Babies' Bodily Rights Trump Religious Views on Circumcision

[luckystone]

I am so happy with this ruling.

[freejoytoo]

I don't think you will ever know how hard it is to be in an ethnic minority until you actually are one. I lived in Mexico for three months and as a tall, fair British woman I stuck out a mile. I got stares, I looked totally different and with the language I was lost at times. That was difficult for me and I was part of a placement with European and American people who I could communicate with easily. It's going to be twenty times harder as a permanent move and starting out.

I really, really don't get circumcision for cosmetic reasons. Why do you want to do it so the kid 'looks like Daddy'? Ew. They both have penises anyway, why does it matter if they're trimmed or not? I certainly don't compare my privates to my mother's!

[lawfulevil]

Doesh anyone have more rum? Somejerk drank alla mine. *hiccup*

[Sumeri]

The issues with multiculturalism shock me as an American who has grown up with such a diverse amount of people. It's what I love about living in the US: All the numerous cultures and all the colors and shapes and sizes and languages I see and hear and have learned about. It just really surprises me to hear people act like those different don't belong in "your" country. This sort of thing isn't discussed much where I live, the different cultures and religions, etc. It's just how it is. After 9/11 the local mosque here was trashed on the outside by a few assholes and many people, including the Christian churches and synagogue, pulled together and repainted that mosque.

What's with the anger and hostility toward differences? Do immigrants not try to obey the laws? Most do that I've met, but are laws are probably not as strict in some ways, maybe? I don't know. As for what the US does with refugees, they do many things. They offer money and give them a place to live, usually in a community or area with other refugees so they'll feel more comfortable being around those who relate to their circumstances. The gov't and local businesses and people will help them get supplies for children for school, which is free. Many resources are available to them just as any person on a visa or who's a citizen. For more info, I suggest looking into Clarkston, Georgia (USA) resources. Clarkston area has (or did have) the largest number of refugees in the US.

The way it works here, and we have a very, very large refugee population from Myanmar,is that they aren't "given" anything - they get a low interest loan to come here, and a (really crappy, imho) job. Local churches have bedding and household and school supply drives. Given what these people have escaped in their homeland, I think we could do much more, actually. I grew up in a really diverse neighborhood, it's what I miss the most, so I am delighted that we have new neighbors. It makes me so happy to go to the grocery store and be surrounded by other languages, or have the nice Karen man at the asian market try to teach ME some new words. We live in the United States, melting pot and all that -- why shouldn't I learn? (General question dairyfreelife - not directing all of this at you).

Also, here's what has happened here. I live in just about THE most depressed and ugly town in the upper midwest, it was a mess a few years ago. Boarded up buildings, no jobs, people leaving left, right and center. The largest local business (Hutterite owned, actually - talk about different cultures!) needed workers. They started to offer these low interest loans to families who wanted to move here. Refugee program was started. Our population has increased dramatically. Crime has gone down. The families that moved here have started buying homes of their own. Real Estate market improved. They needed cars. Yay for the car lots! Several new preschools were opened. Affordble apartments and houses are being built again so contractors have gone back to work. Grocery stores now have business - AND the new citizens have started businesses of their own, so my depressed little town now has several asian and mexican markets, good restaurants...and the best thing? More open minds. There was a lot of fear when these programs were started. Now I would say most residents wouldn't want to go back to the way things were before.

Anyway. all for multiculturalism here.

[Arielkay]

Only here would we get a thread on immigration out of a post about circumcision. If I'd started drinking at the beginning, I so would not be able to get to work this morning.

Peanut butter, circs, pregnancy and anything, natural childbirth, home birth, breastfeeding, baby wearing, cosleeping, to shave or not to shave . . .

They say not to discuss religion or politics with people unless you want a fight. I would add parenting to that list, for sure.

[nataraja]

Luckily, the last months there has been a debate about how mosques are oppressing women's rights, and some very brave islamic women have been very oustspoken about the practices.

When I first read this I got confused. Because a mosque is a building which isn't able to oppress anybody. Were you talking about the traditional gender segregation during prayer? Some Muslims have been telling that they are doing this to prevent men from staring at the women's butt while they are praying.

Or did you argue that muslim congregations oppress women?

(Not sure if this was good english if it wasn't a appologize.)

[JaChelle Sugar]

Doesh anyone have more rum? Somejerk drank alla mine. *hiccup*

Its time to bust out my bottle of ready-to-drink pina colada (and I think I have some gin somewhere too)! Cuz I'm classy that way. *passes bottle around*

[Cran]

I'd like to chime in on the "multikulti"-thingy:

While multicultural is the only translation available, we usually do mean something different in German when we say "multikulti".

"Multicultural" has positive connotations (people of different backgrounds living together, learning from each other), "multikulti" is more... like.... "Yeah, let them live in their parallel society, don't make them do ANYTHING against their traditional values even if it is against or law....!"

So when Merkel used this phrase, she wanted to say something like this: "While we appreciate the richness of different cultural backgrounds with all the wonderful things they offer, we have to insist that leaving everything to regulate itself when it comes to immigrants did not work out. It is unacceptable that parallel societies are forming, with little or no interaction with Germans, where the knowledge of German in the second or third generation born here is worse than in the first, where cultural values trump German law (like honour killings and forced marriages)."

But this is soooo long, mulitkulti had to do it *g*.

Personally, I favour this law. Maybe I wouldn't if I ever had seen a circumcised one... btw, circumcision is not strictly Jewish, Muslims do it too, so please, this "Germans making laws against JEWS!!!!!!!" is pretty inaccurate.

[celestial]

It is unacceptable that parallel societies are forming, with little or no interaction with Germans, where the knowledge of German in the second or third generation born here is worse than in the first

The first part of your statement seems very different from the idea we have here in the US, or in my part anyway. Everyone here has their own cultural background. Most people just don't have the idea that there is one type of American that people need to conform to. There are Chinese-Americans, African-Americans, Euro-Americans, Arab-Americans, etc. We're all Americans. None of the above is the "right answer," they all are. I get the feeling it's not this way in many places in Europe, like there's a more uniform standard of speech, dress, belief, and behavior that everyone is expected to live up to. Why are these "parallel societies" that *gasp* behave somewhat differently than the mainstream supposed to be a bad thing, as long as they're not breaking any laws?

The second part of the statement seems hardly possible. Many studies have shown, here in the States at least, that the great majority of children are fluent in English by the third generation. If that's really not the case in Germany, it sounds like a failure of the education system. Children do need extensive support to learn a new language, especially if it's not being spoken at home.

[samurai_sarah]

The first part of your statement seems very different from the idea we have here in the US, or in my part anyway. Everyone here has their own cultural background. Most people just don't have the idea that there is one type of American that people need to conform to. There are Chinese-Americans, African-Americans, Euro-Americans, Arab-Americans, etc. We're all Americans. None of the above is the "right answer," they all are. I get the feeling it's not this way in many places in Europe, like there's a more uniform standard of speech, dress, belief, and behavior that everyone is expected to live up to. Why are these "parallel societies" that *gasp* behave somewhat differently than the mainstream supposed to be a bad thing, as long as they're not breaking any laws?

The second part of the statement seems hardly possible. Many studies have shown, here in the States at least, that the great majority of children are fluent in English by the third generation. If that's really not the case in Germany, it sounds like a failure of the education system. Children do need extensive support to learn a new language, especially if it's not being spoken at home.

About language acquisition - in the late 1970s and 1980s parents were discouraged from teaching their children more than one language, in Germany. It was supposed to be too confusing for a child. Hence, young children primarily learnt one language, i.e. the parental language. Some minorities took a different approach, and taught their children German, exclusively. However, those minorities were the ones in which the mothers knew German. They did that so their children would succeed academically.

Back in those days, the school system was laid out to give you four years of primary/elementary school, and then you went into a three-tiered school system. "Gymnasium" if you appeared academically gifted. "Realschule" if you appeared to be set for white-collar work. "Hauptschule" to prepare you for trade/manual labour. Moving upwards, from one type of school to another, was quite difficult. You had to perform exceptionally to do that.

Issues were that a) teachers weren't trained to help with language acquisition, b) in areas of high migrant density, children would speak their parents' native language whenever possible, c) parents often didn't understand the school system and that at age 10 you got a "life sentence", d) you got a "life sentence" at age ten, after only four years, which pretty much used to determine your future career, and e) language difficulties made it far more likely that you'd get sent to a "Hauptschule" if you were a migrant child. Basically, after four years of schooling, the system gave up on you, and it was very, very difficult to get out of that.

Another issue is that the Turkish minority in Germany constantly "reinvents" itself. They're the largest minority in Germany, and the one people appear to have the greatest issue with. Quite often, men of Turkish ancestry marry Turkish nationals from Turkey, as opposed to German-Turks. The next generation therefore is often second-generation yet again. It's only fairly recent that language skills became a requirement for residency, and that language courses became freely available.

Btw, Cran: I've never heard "multi-kulti" used the way you have. It's an interesting thought, and something I will think about it. May I ask which region you're from? North, South etc will suffice. Since I've never encountered it the way you have, I'm curious about regional usage.

Edited because I should proof-read before posting.