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Destiny31's Corner

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What Are You Doing? Chapter 10: A Deliberate Question

I started reading this chapter at noon my time, so the beginning, at least, of this mess will be done sober. Captain Courtship and Nosy Busybody are sitting together. One would assume in the same fucking park, but this shitty shitty writer didn't bother setting his scene. I know I shouldn't expect better because he's proven himself to be such a shit writer, but JFC couldn't SOMEONE have edited this shit to have it make fucking SENSE? Even fan fiction writers who write for FREE know they need beta readers to help them catch shit, and this fucking guy is fucking selling this bullshit for actual real god damned money. ARGH. Yes, I do realize I'm a grammar and formatting nazi, and no, I'm not sorry. 

We open with Captain Courtship saying he was uncomfortable discussing these topics in front of an unmarried Asshole Plot Device. I know I keep fucking harping on this, but seriously, why the shit is a dude who is RESPONSIBLE FOR FUCKING HELPING YOUTH NAVIGATE SEX AND RELATIONSHIPS UNABLE TO TALK ABOUT SEX? This really really bothers me. It's like the blind leading the blind. Anyway, moving on, Captain Courtship is suffering anal pain because he feels like Nosy Busybody wasn't fair to courtship. 

Captain Courtship says that he feels like Nosy Busybody was implying that courtship deliberately exposes kids to lust, which leads to this gem:

Quote

Sakal: I see those as the same temptation, but putting that aside, you use a word, ‘deliberate’ which can mean at least two different things. Firstly, it can mean ‘slowly’; and secondly it can mean ‘intentionally’. You must at least admit that the method is slow. 

What. The. Actual. Fucking. Fuck did I just read? First, stop being a pedantic asshole Nosy Busybody, and second, WHY is it bad to take your time with deciding who you are going to marry? I mean, I think I've made it beyond crystal clear how much I dislike courtship, but I'd rather see people courting than following this model. At least there's fucking consent (usually), and some semblance of making sure that this person is right for you. The idea of being rushed into a marriage because I can't keep my fingers off my goodies is so appalling that I still can't even with this shit. 

Quote

 

Sakal: Well, yes and no... and yes. I doubt there is anyone out there (except Satan) who is saying to themselves, “I like this courtship system because it promotes lust.” But the system itself does promote lust, and in a way that is directly contrary to what Scripture tells us to do. So it is a deliberate system, and it does promote lust.

Indeed, some courtship advocates even hint at this. Douglas Wilson is brave enough to point out that courtship is a sexual relationship. Indeed, he even calls it a ‘volatile sexual relationship’. He then says, that the term courtship, it’s etymology, has it’s origin in practices just as unbiblical as dating. Courtship, as it was originally practiced, was where a variety of vain young men convinced other men’s wives to commit adultery with them.

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What the shit Lana? Courtship promotes lust? I'm getting a mental picture of Kristina and her intended (whose name I forget) with their fucking ruler to make sure that they don't touch. Granted, not all courting couples follow those same rules, but by and large, there's a huge emphasis on "purity". Also, I would really really like to know how exactly lust is promoted, other than the whole but they have boobs and erections so marry them off bullshit that permeates this whole book. 

The second paragraph actually includes a couple of footnotes, because that's one of the bigger piles of WTF I have seen in a while. I tried to follow the path to figure out what the fuck Vaughn Ohlman (who is a creeper!) was on about, but the footnote simply gives the name of a book and a page number, and I'm sorry FJ, I am not getting that book. I love my liver too much. I really really really really fucking want to know how the actual fuck the original practice of courtship was intended to convince married women to commit adultery. If anyone has a copy of Her Hand in Marriage by Douglas Wilson, please contact me because I really want to know what the shit he is on about. They go back and forth for a bit about how courtship is designed to encourage lust and I just can't even. 

Quote

Sakal: That is the hardest of all. The courtship system does, really, look at a young man who admits to lust, or fornication, and they really, seriously, and deliberately tell him ‘too bad, you can’t have a wife’. It is actually down in black and white, in book after book, on website after website... if you don’t have victory over lust or fornication, you cannot get married. 

Wow. So, that happened. How very dare that we expect young men who want to marry to have some basic self control? I can't even imagine how terrifying the wedding night must be for the poor girls that this asshole sells off. Seriously, I'm crying right now. 

Quote

 

Sakal: [Waits patiently for a minute, then says] How can I give my ‘innocent’ daughter to such a man?

Charles: Yes!

Sakal: First of all, I doubt she is all that innocent. She may be naïve, that certainly seems to be the case amongst the young people in your churches... the ones that haven’t fallen to fornication already, that is. But she isn’t sinless any more than he is. Perhaps she is even a worse sinner, it is God who judges the heart, not us. And, again, it doesn’t matter. Scripture is absolutely clear on this... that is the kind of man that needs a wife. The modern church’s view seems to be that we should only give water to someone who has conquered thirst, or preach the gospel to someone who has conquered sin.

 

 

[disclaimer: I am picking up after an hour or so because I was so upset by this that I walked away because I was literally thinking I might puke.]

Oh. My. God. Just when you think it can't get worse, it does. I guess this explains why Josh was married off after his little 'indiscretions' (please note that I'm not minimizing his actions, I'm just giving the fundie it's not that big a deal line.). He fucked up and so he gets a wife so he has a convenient hole to fuck as a solution to his problem. Just fucking wow. Then you include the casual misogyny of oh, she can't be that innocent, and this is just fucking no. The way I read this bit has some gross gross shades of women are whores that makes me so so sad. 

Quote

Sakal: It means that the young man... or woman, but most of us focus on the young man, who finds himself tempted, or even finds himself sinning, in a sexual area, is obligated to not only repent in the usual way... admit his sin, be sorry for it, etc. but he is also obligated to turn to the remedy that God Himself has designed for that sin. His very seeking of a wife is an act of repentance. 

That's so romantic and clearly a solution for life long happiness. "sorry babbbbee, but I couldn't control myself with women, so to prove to god I'm sorry, I had to marry you." I feel like that would lead to me resenting the shit out of my husband if I knew he only married me because it was for sex. How is a husband supposed to love his wife as christ loved the church if he only married her for sex? This makes no god damned sense whatsoever. 

They are going back and forth about why kids need to marry and it's all the usual bullshit: a helpmeet for the husband and babbiiiiezzzzz for the wife, so I'm just gonna skip it cos it's the fundie horseshit we've heard 398394384 times in other places. There's also some shit about Reformed theology that I don't really understand because I'm not Christian anymore, but there's a snide remark about how the reformers need to reform back to the Bible and I hope he didn't think that was clever cos it wasn't. 

Moving on, they go back and forth about how to decide if a young man is "qualified" to be married and Nosy Busybody shames Captain Courtship a bit for being uncomfortable with the idea of going to the parents of a potential spouse for his child. There are a lot of boring walls of text in this chapter, which is now, blessedly, OVER. 

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WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?

Posted

Just when I thought that maybe the FLDS was the cult with the worst treatment of young girls, Vaughn Ohlman (Is A Creeper) came along to show me how wrong I was. It's just so sick and twisted. I've pretty much run out of adjectives for now. :sigh:

Even though I live in the same state as Doug Wilson ( :puke-right: ), I only know about him from FJ and I've never seen any of his books. If anyone has Her Hand in Marriage, I vote someone else recaps it, not you, @Destiny!

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Destiny

Posted

Just now, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

If anyone has Her Hand in Marriage, I vote someone else recaps it, not you, @Destiny!

I do NOT volunteer as tribute to do that one, ftr. 

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WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?

Posted

1 minute ago, Destiny said:

I do NOT volunteer as tribute to do that one, ftr. 

Me either! :chicken: (I'm a big chicken.)

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nickelodeon

Posted

Ugh, that last bit. Ohlman the creeper is really, really extreme in his views, but honestly the same twisted thinking pops up in even the more "vanilla" fundies' lives: see Tabitha Paine currently slated to become a fix-it wife for an actual literal rapist. Grim stuff.

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Destiny

Posted

7 minutes ago, nickelodeon said:

Ugh, that last bit. Ohlman the creeper is really, really extreme in his views, but honestly the same twisted thinking pops up in even the more "vanilla" fundies' lives: see Tabitha Paine currently slated to become a fix-it wife for an actual literal rapist. Grim stuff.

I agree that this permeates fundie culture. No question, they just usually aren't as overt about it. It's fucking gross. 

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formergothardite

Posted

13 hours ago, Destiny said:

just usually aren't as overt about it. It's fucking gross.

Yeah, usually fundies don't come out and say it.  This makes it clear that women are just sex objects and baby incubators. A young wife is the remedy to a sexual predator. :my_sick:

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CTRLZero

Posted

Quote

Courtship, as it was originally practiced, was where a variety of vain young men convinced other men’s wives to commit adultery with them.

Huh?  Do I have to read the book to find out more about this?  Call me skeptical...

I don't know anything about Douglas Wilson other than in his capacity as an enabler of pedophile(s) and lives across the eastern border from me, but in looking at his books, I noticed a couple instances of men/boys in their skimpies in the cover artwork.  Nothing horrible about that, except, you know, Douglas Wilson = pedophile enabler!

If his courtship book comes up for free on my Kindle subscription, I'll volunteer to recap it, but no way am I sending money to this nutjob.  I can't imagine how much wine this endeavor might take, lol!  Kudos to you, Destiny!

 

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Destiny

Posted

19 minutes ago, CTRLZero said:

Huh?  Do I have to read the book to find out more about this?  Call me skeptical...

Apparently. These are the footnotes for that paragraph:

xcviii Her Hand in Marriage, pg 53
xcix Her Hand in Marriage, pg 16

That said, I feel like this is something pulled quite badly out of context. Not sure why, cos Mr. Ohlman (who is a creeper) isn't pulling anything out of context for his support for this mess. At all. Not sure where I would have gotten such a silly idea.

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Bethella

Posted

On 2/22/2017 at 11:02 AM, CTRLZero said:

Huh?  Do I have to read the book to find out more about this?  Call me skeptical...

I don't have a copy of Her Hand In Marriage, but I suspect he's referencing the medieval tradition of courtly love. First developed by the troubadours of Southern France and extensively employed in European literature of the time, it was a highly conventionalized tradition of love between a knight and a married noblewoman. The love of the knight for his lady was regarded as an ennobling passion, but these schmucks don't seem to realize the relationship was typically unconsummated.

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Destiny

Posted

Hmm. I never even thought of the concept of courtly love, since they don't really relate to each other (to my knowledge) other than both containing court, but I think you could be on to something there. 

I contemplated getting a copy of the book from the library and ripping it apart too, but if i do it at all, it won't be for a while. My brain needs a break from purity culture.

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Bethella

Posted

49 minutes ago, Destiny said:

Hmm. I never even thought of the concept of courtly love, since they don't really relate to each other (to my knowledge) other than both containing court, but I think you could be on to something there. 

I contemplated getting a copy of the book from the library and ripping it apart too, but if i do it at all, it won't be for a while. My brain needs a break from purity culture.

It's definitely taken out of context. I can kind of see connecting the two since they're both highly formalized (or ritualized?) practices to control the sexuality within the relationship. But the process, goals and desired outcomes of the two types of relationships are very, very different.

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  • Posts

    • Ozlsn

      Posted

      4 hours ago, thoughtful said:

      Gary's not gonna meet God for somebody else, he's going to meet God for himself. "Ah'm gonna meet God the way ah preached, ah'm gonna meet God  the way ah soul-winned, ah'm gonna meet God the way ah the way ah sang,  ah'm gonna meet God the way ah treated mah family, amen?"

      Boy is he screwed.

      4 hours ago, thoughtful said:

      Most of the time, he reminds us, your enemy will be someone in church

      So.. if you avoid church your enemies won't find you? Also not sure what that says about Bro Gary.

      4 hours ago, thoughtful said:

      Gary doesn't like smiling. When they were in New Mexico, someone there who was a professional PHOtoegrapher ("whatever that word is" Becky: "phoTOGrapher") took their picture. Gary hates having pictures taken (apparently, that's very different from video). He says he didn't smile in any of

      Well that explains the scowl in his daughter's wedding photos.

      4 hours ago, thoughtful said:

      He tells the story of the man who was called to be a preacher because of Gary's Facebook video, and needs Becky and Jacob to help him remember when it all happened.

      I'm seriously starting to wonder if he has a neurodegenerative condition and Becky is hanging in there for the inheritance.

    • Katzchen24

      Posted

      That's a really interesting article. I hadn't really thought about it, but the majority of the fundies we snark on really do only rant on a limited number of themes. Mostly it's abortion, female purity, anti-LGBTQI and  general KJV-ness. 

      "The Bible’s exhortations to compassion for immigrants and the poor stretch long enough to comprise a sizeable book of their own, but no matter. White evangelicals will not let their political ambitions be constrained by something as pliable as scripture."

      Maybe FJ selects to snark on only a particular type of fundie, but I have NEVER heard one obsess about the poor or immigrants even one iota as much as they do about modesty or abortion. 

      As far as I'm concerned, the fundie obsession with female purity is a power and control grab dressed up as godliness. I've never understood why men have so much power over the female reproductive system and how so much prestige has been granted to male inheritance. It makes so much more sense for inheritance to be matrilineal if you want to be really sure of parentage. 

      • I Agree 3
    • SolomonFundy

      Posted

      You may be thinking of the Goodwins. Atlanta and Jordan live on a homestead (adjacent to his family) in middle Tennessee. A few years ago, they acquired a second, larger wood stove to use in their home, and moved the smaller wood stove to an exterior porch for Summertime cooking. This accomplished the tandem goal of allowing heat to remain outdoors in the Summer, and indoors in the Winter as the larger stove is capable of heating the entire house in colder months. The smaller stove is eventually supposed to be moved to an unfinished area of the homestead that is intended as a Summer kitchen. Atlanta and Jordan now have 6 children, and she generally spaces about 18 months apart. So your memory of a baby + pregnancy is entirely possible. (The last two children were twins.)

      I'm not sure what you consider "well connected" to entail, but Atlanta and Jordan have quite a few social ties to fundy families. They also infamously had a Civil War themed wedding, complete with Confederate flags, antebellum dresses, and southern army uniforms for the men. She's remotely descended from Nathaniel Bedford Forrest (Confederate army general), and the wedding was held at his childhood home site. Forrest is credited with founding the KKK. Not exactly the family connection that most people would think to celebrate on their wedding day, but I guess Atlanta and Jordan felt that it was a appropriate for themselves. 😑

      • Love 1
    • marmalade

      Posted

      On 8/3/2020 at 12:16 PM, HereticHick said:

      Where did he say that he knows zero Spanish? And I wonder what language he studied at Syracuse, which I believe has a language requirement.

      He did grad school at Syracuse. Not sure if his undergrad had a foreign language requirement. I think it was a small liberal arts college, so I imagine it did. However, he could have fulfilled it in high school when he went to public school to boost his soccer. 

    • SolomonFundy

      Posted

      3 hours ago, calliopecassandra said:

      I'd say getting pregnant again 5 months after a stillborn is pretty soon. I know after a miscarriage, you're "supposed" to wait 6 months. Oh and they had to wait 6 weeks to have sex again. Are they people who say so many days after a girl birth and less after a boy, do we know?

      Susannah wasn't stillborn. She lived for several days after birth on life support. Melanie and Nathan seem to have a pattern of trying very soon after a loss. Susannah's death was incredibly traumatic for the whole family, and I personally don't think that they were any more irresponsible than any other couple who has 2 babies in 14 months. But then, about a year after Abby was born, they had a miscarriage. 10 months later, Betsy was born. So, over the course of 3.5 years, they had four pregnancies, including three full term births, the loss of Susannah soon after birth, and a miscarriage. 

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