On 13/7/2016 at 3:45 AM, Sabal said:

My FB feed is a disgusting display of divisive rhetoric that makes me cringe.  The #blacklivesmatter posts are always followed by someone posting #allLivesmatter 

Uhh... not the point 

Ten people sit around a table hungry. Everyone gets a plate of food except Dave.  Dave says, "My hunger matters!" 

Everyone else says, "All hunger matters!" , as they eat their food.  That is the point.

 

I dislike Facebook - especially these days.

 

I borrowed Sabal post because her explanation is just perfect and you'd better check the thread where it comes from.

All lives matter but some more than others. And if you like me are one of those who enjoyed white privilege since birth you may need to come out of your hole and listen a bit to POCs voices.

We know that all lives matter. We're focusing on the people that are systemically discriminated against because it seems like their lives don't matter as much. Shouting all lives matter is like running into a stranger's funeral and saying "I too have felt loss!!" It's a form a silencing and it's not ok.

I think you should listen to @laPapessaGiovanna's suggestion. It's very good advice.

I think you missed the point, mate. You are trying to simplify a problem that is centuries old. To say "All lIves matter" is just another way of silencing the people that have been harmed by systemic racism. I think it is pretty much a given that white lives matter. They always have. The Black Lives Matter movement is saying their lives matter too. If you agree with what they are saying, then support it. Back it. Dont try to silence it.

I urge you to listen to the people that have been harmed by this and not shut their message down. You can't hear if you don't listen. 

Highly recommended

2 hours ago, myhobby said:

 

A link from my news feed.  I wish more people would read it and listen.

https://thsppl.com/i-racist-538512462265#.czazmcxik

 

As for me, I'll continue to speak out, but hopefully not over (the more important voices).  I'm only 1 person, and I probably won't change anyone's mind, but I couldn't sleep at night if I didn't at least try.

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omehow, though, even in the most heinous cases, where the evidence appeared to be overwhelming, like with Boyd and Diallo, police were set free because they claimed they felt afraid.

Boyd and Diallo were unarmed, non-violent, law-abiding people who were minding their own business. They did nothing, but police blew them to bits and were set free because those officers imagined weapons and threats that never existed.

In essence, the white imagination of a black threat has been deemed sufficient evidence for police to shoot and kill at will

Quoted from here www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-micah-johnson-making-america-racist-creation-article-1.2704556

ETA credit be with @iweartanktops for pointing out the article, unfortunately I didn't manage to quote her post from the Black Lives Matter thread. 

Again, I urge you into reading and taking part in that thread. It is educating and inspiring, for me at least it is.

9 hours ago, laPapessaGiovanna said:

I borrowed Sabal post because her explanation is just perfect and you'd better check the thread where it comes from.

All lives matter but some more than others. And if you like me are one of those who enjoyed white privilege since birth you may need to come out of your hole and listen a bit to POCs voices.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  That you would even suggest than some lives matter more than others is troublesome and feeds into the bigotry that exists in society today, at least in America.

1 hour ago, crazydaffodil said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  That you would even suggest than some lives matter more than others is troublesome and feeds into the bigotry that exists in society today, at least in America.

Are you saying that America has overcome institutionalised racism?And you could try explaining it to Tamir Rice parents, Philando Castile girlfriend and daughter, Flint citizens (just to name a few) and many other POCs. You may even start from FJ's POCs members in the Black Lives Matter thread. I highly doubt though that they will be particularly welcoming.

I saw this on Facebook the other day. Of course all lives matter. No one disputes that, but if all lives truly mattered in equal measure to all people then we probably wouldn't need to focus intently on any one group. I do get the knee jerk reaction. I've had to check myself on occasion, but saying Black lives matter is not saying no other lives do. It's just that for so long, by thought, word and deed, Black lives have been marginalized and trivialized, so yes, a spotlight being thrown on that is necessary.

@crazydaffodil and @laPapessaGiovanna, @AnywhereButHere: thank you for your statements, that helped me a lot making sense of the news (yes, the violent outburst of the last weeks made headline news in Germany, too). 

I tend to agree with you, crazydaffodil,  actually, but then, in the global perspective: I'm a white middle class European and - sitting in my nice, safe apartment with a full belly - I am part of the most privileged 10%. 

So, while I grieve for every life lost to violence, I also recognize the right of minorities to speak up against injustice specifically perceived by that group. 

4 hours ago, crazydaffodil said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  That you would even suggest than some lives matter more than others is troublesome and feeds into the bigotry that exists in society today, at least in America.

No one is saying that any lives matter less? Where do you see that from Black Lives Matter? It doesn't say Black Lives Matter More. It a statement. Black Lives Matter. Period.

All lives can't matter until Black Lives Matter. So let's start with them. And making sure Black Lives Matter is not going to make other lives matter less.

Also, if you have "no problem with Blue Lives Matter" it seems like the only problem you do have is with the word Black in this situation. And that's racist.

5 hours ago, crazydaffodil said:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  That you would even suggest than some lives matter more than others is troublesome and feeds into the bigotry that exists in society today, at least in America.

And in case you hadn't noticed I simply paraphrased Orwell's famous "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others". I wasn't implying that PPOCs lives are more valuable than others. I was just trying to underline that de facto (not only in America) POCs lives are valued less even if they are officially equal.

Sorry, I'm not up on my Orwell literary phrases.  What I don't like is people putting words in my mouth and making a statement as to how bad my statement was because of how they want to interpret it or spin it.  When I say All Lives Matter, that means all.  Black lives should be valued equally with white lives, with blue lives, with purple lives, with ALL lives.  If that means we focus on black lives to make them equal, I support that completely.  But what people are doing is the same as someone saying that they like cats and I scram why they hate french fries so much!  There's not a rational connection there.

@sophie10130, not only am I NOT racist, but you don't know me at all to make such an assumption.  I have no problem with Black Lives Matter and I have several African-American friends.  I treat them the same as all my other friends because I don't see the color of their skin.

1 hour ago, SrMaryEloquentia said:

@crazydaffodil and @laPapessaGiovanna, @AnywhereButHere: thank you for your statements, that helped me a lot making sense of the news (yes, the violent outburst of the last weeks made headline news in Germany, too). 

I tend to agree with you, crazydaffodil,  actually, but then, in the global perspective: I'm a white middle class European and - sitting in my nice, safe apartment with a full belly - I am part of the most privileged 10%. 

So, while I grieve for every life lost to violence, I also recognize the right of minorities to speak up against injustice specifically perceived by that group. 

I can understand. I too am European and I too didn't see a problem with coloublindness, after all why remarking racial differences if we want to stop discrimination right? Wrong.  Because you and I can afford to declare that skin colour doesn't matter anymore that we are all human, but POCs can't.  They have to explain to their children that they must not move when police pull them out for a broken tail light and many more things that you and I will never risk to experience.  Please Google Tamir Rice, Amadou Diallo, Rekia Boyd, Philando Castile and keep the tissues at hand. Then Google Flint water and then New York racial segregation.

Every white person is racist. I'm not saying you throw around the n-word or want to see black people killed with impunity. I am a white person. I have to overcome my internal racism on a day to day basis. If you have benefited from White Supremacy and White Privilege, you are benefiting from a system that was built on the backs of black slaves from the dawn of this country and continues to beat them down and not give them the same opportunities as white people. And that's racism. There's no way around it. There's no denying it and you just have to accept it and try to make it better.

The fact that you are willing to look past someone's race and not embrace them for their race is also a sign of racism. Color blindness is not a balm to racism. It upholds racist ideals that being black is a bad thing. It's NOT better to see someone as "no" color. It's better to see that they have had a different life than you and support them in that. Black people do not have the same upbringing as white people and to wash over that is cruel and insensitive.

29 minutes ago, sophie10130 said:

No one is saying that any lives matter less? Where do you see that from Black Lives Matter? It doesn't say Black Lives Matter More. It a statement. Black Lives Matter. Period.

All lives can't matter until Black Lives Matter. So let's start with them. And making sure Black Lives Matter is not going to make other lives matter less.

 

Also, if you have "no problem with Blue Lives Matter" it seems like the only problem you do have is with the word Black in this situation. And that's racist.

It sure is. Law enforcement officers accept a certain level of risk when they take the oath to serve and protect. Black citizens should not be assuming this same, or greater, level of risk by merely driving, walking, or standing. Law enforcement officers are generally held in high esteem by society at large. Black people, especially black males, are not.

This is why I find this whole discussion with some white people tiresome. Even a cursory examination of the facts and circumstances surrounding the all to regular killings of black people under the shield shows that their lives were not respected. Their lives did not matter to the offending officers. Why are there not more law enforcement killings of white males? Could it be that black males are profiled, and have many more police encounters?

So to turn the issue into something it isn't , while ostensibly promulgating a kum-ba-yah mantra of all lives, or blue lives matter, is disingenuous and in itself disrespectful to black people. The problem is far deeper than what can be captured by a slogan, and has existed for all of our nations history.

Accordingly, I am losing hope that the racial divide in America will ever be closed. We are very far from the promised land.

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I don't care what color your skin is, what religion you believe in, what your gender or sexual preference is, if you treat people with basic human respect and decency, your life matters!

The problem is with that "I". No one is accusing you specifically of racism, it's more complex than that. I can believe that you may be truly convinced of your statement and I may even commend you for it, but you live in a society and what matter is how society as a whole act towards POCs.  Do you really think that what you wrote above is the message that pervades the society you live in? Your Constitution's fourteenth amendment grants equality and basically say what you mean with "all lives matter", it's part of the Constitution, it's important and yet in Detroit someone wiped his own ass with the idea that all lives matter because in the end society basically said that poor, undereducated black lives with a criminal record and their children can drink poisoned water. If people react to this saying "but black lives matter!" and you react to their reaction saying "but all lives matter!" it's at very least tone deaf. Because black people are saying that in real life black lives don't matter like whites yet. They cannot afford to be colourblind, they live in their skin every day and they need to factor it in that there's the very possibility of being abused for no other reason than being black because it happens. Saying that "all lives matter" in this context,  albeit your statement being technically true, it's like you put your hands on your ears and start chanting lalala when they try to explain what their experience with discrimination is.

Let's make an example. It's fictional but plausible. Let's say that a LGBTQ teen suicides because bullied for being different. After this a movement manifests saying that "LGBTQ lives matter" would you go there to correct them saying that well "all lives matter"? It would be very tone deaf because that teen died for being an LGBTQ life not a life like any other. Hadn't been different from the other teens that teen would be alive.

Another example.  Lately it's trendy to say "I am not a feminist,  I am for equality". But equality is what feminism seeks, but in seeking equality feminists ,calling themselves "feminist" and not "equalists", try to point out where the imbalance still is. If you talk of "equalism" it's not clear where the imbalance is and you risk to feed the all too present idea idea that women have switched the imbalance and that there's no need for feminism because there's even the risk that men can suffer because systematically oppressed for their gender and we know that it's not exactly the case even if MRAs try to spread this concept.

Can you understand now? And yes if you condone this society's racism, if you shudder internally when you see two black men walking towards you at night because of your internalized racist prejudices,  then yes you are racist even if you truly believe in what you wrote above.

And now please come to the Black Lives Matter thread here or go on BLM forums and try to listen to POCs because I am a very white person and I can't explain better than this so if you want to truly understand you have to listen to them. 

@laPapessaGiovanna, you may be a very white person but I could not have said what you said any better. Bravo and applause. One of the main things I love about FJ is connecting with articulate and enlightened members such as yourself, especially the international ones that I would never connect with IRL. I appreciate your decency and I enjoy and learn from all your posts. Thank you!

6 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

@laPapessaGiovanna, you may be a very white person but I could not have said what you said any better. Bravo and applause. One of the main things I love about FJ is connecting with articulate and enlightened members such as yourself, especially the international ones that I would never connect with IRL. I appreciate your decency and I enjoy and learn from all your posts. Thank you!

Thank you @Silver Beach but I have to be honest: anything I may have learned on this topic is thanks to you and other FJers like @iweartanktops and @Jinder Roles. At the beginning in my ignorance and lack of experience I really thought that racism was nothing more than marginalized episodes and that in this day and age we could defeat what remained of it just behaving individually in a decent way towards all the people basically ignoring differences in name of equality.  But you and other FJers had lots of patience and you were really great sharing your experience and for me it was really illuminating and enriching and a mirror in which to watch my own involuntary racism and my complicity in this society. Thank you.

23 hours ago, AnywhereButHere said:

I saw this on Facebook the other day. Of course all lives matter. No one disputes that, but if all lives truly mattered in equal measure to all people then we probably wouldn't need to focus intently on any one group. I do get the knee jerk reaction. I've had to check myself on occasion, but saying Black lives matter is not saying no other lives do. It's just that for so long, by thought, word and deed, Black lives have been marginalized and trivialized, so yes, a spotlight being thrown on that is necessary.

This analogy does not work for me because in the world of cancer research, fundraising, awareness, charitable organizations, volunteers available to assist families and patients...well, no, it seems that all cancers do not matter. There are organizations that provide volunteer assistance to only breast cancer patients or only female patients. I know many people who think that breast cancer is the most frequently occurring cancer, is more likely to be fatal than any other, and is the number one killer of women. None of those things are true. We actually do need an all cancers matter movement. And I know plenty of people who truly do feel (and say) that we need to focus on other cancers. Especially in October when we drown in a sea of pink. I did some work to try to get public awareness of esophageal cancer (the fastest growing cancer in North America) in April. Couldn't get any media outlet to consider a story. Meanwhile every October, we are all drowning in  a sea of pink. 

Fair point.  What is it about breast cancer that fuels the interest? What is it about breast cancer advocates and their methods that gets their group pushed to the top of people's consciousness? What marketing is being done by breast cancer groups that isn't being done by others, or is it just that breasts (by marketing viewpoints) are "sexy" (no pun intended)? Although, that is sad and infuriating on many levels as well.

Maybe the analogy works for me, because for me personally, when I hear something about breast cancer, it does generally remind me of all cancer and that all cancer sucks and is important. I don't know anyone with breast cancer, whereas I do know several people with other forms of cancer, and I haven't donated anything recently to any sort of cancer research, so I'm not looking at it from a fundraising view. Maybe using cancer then isn't the best example, but I like the macro point, that focusing on one group doesn't/shouldn't take away from all others, it just highlights something that needs to be.

 @louisa05 Fair Point...of course racism doesn't work the same way cancer research and culture works so there are inconsistencies in the analogy. Ironically, breast cancer seems to be the dominant in the realm of cancer research. It certainly gets the most attention. 

There's an interesting book called "Pink Ribbon Blues: How Breast Cancer Culture Undermines Women's Health" by Gayle Sulik. It talks about the darker side of pink ribbon culture as well as what you touched on. 

On 7/14/2016 at 8:01 AM, laPapessaGiovanna said:

Are you saying that America has overcome institutionalised racism?And you could try explaining it to Tamir Rice parents, Philando Castile girlfriend and daughter, Flint citizens (just to name a few) and many other POCs. You may even start from FJ's POCs members in the Black Lives Matter thread. I highly doubt though that they will be particularly welcoming.

I would personally like to welcome you to the thread to participate and learn. @crazydaffodil

On 7/14/2016 at 11:32 AM, crazydaffodil said:

Sorry, I'm not up on my Orwell literary phrases.  What I don't like is people putting words in my mouth and making a statement as to how bad my statement was because of how they want to interpret it or spin it.  When I say All Lives Matter, that means all.  Black lives should be valued equally with white lives, with blue lives, with purple lives, with ALL lives.  If that means we focus on black lives to make them equal, I support that completely.  But what people are doing is the same as someone saying that they like cats and I scram why they hate french fries so much!  There's not a rational connection there.

@sophie10130, not only am I NOT racist, but you don't know me at all to make such an assumption.  I have no problem with Black Lives Matter and I have several African-American friends.  I treat them the same as all my other friends because I don't see the color of their skin.

"I don't see color," and various similar statements are highly problematic. I'm really tired. This last couple of weeks has just devastated me, so I'm not sure how well I can explain right now, but it's important to see and acknowledge color. It's important to really hear POC, and what our experiences are. It's important to educate yourself about systemic racism. I cringe when I hear people say that they don't see color. To me, it screams ignorance. If you would like to expand your thoughts on the subject, I'm happy to share some great articles with you. 

@crazydaffodil, it sounds like perhaps you don't really understand BLM. I would encourage you to educate yourself more on the subject. There are some wonderful people here on FJ who can help. If you did understand BLM, you would see how dismissive it is to toss out "all lives matter" as a response. 

I always heard white people saying "I don't see color" and for the longest time I didn't see a problem with that statement, until it was explained to me that not seeing color is a white privilege and it also isn't acknowledging white privilege. 

I love how everyone judges me like they know me based on a couple of sentences.  People who DO know me, know better.  But I thank you all for your taking time to think about this issue and expressing your thoughts on it.  The more we put thought to these issues, the more we can work toward solutions.

Just sayin...

On the internet people can only judge you by what you write. What you have written shows that you aren't fully grasping what BLM stands for and that it shows a hell of a lot of white privilege to claim to not see color. 

Maybe you should put some more thought into these subjects, just saying.....