Jill Duggar is Now a Lay Midwife

[Witsec7]

I allowed a CNM Instructor to attend me after I transported to the hosp. upon some previously agreed upon items with my home birth OB. She was an amazing person. I would think her range of experience was of great benefit to her students. I also received weekly care by a CNM during my pregnancy in between OB visits.

Edited to add: AR sets the bar pretty low for direct entry MW. They justify it because they are serving lower income women. Like lower income women and their children don't deserve a qualified CNM.

No I would never have someone like Jill or her instructor attend me in a pregnancy.

[Evilbad]

I don't think Jill wants to get married and have babies. I doubt many of the older Duggar girls do. After raising your siblings and essentially being a housewife without the glory, I can't imagine any of them are all that anxious to take on a new headship and start popping out babies.

I doubt she'll ever go to community college or any real college, though. Remember, ma and pa duggar were okay with education for themselves, but want their kids to work with their hands and be self-supporting. Can't do that with a college education!

[Gil]

so...when's Smuggar going to law school, then? ;)

[luckystone]

so...when's Smuggar going to law school, then? ;)

Was that really what he wanted? Do you think they didn't allow it or he was too lazy?

[CanadianHippie]

Was that really what he wanted? Do you think they didn't allow it or he was too lazy?

Not to long ago, he was still talking about becoming a lawyer, but doesn't seem to have done anything towards that goal. My votes on "too lazy".

[Gil]

Not to long ago, he was still talking about becoming a lawyer, but doesn't seem to have done anything towards that goal. My votes on "too lazy".

^ I'm with this. Didn't he make a reference to it when they were running around with Santorum?

[Muriel]

Admittedly, I have done little research on this topic but I'm pretty sure we aren't the only country that has an RN based midwife track. I know of a couple of Carribean islands (St. Kitts and Nevis to be exact) and the UK all utilize the RN-midwife track. I don't really understand the fear of nursing dogma when it comes to midwifery. Nursing would seem to be an essential foundation to almost any health related post grad because it gives you a broad foundation to build your specialty on. I understand that midwives were "non-medical" practitioners 100 years ago but does it really make sense to see it in the same way today? What am I missing?

In France, for becoming a midwife, you have to attend a year of medical school and next, four years of midwifery school, located in a University Hospital. Before doing this, you need first a High School Diploma majoring in science (baccalauréat scientifique).

Midwives are highly qualified professionals here, a lot of them work in hospitals, they can also attend home births, but home births are not very common in France.

I'm quite surprise of the numerous kind of midwives you have in the States, I did a google search and I also found that the requirements are different from state to state, not very easy too understand :oops:

[geniebelle6901]

No way, no how will Jill ever become a higher level midwife. Once TLC cancels 19 KAC she and the older girls will be married off ASAP, as will JD and Joseph. Jill being a midwife is nothing more than another shut up internet stunt.

[bananacat]

I don't think Smuggar has the educational background to ever get into law school. It's not just about being lazy. His parents failed him by giving a sad excuse of an education and he wouldn't be able to cut it even if he were very hard-working. If he did somehow manage to get accepted into law school, his parents would never let him attend unless it was some conservative Christian law school. So it's a combination of laziness, lack of education, and his parents not allowing him to. I think we all knew from the very beginning that he would never achieve that goal.

[Lady_M]

Admittedly, I have done little research on this topic but I'm pretty sure we aren't the only country that has an RN based midwife track. I know of a couple of Carribean islands (St. Kitts and Nevis to be exact) and the UK all utilize the RN-midwife track. I don't really understand the fear of nursing dogma when it comes to midwifery. Nursing would seem to be an essential foundation to almost any health related post grad because it gives you a broad foundation to build your specialty on. I understand that midwives were "non-medical" practitioners 100 years ago but does it really make sense to see it in the same way today? What am I missing?

Totally agree with 19 dogs and counting here.

When I did my nursing clinical rotation in OB, I was really amazed by how knowledgeable most of the labor and delivery RNs are. From what I understand, plenty of RNs start in postpartum and work their way into labor and delivery if they're interested in that area. Labor and delivery is considered a critical care area in many hospitals and most RNs going into it spend a considerable amount of time training with a preceptor prior to being on their own with patients - and even after training ends, they still have a staff of experienced people around them to ask questions or seek advice (or sound an emergency code). They see hundreds of births (literally) including ones that go badly wrong and become familiar with the early warning signs that something's not going right as well as interventions. They know for themselves what advantages/disadvantages medical intervention carries and what's available in terms of medical intervention in a bad birth situation and how fast it needs to be accessed to be effective.

The CNMs I've met largely don't seem to have a fear of medical intervention - they think it's great for women to have an alternative to hospital birth and a more comfortable environment with less chance of unnecessary medical interventions and believe in natural birth - but also aren't afraid to say that the situation has progressed beyond what they can handle and it's time to go. Not to say every CNM is like this, but that's what I've mostly gathered from the ones I've spoken with.

This is to say, while I'm sure there are lay midwives out there that are prudent and well-trained, the training specifications just don't seem as rigorous. And while I'll admit a certain bias (as a nurse myself, although not in L+D), I see the nursing training as a helpful thing.

[JMarie]

This girl is not ready for what's to come. She's probably attended 5-6 happy normal births.

When birth goes south, it goes fast. Shoulder dystocia, hemorrhage, retained placenta, abruption, just to name few. You have to be quick on your feet and you need to know what the next step is automatically. No time to stop and ask Jesus.

Example:

Extreme post-partum hemorrhage, sometimes when the uterus can't clamp down properly, you have to do it for her. This entails inserting your fist into the birth canal and applying pressure integrally and externally. Meanwhile, blood is pumping down your inserted arm. This is called Bi-manual compression.

Can you really see this sheltered girl pulling this off? Or even able to watch , so she can learn? Midwifery is not all cute babies and happy families. Sometimes it's downright brutal, scary and depressing. Just my .02 as a former midwife. Now, back to lurking.

Would she know what to do if a patient had a seizure or an asthma attack? Does she know how to use a glucose monitor, for diabetic patients? Even though she's only there for one task, she needs to take care of the whole patient, and there are many many conditions that don't involve the female reproductive system.

[Mela99]

How good does she look in scrubs. I mean, not to look at, but the fact that she's out of the house doing something!

I wonder if she is wearing scrub pants. I would assume it is a hygiene issue, you have to cover your legs and feet -- no flip flops.

[pixydust]

I'm really hoping that this is part of a "Jill getting out" plan. She is the only daughter to have a job, and it is something that could become a career, and a way to support herself. She won't be wealthy, by any means (a tell all book would help with that! I buy it on the day it is released, I'm sure that many of us, if not most, would) but she could take care of herself and a sibling or two while they get their sea legs.

I used to think that Jill would be the first to leave, and sometimes I still wonder. There is something about the way that she spouts off that makes me think that she doesn't really believe it, hell I did the same thing, it's kind of a "never let them see you doubt it" you get more freedom that way.

[Black Aliss]

I don't think Smuggar has the educational background to ever get into law school. It's not just about being lazy. His parents failed him by giving a sad excuse of an education and he wouldn't be able to cut it even if he were very hard-working. If he did somehow manage to get accepted into law school, his parents would never let him attend unless it was some conservative Christian law school. So it's a combination of laziness, lack of education, and his parents not allowing him to. I think we all knew from the very beginning that he would never achieve that goal.

For all we know, he may have taken the LSAT and bombed so badly even the Christian law schools wouldn't take him.

[jaynie]

I'm really hoping that this is part of a "Jill getting out" plan. She is the only daughter to have a job, and it is something that could become a career, and a way to support herself. She won't be wealthy, by any means (a tell all book would help with that! I buy it on the day it is released, I'm sure that many of us, if not most, would) but she could take care of herself and a sibling or two while they get their sea legs.

I used to think that Jill would be the first to leave, and sometimes I still wonder. There is something about the way that she spouts off that makes me think that she doesn't really believe it, hell I did the same thing, it's kind of a "never let them see you doubt it" you get more freedom that way.

I have been hoping this is the case for a while now. I did think Jill came across as a bit dim and very brainwashed, but I have to admit it would be a pretty clever exit strategy if she is so inclined. Play the perfect QF daughter -> get more freedom -> get legitimate training in an approved field -> have a money-making skill and stuff on the resume (even if she didn't want to go into the field, "apprentice lay midwife" looks a hell of a lot better than "stay at home daughter"). Of course there isn't really any way of knowing, but I have to say it's probably what I'd do if I were a SAHD. It's probably a better bet than: "be the rebellious black sheep -> get relentlessly punished and pushed into a 'gender appropriate' role -> have spirit crushed" which is apparently what happened to Jana early on and which is happening to Joy (though I seriously hope she's resisting in her tomboyish little heart of hearts).

[lilwriter85]

I wonder if she is wearing scrub pants. I would assume it is a hygiene issue, you have to cover your legs and feet -- no flip flops.

I think she probably wore scrub skirts.

[3 is enough]

AR sets the bar pretty low for direct entry MW. They justify it because they are serving lower income women. Like lower income women and their children don't deserve a qualified CNM.

Seriously, how f'd up is that? These women can't afford a doctor or CNM, so we'll let women with far less experience and education take care of them? Wow.

As far as Josh and law school is concerned, I can't imagine him ever getting accepted, unless he went to a real school for undergrad, and took a boatload of remedial English classes. I'm not familiar with the law school application process, but if it's anything like medical school, the prospective students would have to write an essay or personal statement. Josh has trouble stringing together 2 sentences, let alone an essay. I don't think law schools accept students whose writing skills are at freshman high school level, and that may be an overly generous assessment of Josh's writing skills.

[PokaDot]

Seriously, how f'd up is that? These women can't afford a doctor or CNM, so we'll let women with far less experience and education take care of them? Wow.

As far as Josh and law school is concerned, I can't imagine him ever getting accepted, unless he went to a real school for undergrad, and took a boatload of remedial English classes. I'm not familiar with the law school application process, but if it's anything like medical school, the prospective students would have to write an essay or personal statement. Josh has trouble stringing together 2 sentences, let alone an essay. I don't think law schools accept students whose writing skills are at freshman high school level, and that may be an overly generous assessment of Josh's writing skills.

Does SOTDRT even cover essays?

[pixydust]

I have been hoping this is the case for a while now. I did think Jill came across as a bit dim and very brainwashed, but I have to admit it would be a pretty clever exit strategy if she is so inclined. Play the perfect QF daughter -> get more freedom -> get legitimate training in an approved field -> have a money-making skill and stuff on the resume (even if she didn't want to go into the field, "apprentice lay midwife" looks a hell of a lot better than "stay at home daughter"). Of course there isn't really any way of knowing, but I have to say it's probably what I'd do if I were a SAHD. It's probably a better bet than: "be the rebellious black sheep -> get relentlessly punished and pushed into a 'gender appropriate' role -> have spirit crushed" which is apparently what happened to Jana early on and which is happening to Joy (though I seriously hope she's resisting in her tomboyish little heart of hearts).

Exactly, and if that is her plan, it is working brilliantly, first she got the password to the internet (she and Mullet are the only ones who can get past the parental controls), Jill could be googleing her little heart out! and now a job without another family member present. Even if the ladythat she is working with is fundie lite, Jill is getting out there more and more. I picture the J'slaves as birds in a pretty cage, and someone opened the door and let Jill out. She may still be chained to the cage, but at least she can fly a foot or so before she has to come back.

[bananacat]

I don't think it's very likely that this is part of some scheme for Jill to escape and become an independent adult. I wonder if she even gets to have access to her own money. I suspect it's in some joint bank account where one of her parents has equal access to it, and she is expected to save any money to transfer over to a future husband. If she tried to leave, the parent would drain the account before she could get to it. And that's being generous. I wouldn't put it past Jim Bob to just take all of the money and put it in his own account and then keep a record of how much "belongs" to Jill. That's how they do it with allowances. Instead of giving kids money, they keep track of credits and then subtract from each kid's ledger when they make a purchase. Oh sure, they claim that it's because kids lose money but we all know that it's to make sure they can't buy anything without parental approval.

I highly doubt Jim Bob would trust any child, especially a daughter, to have her own money without supervising how she uses it. They don't even trust boys to see their sisters's collarbones. I don't think Jill is getting as much freedom as it appears.

[tropaka]

Just adding hat Canadian midwives must be RNs as well.

[marmalade]

For all we know, he may have taken the LSAT and bombed so badly even the Christian law schools wouldn't take him.

Don't you have to have an undergrad degree to sit for the LSAT these days? I don't think they let just anyone into those exams.

[FundiesInMyFamily]

I hope this fundie light supervisor and other people she will encounter will be good influences on her. Even a 'fundie light' influence is a step up, she may she small changes in lifestyle that appeal to her. We all know that you can wear pants, have a job, make your own money, and watch the news all while being a good christian, but she doesn't know that. Seeing someone do things differently while loving god at the same time might help dilute the koolaide a bit.

[gilora]

I don't think it's very likely that this is part of some scheme for Jill to escape and become an independent adult. I wonder if she even gets to have access to her own money. I suspect it's in some joint bank account where one of her parents has equal access to it, and she is expected to save any money to transfer over to a future husband. If she tried to leave, the parent would drain the account before she could get to it. And that's being generous. I wouldn't put it past Jim Bob to just take all of the money and put it in his own account and then keep a record of how much "belongs" to Jill. That's how they do it with allowances. Instead of giving kids money, they keep track of credits and then subtract from each kid's ledger when they make a purchase. Oh sure, they claim that it's because kids lose money but we all know that it's to make sure they can't buy anything without parental approval.

I highly doubt Jim Bob would trust any child, especially a daughter, to have her own money without supervising how she uses it. They don't even trust boys to see their sisters's collarbones. I don't think Jill is getting as much freedom as it appears.

This. Remember Michelle's worksheet stating that a wife must be financially dependent on her husband? I'm sure the same is true for an unmarried daughter and her father. Whatever money Jill earns (if any as she is still an apprentice) most likely goes to Jim Bob. To the extent he is "segregating" Jill's money, it would only be to turn it over to her husband.

As for Josh and law school, aside from being too lazy he's also too stupid.

[YPestis]

I think any if outside exposure will be good or th duggar kids. Maybe Jill will find a mentor, be exposed to people with different beliefs, see that women can do more than keep house and have kids. Then again, this could just be a weigh station for Jill until marriage. The duggar kids are actually pretty exposed for ultra fundie kids. The maxwell kids are the ones who really need a job. The maxwell girls would benefit greatly from a lay midwife job, however hell will freeze over before Steve will let that happen.

As for josh and law school. There are some pretty crappy law schools. If josh decides to out in some effort, he can get into a marginal one. However, the problem would be funding. Law school is not cheap and scholarships require hard work and academic achievement of some sort. Josh may not have the tools to do well enough in college. I think that may be the real reason for Josh's reluctance to start law school. Well, that and having to support a family at such a young age....