Tznius ('modest') Princesses

[Soldier of the One]

From Jewish fundies, for your edification:

twitter.com/chayatamir/status/300632522998558723/photo/1

Among others, girls should speak in a 'soft, polite voice'. :roll:

Edited to add: according to Vizhnitzer Chassidim, wives should walk behind husbands:

failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2013/02/women-must-walk-behind-their-husbands-but-never-along-side-them-vizhnitzer-rebbe-says-456.html

[GeoBQn]

Don't get me started on Jewish women using the "princess" title with no thought to the history of that association. Raaaaaaage . . .

[Itsnotaclowncar]

You would think Jews wouldn't want to call themselves Princesses, particularly the American ones.

[defrauding]

That quiz would have been so much better if it used a photo of Gilda Radner to illustrate a Jewish princess. After all, she's the Jewess in Jewess Jeans.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/61330

[Iokaste]

You would think Jews wouldn't want to call themselves Princesses, particularly the American ones.

Why is that? Excuse my ignorance, but I don't get why "jewish" and "princess" would be an especially bad pair?

[Itsnotaclowncar]

Why is that? Excuse my ignorance, but I don't get why "jewish" and "princess" would be an especially bad pair?

"Jewish-American Princess or JAP is a pejorative stereotype of a subtype of Jewish-American female. The term implies materialistic and selfish tendencies, attributed to a pampered or wealthy background."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish-Ame ... stereotype

[PennySycamore]

That quiz would have been so much better if it used a photo of Gilda Radner to illustrate a Jewish princess. After all, she's the Jewess in Jewess Jeans.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/61330

That was hilarious! I saw that when it was originally on, but I haven't seen it in years.

[Guest Anonymous]

I think there is some effort to reclaim 'Jewish Princess'. At least, there is in Britain (Where the 'American' bit is left out for obvious reasons).

There's this book (the recipes are downright awful):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jewish-Princess ... 879&sr=1-1

[GeoBQn]

My personal opinion is to not reclaim the term. I think for a term to be eligible for reclaiming, there has to be a kernel of truth or positivity to the original term. "Jewish American Princess" is a modern, feminine version of the "money-grubbing Jew" stereotype, and that's so overwhelmingly negative to me that I see nothing positive in it to reclaim.

[Guest Anonymous]

My personal opinion is to not reclaim the term. I think for a term to be eligible for reclaiming, there has to be a kernel of truth or positivity to the original term. "Jewish American Princess" is a modern, feminine version of the "money-grubbing Jew" stereotype, and that's so overwhelmingly negative to me that I see nothing positive in it to reclaim.

I can't say anything about 'Jewish Princess' (not Jewish), but reclaiming often happens when a word seems completely irredeemable. There was never anything positive or truthful about 'Nigger' or 'Dyke'.* I think people take those words "back" just to ruin things for the bigots.

*I'm using my privileges as a black, LGBT woman to use those words.

[Itsnotaclowncar]

Even without the Jewish bit I think calling someone over the age of 7 a princess isn't very nice. I don't thinks there's a way to reclaim a term that's essentially "spoiled brat"

[2xx1xy1JD]

In any case, this is not an attempt to reclaim language.

It's an attempt to translate the term "bas melech" ("daughter of the King"), which is often used in tznius discussions. "Kol kvuda bas melech p'nima" is a popular quote. I'm pretty sure that whoever came up with that sheet was oblivious to the fact that it could play into the JAP stereotype.

Maybe I can donate some extra copies of The Paperbag Princess to counteract this garbage?

What's even more infuriating to me, though, is that odds are pretty good that the little girls who are taught this crap had grandmothers or great-grandmothers or great-great-grandmothers who may have had to wear dirty rags at some point, and it didn't make them any less worthy of respect or dignity. How will these little girls react when they find out that great-grandma had to live in the forest or hide in a dirty sewer for months or years in order to escape the Nazis? Or that their female relatives were stripped naked on arrival to concentration camps?

[Soldier of the One]

In any case, this is not an attempt to reclaim language.

It's an attempt to translate the term "bas melech" ("daughter of the King"), which is often used in tznius discussions. "Kol kvuda bas melech p'nima" is a popular quote. I'm pretty sure that whoever came up with that sheet was oblivious to the fact that it could play into the JAP stereotype.

Maybe I can donate some extra copies of The Paperbag Princess to counteract this garbage?

What's even more infuriating to me, though, is that odds are pretty good that the little girls who are taught this crap had grandmothers or great-grandmothers or great-great-grandmothers who may have had to wear dirty rags at some point, and it didn't make them any less worthy of respect or dignity. How will these little girls react when they find out that great-grandma had to live in the forest or hide in a dirty sewer for months or years in order to escape the Nazis? Or that their female relatives were stripped naked on arrival to concentration camps?

That historical perspective might just feed into a further tendency to isolate themselves from the world in the name of 'kedushah' (holiness).

And you're right: princess in this context comes from 'bat/bas melech', daughter of the King (=God).

[defrauding]

Slightly off-topic, but it annoys me when people refer to "tznius clothing" -- a phrase you see on the second page of the handout -- because it's grammatically incorrect. "Tzniut" means "modesty," not "modest." The word people want is "tzanua."

[Guest Anonymous]

In any case, this is not an attempt to reclaim language.

It's an attempt to translate the term "bas melech" ("daughter of the King"), which is often used in tznius discussions. "Kol kvuda bas melech p'nima" is a popular quote. I'm pretty sure that whoever came up with that sheet was oblivious to the fact that it could play into the JAP stereotype.

Maybe I can donate some extra copies of The Paperbag Princess to counteract this garbage?

What's even more infuriating to me, though, is that odds are pretty good that the little girls who are taught this crap had grandmothers or great-grandmothers or great-great-grandmothers who may have had to wear dirty rags at some point, and it didn't make them any less worthy of respect or dignity. How will these little girls react when they find out that great-grandma had to live in the forest or hide in a dirty sewer for months or years in order to escape the Nazis? Or that their female relatives were stripped naked on arrival to concentration camps?

I do agree that this was not a case of reclaiming language. It seems like straightforward sexist stuff. I was speaking more generally about why someone might not necessarily distance themselves from that term.

[2xx1xy1JD]

SotO - your totally right that history feeds into the isolationism. Most of the Hasidic groups, for example, were made up of Holocaust survivors. Satmar had some roots in Europe before the war, but the current Satmar dynasty and philosophy stemmed from Yoel Tanenbaum, who fled Hungary, and I've read statements from people my age and older that they lived in a world where people simply didn't have grandparents or extended family members. The entire community basically had PTSD, and it evolved into a rather paranoid and insular culture. [To my mind, grandparent who is an actual Holocaust survivor having flashbacks and fears and a desire to sleep with a passport under their pillow = understandable, grandchild born in the United States going around with that constant fear, not as a "must be aware of the past to prevent it from repeating itself" thing but as an actual, daily fear = paranoid culture.]

What I'm seeing now, though, is a new generation coming along that doesn't know the whole history. How will they cope when they learn about it? Will they be so sheltered that they are never taught the details?

I had the chance to hear Leibel Zisman speak and heard his account of the Klausenberger Rebbe tearing off his white kittle (a sort of robe) on Yom Kippur in the DP camp. I wonder if these kids will ever hear that story or be able to appreciate its meaning?

[Soldier of the One]

The more insular the community gets, the less chances of long-term survival the community has.

Oh, and how about the story of the rabbis bringing God before a Beit Din (rabbinical court) in Auschwitz, pronouncing their ruling and then davening (praying) mincha (the afternoon prayer)? Again, such 'subversive' tales will not likely be heard.

The history and evolution of Chassidism is one big IRONY.

[cindyluvs24]

In any case, this is not an attempt to reclaim language.

It's an attempt to translate the term "bas melech" ("daughter of the King"), which is often used in tznius discussions. "Kol kvuda bas melech p'nima" is a popular quote. I'm pretty sure that whoever came up with that sheet was oblivious to the fact that it could play into the JAP stereotype.

Maybe I can donate some extra copies of The Paperbag Princess to counteract this garbage?

What's even more infuriating to me, though, is that odds are pretty good that the little girls who are taught this crap had grandmothers or great-grandmothers or great-great-grandmothers who may have had to wear dirty rags at some point, and it didn't make them any less worthy of respect or dignity. How will these little girls react when they find out that great-grandma had to live in the forest or hide in a dirty sewer for months or years in order to escape the Nazis? Or that their female relatives were stripped naked on arrival to concentration camps?

I've always thought that the need to be a "princess" stemmed from the fact that they were 2 or 3 generations out of steerage and it was a point of pride to show how far they've come.

[MamaJunebug]

What?

It's like the past 40 50 years never happened.... :shock: