly so because I can only recall one of them being preached on in a sermon or taught in a Sunday School class. The one that I do remember being addressed in church is, of course, the least telling of all of them and doesn't really position God as feminine in my opinion.

Jesus: “Or what woman having ten silver coins, if she loses one of them, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? When she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.†- Luke 15:8-10

This one on the other hand, is pretty clear.

“Thus says…the God of Israel: You and your wives have accomplished in deeds what you declared in words, ‘We are determined to …make offerings to the queen of heaven and to pour out libations to her.’ By all means, keep your vows and make your libations!†- Jeremiah 44:25

**Edited because there was a riffle in my quote.

[jockosmom]

I was raised in a Lutheran church, conservative, but not fundy. And so I grew up with the sense that God was masculine, an old man with a long flowing white beard, etc. As I've aged, I have actively tried to see and imagine God as woman, an earth-mother type, and I have trouble being able to do this. I always come back to the masculine image of God. Why do you think this is? I don't have a problem with other people feeling that God is female but I don't seem to be able to keep that same image in my head. Anytime I pray (which isn't often) I find myself praying to a male God . . . .

[finleeport]

I've always seen God as genderless, he's not human therefore does not need a gender. But when I was in my late teens, I always loved the Virgin Mary as the 'Queen of Heaven' she sounded very similar to a Goddess. I always liked what King Arthur said in The Mists of Avalon by Marion Bradley Zimmer, 'Our Father in Heaven and our Mother in Earth'

[emeraldskull]

LOL this is so stupid... God has no gender, He possesses qualities of both genders. Many times in the Old Testament God tells the Israelites that He nursed them, nurtured them, loved them and cared for them. Just because the pronoun "he" is used more often really has no bearing on God himself, since that is just how our language (and most languages I believe) works.

As finleeport said above, God is not human and is therefore genderless. "He" is not a man or a woman, does not possess more masculine or feminine qualities. :-P It's just another way for the "godly leaders" to beat how great their penises are over the women. :-P

[kaetrin]

I do think that the language of the VF quote is constructed to avoid accusations about gender essentialism in God: it says that God REVEALS himself (in Scripture) as masculine, not that he IS masculine. However as Athena C pointed out, they can't maintain the distinction once they start talking about God's image in the human genders. In the VF world, God IS male for all real intents and purposes.

I can't find the reference at the moment but I think in Gregory of Nazianzus' Theological Orations (one of the great 4th century Orthodox theologians) he makes fun of his theological opponents by saying something to the effect of, "They're so dumb they probably think God is male because Scripture uses the masculine pronoun." His larger point is that the language of Scripture is an accommodation to the limited minds, imaginations, and language of humans, and that it does not (cannot) define God's essential being. (This is the Eunomian controversy, if anyone cares; it's actually tremendously interesting in terms of linguistic theory; the Orthodox Cappadocian theologians are working toward a theory of language as arbitrary signs which can never have complete one-to-one correlation with reality that foreshadows the deconstructionist position in some ways. It makes their statements on Scripture very interesting as well. Basil of Caesarea (another 4th century Cappadocian) also said that if science contradicts our interpretation of Scripture, then our interpretation needs to change. Fundie-style Biblical literalism is really a shockingly new development in terms of Christian history and tradition. But back on topic...)

In the Third Theological Oration, Gregory argues that the terms "Father" and "Son" are also not the ultimately definitive statements regarding God's essence, because they would imply a difference of essence between the two persons. Rather they are descriptive statements of the intimate relationship between the two in terms that humans would understand.

Fourth century Trinitarian theology is a gloriously complicated mess, but I think they do a pretty good job of knocking down (at least theologically, not so much in practice, alas) the spiritual superiority of the masculine. It's further evidence to me that what VF et. al. claims as "traditional" and "orthodox" Christianity is anything but.

[emmiedahl]

From de eebil webz:

In the Hebrew Bible (and in translations to languages with a she/he dichotomy) God is referred to as "he". God might be a 'He' in the Bible but non-Hebrew-literate individuals do not always know that in Hebrew language, grammatical gender is NOT an indicator of actual gender. Hebrew nouns have grammatical gender. Each object is masculine or feminine. There are no gender-neutral pronouns in Hebrew, i.e. there is no equivalent of the English "it". Everything is a "he" or a "she".

The spirit of God Ruach Elohim (Genesis 1:2) is a feminine noun. So is the Shekhinah - the Presence of God. Does this mean the Spirit of God and the Presence of God are female?

My Hebrew is not great, but that is what I have been taught as well. Does VF get that the Bible was not originally written in English? Sometimes I think they believe the KJV is the original.

[emeraldskull]

My Hebrew is not great, but that is what I have been taught as well. Does VF get that the Bible was not originally written in English? Sometimes I think they believe the KJV is the original.

They do believe it is more valid than the original greek/hebrew writings.

[Guest Anonymous]

They do believe it is more valid than the original greek/hebrew writings.

I really wanted to respond to this but now that I've quoted it I find that I'm pretty much speechless. So I'm just gonna go with - WTF? How do they figure? It's somehow more than the sum of its parts because it's in English?

[mystweaver]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Only_movement

From having heard most of their arguments, I'll echo the WTF. I grew up with them, went to (non-fundie) Bible college, and still can't figure out what was in the 1611 pipeweed.

[emeraldskull]

I really wanted to respond to this but now that I've quoted it I find that I'm pretty much speechless. So I'm just gonna go with - WTF? How do they figure? It's somehow more than the sum of its parts because it's in English?

I really, honestly don't understand that line of thinking either. I've heard things like now that we HAVE it translated, we have no need anymore for the original writings. Somehow the KJV was MORE divinely inspired than what was originally penned? :shock:

[higgledypiggledy]

I think Vision Forum would be terrified to find gods and goddesses or worse yet a genderless god because then their whole universe would come shattering down. As they describe god, it sounds like a hermaphrodite that chooses its maleness over its femaleness.

[duplessis3]

I just read an essay about antiphons etc in Russian and Hebrew. If the KJV people were to seriously think about the Hebrew, a whole bunch of what they believe flies out the window. (God seems to exist in a nontemporal sense, for example)

BTW the pronoun "he" has been shown to make most people think of a Male. So the language reinforces the patriarchy of the religion. I've always prefered to just call God God without using pronouns.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I do think that the language of the VF quote is constructed to avoid accusations about gender essentialism in God: it says that God REVEALS himself (in Scripture) as masculine, not that he IS masculine. However as Athena C pointed out, they can't maintain the distinction once they start talking about God's image in the human genders. In the VF world, God IS male for all real intents and purposes.

I can't find the reference at the moment but I think in Gregory of Nazianzus' Theological Orations (one of the great 4th century Orthodox theologians) he makes fun of his theological opponents by saying something to the effect of, "They're so dumb they probably think God is male because Scripture uses the masculine pronoun." His larger point is that the language of Scripture is an accommodation to the limited minds, imaginations, and language of humans, and that it does not (cannot) define God's essential being. (This is the Eunomian controversy, if anyone cares; it's actually tremendously interesting in terms of linguistic theory; the Orthodox Cappadocian theologians are working toward a theory of language as arbitrary signs which can never have complete one-to-one correlation with reality that foreshadows the deconstructionist position in some ways. It makes their statements on Scripture very interesting as well. Basil of Caesarea (another 4th century Cappadocian) also said that if science contradicts our interpretation of Scripture, then our interpretation needs to change. Fundie-style Biblical literalism is really a shockingly new development in terms of Christian history and tradition. But back on topic...)

In the Third Theological Oration, Gregory argues that the terms "Father" and "Son" are also not the ultimately definitive statements regarding God's essence, because they would imply a difference of essence between the two persons. Rather they are descriptive statements of the intimate relationship between the two in terms that humans would understand.

Fourth century Trinitarian theology is a gloriously complicated mess, but I think they do a pretty good job of knocking down (at least theologically, not so much in practice, alas) the spiritual superiority of the masculine. It's further evidence to me that what VF et. al. claims as "traditional" and "orthodox" Christianity is anything but.

Kaetrin, I am sending you a virtual hug for posting this. I'm very much into gender in Orthodoxy (mostly in the context of Russian religious philosophy) and I had never read about this. Very good info - any recommendations for where I can read more about this?

[Brainsample]

And because Doug is a man and God is a man, God made sure that they found Doug's lost boat:

newsy.com/videos/captain-morgan-s-ship-found

[Deleted12]

And because Doug is a man and God is a man, God made sure that they found Doug's lost boat:

newsy.com/videos/captain-morgan-s-ship-found

Bless you for this! :rofl:

[kaetrin]

OnceModestTwiceShy, the primary sources are Gregory of Nyssa's Contra Eunomium, Basil of Caesarea's Contra Eunomium, and Gregory of Nazianzus' Theological Orations. Gender is a secondary issue in the discussion, which is primarily about the nature of God and the nature of language (particularly theological language).

http://www.amazon.com/Gregory-Nyssa-Eun ... 900415518X This volume has a recent translation of Gregory of Nyssa's treatise and a bunch of interesting conference papers on the controversy. It's quite good but next to impossible to get ($223.. but free shipping!!) unless you have access to a good academic interlibrary loan system. I'm sure there's other bibliography but it's been a few years since I worked on this and don't have it to hand right now. I can look for it tomorrow, though, if you want.

[mirele]

And because Doug is a man and God is a man, God made sure that they found Doug's lost boat:

newsy.com/videos/captain-morgan-s-ship-found

Heh, heh, heh, not that Doug would ever let a little Captain Morgan slip by his lips...

But seriously, while I can appreciate the insights of Cappadocian theology (and I do), I also realize that they had almost zero impact on the real world. To quote the late feminist thealogian Mary Daly:

If God is male, then male is God. The divine patriarch castrates women as long as he is allowed to live on in the human imagination.

Yes, that's harsh, but it's worth considering that when your religion actually makes a human male, and then goes on to describe this human male as "God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one being with the Father," well, then it's rather easy to see why Mary Daly came to the conclusion she did.

And that is the problem with Christianity. It makes a human male person god, and then makes being male normative and being female the "other." So, for example, in the Roman Catholic Church, you have to be male first and foremost in order to stand in the stead of Jesus as the priest at mass. To put it more succinctly: as a woman, I can't image Christ, but Father Jones down at the parish can, because he is male. I think you can see where the thinking can degenerate from there.

And, like so much of Jesus' teachings about what we should be doing for the least of these and how we should treat our enemies, Paul's statement in Galatians that there is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus has been given very short shrift in the official churches across the spectrum.

While God can be described above all of our human categories, the flat reality is that Christianity has been used as a cudgel (or as a fist in a velvet glove) to keep down half the human race. I don't go to church because I would prefer not to be reminded on a weekly basis that there are a lot of people out there who absorb consciously or subconsciously the dogma that women are different.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

OnceModestTwiceShy, the primary sources are Gregory of Nyssa's Contra Eunomium, Basil of Caesarea's Contra Eunomium, and Gregory of Nazianzus' Theological Orations. Gender is a secondary issue in the discussion, which is primarily about the nature of God and the nature of language (particularly theological language).

http://www.amazon.com/Gregory-Nyssa-Eun ... 900415518X This volume has a recent translation of Gregory of Nyssa's treatise and a bunch of interesting conference papers on the controversy. It's quite good but next to impossible to get ($223.. but free shipping!!) unless you have access to a good academic interlibrary loan system. I'm sure there's other bibliography but it's been a few years since I worked on this and don't have it to hand right now. I can look for it tomorrow, though, if you want.

Thank you!