Look Her In The Eye - maddening rape/abortion article

[Lady Elaine]

clashdaily.com/2013/07/the-abortion-rape-exception-look-her-in-the-eye/

This was linked on the homeschool on the croft facebook today. It's the usual Christian line on rape and abortion, but with a twist. He manages to turn it into a lecture toward a teenage boy about not having sex. He says that the only reason men support abortion is because they want a way out if they're sexually promiscuous lifestyle results in pregnancy.

Every time I am in a discussion of abortion that turns to the so called rape exception, there are two common denominators. First, it is always a guy. Second, he’s always sexually active. If he is sleeping with a lot of women he really supports unrestricted abortion. So he just feigns concern for the rape victim in order to preserve unrestricted abortion so he can have unrestricted sex. Then there are guys like you who are just sleeping with a girlfriend and want to preserve a tiny crack in the wall — a safety valve just in case you get into trouble. The idea of an absolute ban on abortion makes you nervous because you are taking risks you know you ought not to be taking.

The title of this guy's book is "Letters to a Young Progressive: How To Avoid Wasting Your Life Protesting Things You Don’t Understand." And start wasting it by believing in a religion you don't understand should be the subtitle. :roll:

[2xx1xy1JD]

Me: You know, if a woman becomes pregnant through consensual sex and has a crisis pregnancy it is a toss up as to whether she will have the abortion. But if she’s raped and becomes pregnant then the chances she’ll abort are much lower.

Teen: How much lower?

Me: The odds are about three to one that she won’t abort. It may seem counterintuitive but it really isn’t difficult to understand upon further consideration. She’s just been the victim of a violent crime. She identifies with the evil of violence and is reluctant to inflict it on another human being. So she usually decides to suffer evil rather than inflict it.

Somehow, I doubt that stat is true, or if it is I doubt that's the reason behind it.

You believe that the woman impregnated by a rapist will suffer great stress bringing the baby to term. You obviously believe that the abortion will reduce that stress. But your argument turns on the assertion that the stress saved by the abortion will actually outweigh any guilt she might experience over the memory of the abortion for the duration of her life. Is that a fair characterization of your reasoning?

Actually, I believe that the woman herself is the best judge of what will or will not cause her to suffer.

Me: Well, you haven’t convinced me that the pregnant woman really benefits. The abortion doesn’t solve the problem. She suffers terribly regardless. But when those conceived in rape are aborted there are multiple tragedies. One human is deprived of life, one adoptive couple loses a child, and others are deprived of ever knowing the innocent child who would have had a long life and formed many friendships. I think that the weight of the evidence is against the abortion. I just cannot see who really benefits from the abortion.

1. We don't have to convince YOU on anything. It's not your body or your decision to make.

2. A woman who wants an abortion would find that the problem of an unwanted pregnancy, with all the physical and practical implications, is resolved, and may also find that feelings of hostility toward the pregnancy or an additional physical reminder of the rape are gone.

3. An adoptive couple is not "deprived" because they were never entitled to that child.

4. We don't know what the life of the child would have been like. It is possible that the child would have suffered abuse from a traumatized mother (I knew a woman who had abused her child conceived from a rape, including an attempt to strangle her, as a result of her trauma). It's possible that the child would have had a less healthy start in life because the mother may not have been motivated to eat properly or stop smoking, or because the mother was under additional stress and felt an increased need to drink/take drugs, or because the mother may have been traumatized and depressed. It's even possible that the child would have inherited undesirable personality traits from the rapist. BTW - all of those "deprivations" would have also occurred if the rape had never happened.

Every time I am in a discussion of abortion that turns to the so called rape exception, there are two common denominators. First, it is always a guy.

Plenty of women on this board are having this discussion. Maybe women just aren't talking to HIM. Hmmm.....wonder why?

Tell her you are not yet ready to be a parent. Tell her that if she became pregnant it would be your child, too. Make sure you look her in the eye and firmly tell her that you could never allow her to abort your child.

So, we've gone from dismissing concerns about rape to advising a man to tell his girlfriend what he would ALLOW her to do? Tell me again how this is about babies and not controlling women?

Please note: He is not told to say, "I would be devastated if you ever aborted my child", or even "I would not want you to abort my child", and he's certainly not saying, "I want to make sure that if I ever got you pregnant, I would be fully able to be there for you and be a proper father to our child". It's all about him saying what he would allow her to do.

BTW, the photo on the logo with the man holding a gun just says "we love life and babies", doesn't it?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Easy way to reduce abortions related to rape:

Have men stop raping women.

[Miggy]

I always wonder about the children in these situations. You are adopted out, grow up in a loving family, all good but many adoptees go looking for their biological families at some point. How do you feel when you find out you were conceived by rape? Personally, I don't think I'd take that too well. (It would be worse in the USA with open adoptions as you would be aware of the facts your whole life.)

[Mama Mia]

Somehow, I doubt that stat is true, or if it is I doubt that's the reason behind it.

[

That statistic makes no sense. If half of pregnancies are unplanned , that would mean a minimum of 25% of all pregnancies ended in abortion ( given that a "toss up"= 50% ) .

[SpeakNow]

Easy way to reduce abortions related to rape:

Have men stop raping women.

QFT

[Full enough quiver]

You know why I didn't abort? Because I didn't want to. Nothing anyone said or did would have convinced me to. And if I had made a different decision, nothing anyone said or did would have changed my mind. Because its my body, my choice. It really doesn't matter why a woman makes the choices she makes, and no one else has to understand it, or like it. They just have to get out of the way, and let her do what she thinks is right for her.

[Vex]

I was given up for adoption by a teenage mother, so obviously if she chose abortion I wouldn't be here.

I am completely pro-abortion, because it isn't about me. The author of the article thinks it's about him. I don't see any benefits. Convince me. It's not. It's only about her. Her body, her choice, her life.

[tenth muse]

Why is it any of his business. Surely the person most qualified to discuss the pros and cons of aborting a rape pregnancy is the woman who is affected..

:angry-banghead:

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

clashdaily.com/2013/07/the-abortion-rape-exception-look-her-in-the-eye/

This was linked on the homeschool on the croft facebook today. It's the usual Christian line on rape and abortion, but with a twist. He manages to turn it into a lecture toward a teenage boy about not having sex. He says that the only reason men support abortion is because they want a way out if they're sexually promiscuous lifestyle results in pregnancy.

The title of this guy's book is "Letters to a Young Progressive: How To Avoid Wasting Your Life Protesting Things You Don’t Understand." And start wasting it by believing in a religion you don't understand should be the subtitle. :roll:

Because the way to a young progressive's heart is to be a paternalistically condescending conservative concern-troll right from the title.

[rward]

And here is yet another inconsistency of the "pro life" movement.

A rape victim having an abortion is depriving an adoptive family of a child. Well, by that logic, every egg I waste by not getting pregnant does the exact same thing. So does continuing a pregnancy and keeping a child I conceive.

If this idiot were consistent, he would insist that women get pregnant and put their babies up for adoption so as to fulfill the needs of adoptive parents, maybe requiring one give up baby for every 2 kept babies.

He's not requiring this and until he does, he can stop using this asinine argument.

[lizziesmom]

Rape is ultimately about control. Most of these fundies believe the man should control all aspects of the woman's life. When you understand this, it's pretty easy to see how they wiggle around on the arguments they come up with whenever they talk about pregnancies and rape. By and large, they are a waste of oxygen IMO.

[Phoebe]

Or maybe the rape victim chooses to abort because she lives in a state in which her rapist can sue for joint custody -- thereby forcing the victim into constant unwanted -- and court-ordered -- contact with the man who raped her. :angry-banghead:

[roddma]

Easy way to reduce abortions related to rape:

Have men stop raping women.

My sentiments exactly. What would they think if it was the other way around? The victims aren't always female. In a recent case 36 New Zealand woman got pregnant by an 11 yr old. You should have seen some of the comments tlakign about teaching women not to rape in one article and that she may get a lighter sentence.. It does happen quite a bit.

[crassy]

I really dislike the rape exclusion. I don't think abortion should be legal only in cases of rape or incest, it should be legal and available for ANY reason a woman may have regardless of if I agree with it or not. Autonomy, in my opinion, is the strongest argument for safe and legal abortion.

[GolightlyGrrl]

I really dislike the rape exclusion. I don't think abortion should be legal only in cases of rape or incest, it should be legal and available for ANY reason a woman may have regardless of if I agree with it or not. Autonomy, in my opinion, is the strongest argument for safe and legal abortion.

QFT!!!!

Regarding the book mentioned in this thread "Paternalistic, Condescending Blather from a Douchebag Who is Still Pissed Because Some Hot Liberal Chick Rejected Him in College."

[Full enough quiver]

I don't think it's a bad thing for a guy to want to let a girl know where he stands regarding unplanned pregnancy before they have sex. In fact, this is what I advised my youngest brother to do when he was a teen. It's what I would advise a son to do. As the guy, you don't get a say in what a woman does with her body, so it's a good idea to make sure you're on the same page. If you're against abortion, it's ok to let her know that. If you aren't interested in fatherhood, she should know that too, but you don't get to ALLOW her to do anything.

[Peas n carrots]

And here is yet another inconsistency of the "pro life" movement.

A rape victim having an abortion is depriving an adoptive family of a child. Well, by that logic, every egg I waste by not getting pregnant does the exact same thing. So does continuing a pregnancy and keeping a child I conceive.

If this idiot were consistent, he would insist that women get pregnant and put their babies up for adoption so as to fulfill the needs of adoptive parents, maybe requiring one give up baby for every 2 kept babies.

He's not requiring this and until he does, he can stop using this asinine argument.

The logic of the entire article burns me up, but the depriving an adoptive family of a child really frosts my cake. State enforced martyrdom of women is what that should be called.

[Frumpalicious]

If I became pregnant at any point in the future, it would certainly be against my will, as I am not interested in having children. If I somehow become pregnant, I will be on the phone, scheduling an abortion before the stick is dry. If abortions have been all but banned by then, then I'll terminate it myself, using whatever means possible. If abortions haven't been banned, I will fucking skip out of the clinic once it's out and have an Abortion Party to celebrate.

Fuck you, asshole, I'm not going through an unwanted pregnancy, labor, and post-labor recovery just so someone else can feel self-righteous about adopting this heathen's unwanted baby.

/rant

Sorry for the language, but this is something I feel very strongly about.

[desertvixen]

I don't think it's a bad thing for a guy to want to let a girl know where he stands regarding unplanned pregnancy before they have sex. In fact, this is what I advised my youngest brother to do when he was a teen. It's what I would advise a son to do. As the guy, you don't get a say in what a woman does with her body, so it's a good idea to make sure you're on the same page. If you're against abortion, it's ok to let her know that. If you aren't interested in fatherhood, she should know that too, but you don't get to ALLOW her to do anything.

QFT on the bolded.

[patsymae]

And here is yet another inconsistency of the "pro life" movement.

A rape victim having an abortion is depriving an adoptive family of a child. Well, by that logic, every egg I waste by not getting pregnant does the exact same thing. So does continuing a pregnancy and keeping a child I conceive.

If this idiot were consistent, he would insist that women get pregnant and put their babies up for adoption so as to fulfill the needs of adoptive parents, maybe requiring one give up baby for every 2 kept babies.

He's not requiring this and until he does, he can stop using this asinine argument.

This. That women who abort are fucking depriving infertile couples of their right to take possession of the children that some other woman should be forced to bear. That infertile couples who want children are somehow entitled to force other women to breed for them. And, for all their "god's gift" crap, that children are some commodity that should be produced in order to satisfy consumer demand--who cares about their trauma?

Plus, apparently it's assumed that any woman who gets pregnant from a rape will automatically surrender her child for stranger adoption. Like, you know, she'd never feel like an actual mother to her own baby. She's just some vessel that god arranged to have violated and traumatized for life in order that she could provide the "gift of life" to some people she doesn't know.

"Of the 500 estimated serial killers in U.S. history, 16 percent were adopted as children, while adoptees represent only 2 or 3 percent of the general population. Adoptees are 15 times more likely to kill one or both of their adoptive parents than biological children.crimemagazine.com/adoption-forensics-connection-between-adoption-and-murder (not vouching for the statistics or at all saying all or most adoptees become serial killers, just making the point--how tragic would it have been had society not had the pleasure of knowing these people?

[JesusFightClub]

Because the way to a young progressive's heart is to be a paternalistically condescending conservative concern-troll right from the title.

Yes. This.

Everyone who protests and who takes things seriously has thought about the issue. They understand it better than a random paternalistic RW wanker writing books does.

They normally have an issue, or a couple of issues, where they cannot stand silent. Those are different for different people. What you do when you cannot stand silent ranges from writing polite letters to your local Member of Parliament to, well, direct action. No-one I have ever met on the left was brainwashed by "liberal professors". Many of them left school when they were 14 (my dad) or 16. Their lived experience made them angry, not high-flown arguments about the Frankfurt School.

I did go to university and I never discussed Marxism with any of my professors or lecturers ever. What happened to me with protests is that I thought about the issue and I decided that something had to be done. I could see that a bad thing happened (the SDL marching through my city, the death of an innocent child at the hands of the police...) and I wanted to show that the people who were hurt weren't forgotten, and to walk and act in solidarity with those people. I hope I will always act in solidarity with the attacked, and never stand silent. It is a big thing and I will screw up sometimes, but I will always try my best. That's what makes people act, not academic lectures about how it's all lovely and squishy to hate horrid Glenn Beck.

[2xx1xy1JD]

To be perfectly fair, JFC, I actually DID go to a university with plenty of professors talking about Marx, and political views often had very little to do with actual experienced hardship. If anything, the students from immigrant families were less likely to get involved, since they were more focused on getting good grades, getting jobs and trying to move up.

I sometimes forget that my school wasn't the norm. I don't remember any drinking or partying, and there was certainly no football, but political debates and rallies were always popular.

[JesusFightClub]

To be perfectly fair, JFC, I actually DID go to a university with plenty of professors talking about Marx, and political views often had very little to do with actual experienced hardship. If anything, the students from immigrant families were less likely to get involved, since they were more focused on getting good grades, getting jobs and trying to move up.

I sometimes forget that my school wasn't the norm. I don't remember any drinking or partying, and there was certainly no football, but political debates and rallies were always popular.

It is a very interesting point that you bring up. I'm not seeing any resemblance to any protest movement that I've ever been on in the "Letters to a Young Progressive". This could be because I really just don't understand US culture :embarrassed:

I read a bit of it on Amazon's "look inside" and I was just as bewildered. The writer made moral issues where Marxists (and I know a shitload of Marxists) don't see them. But ignored moral issues where we would see them. It was very confusing.

Your uni sounds great. Did the professors strongly encourage people to attend these debates and rallies?