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Destiny31's Corner

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What Are You Doing? Chapter 9: To avoid fornication

Ok, so remember when, like MONTHS ago, I said I was going to try to get this shitshow finished in the next couple of days? I lied. I can't even say that it was a couple of months. Baby Luna is now my beautiful grown up girl, and is not interested in helping mommy write this AT ALL. Anyway, I have a glass of wine, so let's get this shitshow on the road. When last we left our intrepid heroes, it seemed as though Nosy Busybody was trying (and succeeding) to convince Captain Courtship (the youth pastor, if you've forgotten. No judgement, I did too.) that selling their kids on Fundie eBay was the best way.

I am guessing we are back in the park, but Mr. Ohlman (who is a creeper) doesn't bother to set the stage properly. Anyway, we are going to talk about fornication today. Yay. 

Quote

Charles: Oh, Mr. Davidson! Yes. Please, have a seat. Thank you for coming.
If you don’t mind, I’d like to really focus, today, on something that you implied yesterday. Much of your argument for young marriages seemed to focus on the issue of, well, fornication. Mental fornication, I assume you mean?

Sakal: Mental or physical. 

Charles: Wow! So you mean...? Well, let’s not go there, not today.

Oh. Dear. So, let's just marry off children instead of teaching them, I don't know, FUCKING SELF CONTROL. Bloody fantastic. That doesn't even touch on the WTF with "mental fornication". I really hate fucking purity culture. So fucking much. These ideas are horrific and damaging. They go back and forth about the marry or burn shit in I Corinthians 7 and fuck I hate @WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? right now for reminding me that I really needed to finish this project. 

Quote

Sakal: ...and none of the old commentaries. In a minute I will tell you what Calvin said on this issue... and John Gill, and Matthew Henry. But let us look at the logic flaw first.
Verse two speaks of ‘avoiding fornication’, verse nine speaks of a lack of ‘self-control’ or, as the KJV puts it, an inability to ‘contain’. Certainly the married man, and the betrothed man, may have issues with both of these problems, issues which may be helped by coming together on a regular basis with his wife.
But is it only, or even principally, the married and betrothed men who have problems with fornication and lust? Does it make sense, really, to say ‘in order for the married man to have relief from the temptation of fornication he should sleep with his wife, but the unmarried man can be perfectly content without one? Do you know many, or any, young men who are not troubled by lust? Do you know of anywhere else in
Scripture where, except for the gift that Christ and Paul talk about, a young man is able to get relief from this?

Charles: But no one believes that this means that the unmarried man must marry!

Sakal: Until recently, practically everyone believed it. Calvin is particularly forceful on the subject. He says: ... The incontinent, therefore, neglecting to cure their infirmity by this means, sin by the very circumstance of disobeying the Apostle’s command. ...

Oh god. Send help and more wine. There's so fucking much wrong with that bit. First, there's the bullshit of only penis holders want sex. Second, there's more of the bullshit that fucking self control is impossible. I have seen many a pretty man in my day, and have managed to accost ZERO of them, because I'm not an asshole and I can control myself in the presence of the opposite sex. FUCKING HELL! Third, relief is possible. It's called fucking rub one out. Works for both genders. (The teaching against masturbation is probably a different discussion for a different day, but it's one of many things that bothers me about fundamentalism.) Lastly, I really really want to make a poop joke even though I know what he MEANS by incontinent, but I'm, at my core, a 12 year old boy who loves a poop joke. 

Quote

Charles: That these earlier commentators, they really believed that marriage was, that... [Sakal waits patiently]
This is so hard to say. Nowadays we see the spiritual problem of fornication, lust and adultery, and we seek a spiritual solution... more Bible study, more prayer, an increase in faith, repentance, etc. But these old commentators seem to be insisting that I Corinthians 7:2-5 says that a man should seek a solution to their spiritual problem with a physical solution. That we should seek relief...

Oh, Hi Andrew! [Blushing furiously]

WHAT THE SERIOUS FUCKING FUCK DID I JUST READ?????? DID HE JUST FUCKING REDUCE WOMEN TO A FUCKING HOLE TO SLAKE LUST? FUCKING FUCKING FUCK! Also, Captain Courtship, if you can't say sex, you probably shouldn't be instructing impressionable youth on the topic. Seriously, it bugs me that everyone speaks in innuendo in this whole book. Just fucking say sex. If you can't say sex, you are NOT READY to have it. 

Great. Asshole Plot Device just showed up. Just what I needed. Can someone refill my glass of wine please? They have a boring back and forth on whether the word engagement or betrothal should be used, and they decide on betrothal because betrothal is unbreakable or some shit. I can't even with the idea of not being able to back out if you realise that this person isn't for you. 

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Sakal: Well, good. So getting back to our previous subject, Proverbs five speaks of the exact same thing. It says that a young man who is enjoying his own wife is, or should be, ‘distracted’ from other women.xcv And the church is afraid of that idea. They want our young men to be pure, to have conquered lust, before they even think about marriage. 

Y'all, I just sighed so hard that Luna just meowed an "are you ok mommy?" at me. It's sad to see this idea in print. I know, this book is a low bar, but the idea of the wife being responsible to put out so her husband doesn't sin makes me ragey. No one is responsible for their significant other's infidelity - that's down to the person who cheated.

It's sad how little agency women get in this system. I mean, it's not like courtship gives women a lot of agency, but this is even worse. Women are told that they will marry this person because dad said so, and their job is to be a convenient hole for their husband. They get no choices and their needs are completely secondary. Add on the fact that in Mr. Vaughn Ohlman (who is a creeper)'s view, a girl is ready for marriage when she has breasts, and you have a recipe for children to be sold in a marriage they have no choice in.

Quote

Andrew: [Sakal looks at Andrew, who grins] No, pastor, he isn’t saying that at all. He is saying you should be working on combating lust... by helping us get married when we need it, and not years later. 

Honest question: how young are we actually talking about here? I mean, my first quasi-sexual feelings were probably about 13. I'd hazard a guess that my penis having friends probably were around the same age. If the whole point of marriage in his view is to allow for fucking, just how fucking young are we talking about here? I'm envisioning 12 - 14. That's horrifying on so many levels. Fuck. 

Quote

Sakal: I believe that each of us should have our role in obeying the command of I Corinthians 7:2. For example:

Young children: These should be, under their parents guidance, getting ready to be married themselves, keeping themselves pure and focused on brother/sister relationships, encouraging and rejoicing with their older siblings as they marry and have children.

Older children: Should hold themselves in readiness; eagerly anticipating marriage while insisting on holding each brother and sister in the church as exactly that in all purity; waiting with eager obedience for the day when their father will present them with a spouse.

Childless (or pregnant) Couples: Praying for and otherwise uplifting and encouraging and assisting the others in the church as they are able in this area.

Older Couples: They should do the same things as the childless couples, and the older women should be teaching the young women as we learn about in Titus 2.

The Elders: Teaching the Word of God on this issue; particularly in light of the current false teachings of courtship and dating; rebuking and admonishing their congregations when necessary; helping their church to be salt and light on this issue wherever possible; specifically facilitating marriages, young marriages, fruitful young marriages. Counseling and encouraging the resulting marriages.

Fathers of Sons: Teaching their sons to be prepared for the wife they will bring them; determining their need for marriage; actively seeking a wife for their sons; taking wives for their sons from daughters who have need, where necessary.

Fathers of Daughters: Teaching their daughters to be ready for the husband they will bring them; determining their need for marriage; giving their daughters in marriage: either to a son who has need or, if their daughter herself has a need, even to a son who has not need.

(formatting was cleaned up by me. One of many problems this book has is incompetent authoring leading to terrible formatting.)

(insert a John Oliver HOLY SHIT here. He's my TV husband. I'm required to link to him.) 

Spoiler

 

Ok. So in Mr. Vaugh Ohlman's view, the whole point of life is to get married. I just can't even with the "father will present them with a spouse" bit. I just can't even imagine my dad showing up one day and saying, "Hi destiny, I see you have a nice set of B's now, so here's the man you are going to marry. Introduce yourself and you will be married in x amount of time." It's beyond horrifying. I know I keep saying that, but my heart breaks for the children that this is actively hurting / has already hurt. 

He's so snide and arrogant too. Everyone else is wrong and false teachings. It's IMPOSSIBLE for him to be wrong about any of this because, well, I don't know. Maybe cos fuck you that's why? I'm troubled by the elders should be helping facilitate marriages too....it's shades of the Joy Books (I think they were called) that the FLDS once used to auction off young girls in their particular culty clusterfuck. 

Also, I notice that there is no job for the mother in this. I guess she's just there to be a convenient hole for the patriarch. So fucking gross. 

Anyway, after this wall of text, Captain Courtship wandered off into a chapter break. Thank god. I'll try to get another one of these out this week. 

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WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?

Posted

I'm sorry for my role in this, @Destiny. The more the book goes on, the worse it gets. Or it gets clearer and clearer just how fucking awful these ideas are.

Ugh. I can't stomach the thought of these "ideals" being applied in real life. Please God, I hope the 2 patriarchs will always get into a fight and never "close the deal" on their underage children. Please.

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Destiny

Posted

Alas, there are reviews of the book that indicate that they followed these teachings. I know I keep using this word, but it's horrifying....I meant to ask Mister Destiny when he first had sexy feelings to get a feel for when that happened in boys but he was busy. As far as I can tell, this means literal kids would be getting married according to Mr. Ohlman's views.

By the way, I was totally joking about hating you @WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?. I hadn't thought about the fact that I need to finish this for a while, and I don't like leaving stuff undone. 

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WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?

Posted

It's an interesting question. "How old were you when you first had sexy feelings?" I'd guess somewhere around 12 or 13 for me. And that's the age I should have been sold off gotten married?!

Ick. :puke-front:

I know masturbation (my phone really didn't like that word and kept trying to correct it) isn't something most people like to talk about, but we really need to get over feeling ashamed or embarrassed about it. Teenaged sexy feelings but not enough maturity for sex? You can help yourself feel good and not risk STIs, pregnancy,  or emotional trauma! Just take care of your urges yourself! 

Okay, having said that, I'm going to have to try to make sure my kids understand that self pleasure is normal as they grow up. I hate it when I get up on a soapbox and then have to live out my principles...

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Destiny

Posted

Apparently, cos it's better for you to marry than burn. That said, it's unclear to me if women are expected to have sexual feelings in his view. It honestly comes across to me as women are there to fuck, but it's unclear in the text (at least so far) if they are expected to enjoy it.

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WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?

Posted

Ignoring female libidos seems stupid to me, but a lot of these patriarchal groups do it. A few take it the other way. "Women are all shameless sluts and will whore themselves around if the man in charge of them does not lock them up!" Either way, it seems stupid to me. I'm so glad my dh sees me as more than just a convenient hole. :bigheart: (That's a pretty low standard. He also passes some higher standards, too. :) )

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formergothardite

Posted

Young children should be getting ready for marriage?! WTF! Why not just let them be children? It is like from the second they are born their whole lives should revolve around marriage. 

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Destiny

Posted

1 hour ago, formergothardite said:

Young children should be getting ready for marriage?! WTF! Why not just let them be children? It is like from the second they are born their whole lives should revolve around marriage. 

That's the way I read it to. Yuck. 

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crawfishgirl

Posted

Thanks, you did a great job reviewing this book - I am not able to read that crap myself.

Oldman would be horrified to learn that I didn't get married until my 30's and that my father had no influence on my relationship.

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CTRLZero

Posted

Vaughn Ohlman is a super creeper.  And I do wonder about his wife.  Where is she?  What does she make of all this?

Anyway, I am assuming this is an exact quote, and "need" means "wants to have sex and all equipment has been checked out by daddy and it's a go"?  (That feels so icky.)
 

Quote

 

Fathers of Sons: Teaching their sons to be prepared for the wife they will bring them; determining their need for marriage; actively seeking a wife for their sons; taking wives for their sons from daughters who have need, where necessary.

Fathers of Daughters: Teaching their daughters to be ready for the husband they will bring them; determining their need for marriage; giving their daughters in marriage: either to a son who has need or, if their daughter herself has a need, *even to a son who has not need. * <------what  the heck does the *italicized* mean?

 

I wonder what ol' Vaughn is up to lately?  Did he ever get around to another meat meet market?

And thank you, Destiny!  Very thorough review.  Hope there's no hangover.  Cuddles to Luna, etc. 

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Destiny

Posted

12 minutes ago, CTRLZero said:

I wonder what ol' Vaughn is up to lately?  Did he ever get around to another meat meet market?

All of the blogs and sites and so on that he had are still either private or offline, so no idea. That said, remember Necessarily Anonymous? He's blogging again....There were like 3 new posts that I hadn't read, and they are super gross. 

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  • Posts

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      Posted

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    • Katzchen24

      Posted

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      • Upvote 1
      • I Agree 3
    • SolomonFundy

      Posted

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      • Love 1
    • marmalade

      Posted

      On 8/3/2020 at 12:16 PM, HereticHick said:

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    • SolomonFundy

      Posted

      3 hours ago, calliopecassandra said:

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