I agree that Katniss never showed any real romantic attraction to Gale, which is why I'll never understand the claims of 'love triangle'. Katniss was very close to Gale and had no romantic experience and questioned whether her feelings might be romantic, but that's as far as it went.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Gale is vicious and terrible human being. He's an extremist who is willing to be cold and ruthless when he believes it's for the greater good. He'll kill as many Capitol citizens/loyalists as needed to free the districts and end tyranny, which is in and of itself a noble goal. He really represents the realities of war. Katniss's naive desire to save everyone is impossible in war and Gale serves to illustrate that. His trap was ruthless, but his responsibility for the outcome of 13's attack is questionable. It's never revealed if he knew his idea would be implemented and he certainly never knew Prim would be called in - that was all Coin's behind-the-scenes machinations to break Katniss.

I find your reading of Katniss and Peeta interesting because it's so positive.

I think Peeta is a fairly decent character, morally-speaking, but I do think some of his behaviour is a bit unfair. Even after he finds out Katniss doesn't really love him and suggests they start over as just friends, he's a bit pushy. He does things that are most certainly not platonic such as making comments about his undying love for her and playing with her hair and holding her hand. Katniss doesn't rebuff him exactly, but she does think to herself many times that he makes her uncomfortable with his actions. She gives pretty mixed signals, though, so I can see why Peeta persisted.

Katniss herself I find to be something of a mary sue. She certainly is presented with flaws, but she very rarely ever suffers consequences for them. It gets better as the books go on, but in the first book especially it's pretty bad. For example, we're told repeatedly that Katniss doesn't make small talk, doesn't have friends apart from Gale and Madge, doesn't smile and isn't pleasant. However, everyone in her district loves and respects her, even before she volunteers for Prim. She has no problem collecting ride or die buddies - she even wins over Joanna, who loathes her - without ever being friendly or demonstrating interest in their lives. She never talks to anyone, but two guys are in love with her. She's outright scornful of many people who like her, such as her prep team. She's pretty judgmental inside her head.

I also find her quite selfish. I know she's a 16-year-old girl, but her petulant refusal to be the Mockingjay despite knowing the revolution hinges on her comes across as selfish to me. She doesn't suffer too many consequences for her selfishness,and in the case of refusing to be the Mockingjay she's actually rewarded for holding out rather than being punished for it (although admittedly, she held all the cards - which made her refusal more egregious to me).

I don't see her story with Peeta as terribly romantic. It came across to me like she sort of just gave into Peeta eventually, rather than us seeing her fall in love.

The thing is, I can't tell if those problems are with Katniss or with Suzanne Collins' writing. I really enjoyed the books, but I don't find her to be a good author. Her world-building stood out as especially poor to me.

I love FInnick, though. I love that he's layered and damaged but still a good person. I was pissed with how his death was handled! Poor guy deserved to be mourned.

Sorry for the multiple posts. I can't post one big one or the text client freezes up on me!

10 hours ago, Vex said:

I agree that Katniss never showed any real romantic attraction to Gale, which is why I'll never understand the claims of 'love triangle'. Katniss was very close to Gale and had no romantic experience and questioned whether her feelings might be romantic, but that's as far as it went.

I wouldn't go so far as to say Gale is vicious and terrible human being. He's an extremist who is willing to be cold and ruthless when he believes it's for the greater good. He'll kill as many Capitol citizens/loyalists as needed to free the districts and end tyranny, which is in and of itself a noble goal. He really represents the realities of war. Katniss's naive desire to save everyone is impossible in war and Gale serves to illustrate that. His trap was ruthless, but his responsibility for the outcome of 13's attack is questionable. It's never revealed if he knew his idea would be implemented and he certainly never knew Prim would be called in - that was all Coin's behind-the-scenes machinations to break Katniss.

I agree very much with your interpretation of Gale, although I still think he's horrible. Maybe i'm letting myself get carried away with my hatred towards him but his actions are left to be questioned so I think it's up to the reader.

10 hours ago, Vex said:

I find your reading of Katniss and Peeta interesting because it's so positive.

I think Peeta is a fairly decent character, morally-speaking, but I do think some of his behaviour is a bit unfair. Even after he finds out Katniss doesn't really love him and suggests they start over as just friends, he's a bit pushy. He does things that are most certainly not platonic such as making comments about his undying love for her and playing with her hair and holding her hand. Katniss doesn't rebuff him exactly, but she does think to herself many times that he makes her uncomfortable with his actions. She gives pretty mixed signals, though, so I can see why Peeta persisted.

Katniss herself I find to be something of a mary sue. She certainly is presented with flaws, but she very rarely ever suffers consequences for them. It gets better as the books go on, but in the first book especially it's pretty bad. For example, we're told repeatedly that Katniss doesn't make small talk, doesn't have friends apart from Gale and Madge, doesn't smile and isn't pleasant. However, everyone in her district loves and respects her, even before she volunteers for Prim. She has no problem collecting ride or die buddies - she even wins over Joanna, who loathes her - without ever being friendly or demonstrating interest in their lives. She never talks to anyone, but two guys are in love with her. She's outright scornful of many people who like her, such as her prep team. She's pretty judgmental inside her head.

I also find her quite selfish. I know she's a 16-year-old girl, but her petulant refusal to be the Mockingjay despite knowing the revolution hinges on her comes across as selfish to me. She doesn't suffer too many consequences for her selfishness,and in the case of refusing to be the Mockingjay she's actually rewarded for holding out rather than being punished for it (although admittedly, she held all the cards - which made her refusal more egregious to me).

I don't see her story with Peeta as terribly romantic. It came across to me like she sort of just gave into Peeta eventually, rather than us seeing her fall in love.

The thing is, I can't tell if those problems are with Katniss or with Suzanne Collins' writing. I really enjoyed the books, but I don't find her to be a good author. Her world-building stood out as especially poor to me.

I love FInnick, though. I love that he's layered and damaged but still a good person. I was pissed with how his death was handled! Poor guy deserved to be mourned.

Sorry for the multiple posts. I can't post one big one or the text client freezes up on me!

Bottom to top. Finnick is a complicated character and that's why I love him, sometimes you make up your mind about someone based on the first impression and people can surprise you, he's like that. Loyal and caring on his own way, very perceptive and charming. I agree, he deserved a better death (?).

I find interesting your perception on Katniss and Peeta's love story, the way it was handled can make people believe it was just an eventual consequence hence the circunstamces. I disagree though, I think there's many indications of Katniss falling in love with Peeta in a slowly and painfully way, they started off as total strangers and in a very slow pace they enter into an uneasy friendship that finally progresses into love. An unnatural relationship that is pushed towards every direction possible throughout the story with Peeta positioning them as lovers, the Capitol's push for a romantic angle, Gale's insistence on making Katniss choose and the revolution, are too many strikes piling up against a romantic connection that can't flourish like that even though there's an obvious love bond between them. 

The thing is, that Katniss is a practical realistic girl, she wasn't going to fall in love in a terribly romantic way, that's not her. Katniss model of love is protection, you can see that in the relationships with her family, especially Prim. She demonstrates her love feeding her, protecting her, sacrificing for her. During the first games, when she reunites with Peeta, she protects and provides for him, to Katniss that's love. Later, Peeta asks her if she's still trying to protect him and she answers "Because that's what you and I do. Protect each other". In Catching Fire she's willing to sacrifice herself for him, that's another indication. Although she's not a romantic girl, there's a lot of references of her thinking how much she misses him, how much his kisses make her feel, that she wants to be in his arms, those arms that makes her feel safe for the first time since her father passed. He is in her mind the whole time in Mockingjay, hell she almost rips Haymitch's eyes out for not keeping his promise of rescuing Peeta and she demands Coin to rescue him.

As for Peeta, he was very immature and learned the hard way to grow up. He lost the most (his whole family, tortured and brainwashed by the Capitol), and he had to learn to love Katniss again, which to me shows how strong their love was. Katniss also had to endure his hate and all that happened to Peeta, and that made them stronger. My grandma always say that you can't say you love someone if you're never been through hell together and made it, the so called 'love' for Gale never made it. But Katniss and Peeta's did, bigger and better. Their love actually blossoms when all the obstacles disappear, that's when they're free to contemplate each other in a romantic way.

Their story isn't like Twilight or any other unrealistic love story, theirs is all about protection and balance, he balanced her pessimistic gloomy essence with his good nature (not perfect I know but who is?). Her love for Peeta was gradual but in that lies the beauty of their relationship - unconditional til the end - debts on either side resolved and left with only the simple need for each other. 

As for Katniss behavior, well she was a teenager and I think she matured, she didn't faced the consequences of the war -at first- but she loses the person she loves the most at the end. I don't see her as selfish because she refuses to be the Mockingjay, we have to remember she was 16! She was afraid, she never wanted that burden in her shoulders, i'm 26 and i would run as fas as I can if someone tries to make a Mockingjay out of me. Yes, she wasn't the most pleasant person but which teenager in her position would be? Maybe I justify her a little too much because like her I don't have a sunny disposition but I find refreshing to have a female character that's not the typical ladylike crazyboy girl. She's gloomy and dark but we have to analyze her character based on her experiences, that's key to understand her nature. I like (not love) Suzanne's writing, it kinda gives a psychological tone to the story.

Ughh, I talk too much! It's okay if you don't read lol.

I can't stand Peeta. 

And I think the end is completely unrealistic and stupid. Most people, IRL, wouldn't have a lasting relationship with someone they met/got to know under that much stress and family circumstances. It just wouldn't happen. Peeta needs her too much, she doesn't need him like that, and I was actually disgusted at the ending. 

I was team Gale until the end, actually. 

But in my alternative world, she'd either stay single or marry someone completely different. 

I think that Katniss was justified in her fear and reluctance being the Mockingjay, but it's still selfish to say no when you have the fate of thousands of people's freedom in your hands. Fear and self-preservation are selfish motives, even if they're human and understandable motives.

I also agree with Maggie that Peeta is quite needy, which is something that Katniss doesn't seem to like in other people.  She never came across to me as sharing Peeta's feelings. She had feelings for him, but he was always hopelessly in love with her, and I would never describe Katniss as being hopelessly in love with Peeta at any stage. I thought the ending was a handwave that made no sense. Katniss and Peeta both seemed way too damaged to have a successful relationship together.

I also quite like Gale. I don't think you can say Gale was pushy without acknowledging Peeta did the exact same thing. In fact, both times that Katniss said she can't think about relationships to Gale, he accepted it. He was disappointed, but he backed off. He had a couple of moments where he got swept up in emotions and declared his love or kissed her. Peeta persisted the entire time and never stopped touching her or expressing his love, even after Katniss said she didn't love him.

I enjoy long posts, I read your whole reply (:

Just have to add, I think a lot of my issues with Katniss are down to the writing. I really enjoyed the books but I don't think Suzanne is a great author. The premise was excellent, and the world had SO MUCH potential that was never realised. I think that in the hands of a better author Katniss would be a flawed but still likable heroine - which it clearly Collins' intention - but to a lot of people (including me) she missed the mark.

For an example, look at the novel Battle Royal by Kōshun Takami. Similar basic premise. Lots of very flawed characters, but they're still likable and interesting. Even the one completely sociopathic character is interesting and somewhat pitiable. In his hands the characters were excellently written.

However, then there's the Battle Royal manga. It's based on the novel, but Kōshun Takami had no involvement and it shows. In Takami's hands Shuya is an empathetic and optimistic boy who wants to hope for the best in his classmates, believing they are innately good and that will prevail. As he realises his optimism was misplaced he focuses on helping those he can and he understands that some of his classmates WANT to play the game.

In the manga, Shuya is so optimistic that he becomes a downright moron. He refuses to believe anyone is bad even when faced with overwhelming evidence that his fellow classmates are playing the game such as narrowly avoiding being axed in the head. He screams and shouts and rants about how they can still all be friends and somehow beat the game. The manga takes his personality traits and runs wild with them to the point where what should be a likable optimist becomes an infuriating, pig-headed idiot.

I think that the same character (Katniss) would have been everything Collins intended in the right hands.

@VexLol short reply cuz i'm on my phone ughh.. Never read that book! I kinda want now although i don't like manga... Lol seems interesting!

On 30/1/2016 at 10:57 AM, HermioneSparrow said:

@VexLol short reply cuz i'm on my phone ughh.. Never read that book! I kinda want now although i don't like manga... Lol seems interesting!

I highly recommend it, it's an excellent book. It has a similar premise (teenagers being forced to fight to the death by the government) but it's told from the perspective of many of the participants (who all go to school together, so it's more personal) and it's aimed at adults so it's somewhat more graphic.

The movie is excellent too, but they cut so much out that it's not as effective. A big part of the novel's impact is seeing the point of view of so many of the kids and seeing who they are as people, if they want to fight or run or try to work together. It has a greater sense of urgency because the game is limited to force them to play; they only have 3 days to play and if there's no victor by then they all die. If nobody dies within a 24 hour period, they all die. There's also over 40 kids involved. The characters are excellent, even the ones you only know for one chapter before their deaths.