Babies' Bodily Rights Trump Religious Views on Circumcision

[keen23]

So which way should toilet paper hang, over or under?

Over. Always over. And, if I happen to visit your house, and notice you have it hung the wrong way, I'll correct it for you out of the goodness in my heart.

[tankgirl]

So which way should toilet paper hang, over or under?

Neither, you must of course use the holy family cloth.

[jesssnerch]

Neither, you must of course use the holy family cloth.

I literally laughed out loud at this! :lol:

[BlueChair]

Over. Always over. And, if I happen to visit your house, and notice you have it hung the wrong way, I'll correct it for you out of the goodness in my heart.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one. :whistle:

[Spartan89]

May I have half a glass of wine whilst I'm with child?

[Clementine]

If you break the law, you break the law. It's as simple as that. The Scottish police aren't going to excuse my speeding on the motorway on the grounds that I'm German, and German motorways don't have general speed limits either. Please don't conflate legalities with socio-structural issues.

Multiculturalism isn't about "us" versus "them", but about making it work together. That requires goodwill from all sides. But it's too simplistic to say "just learn the language" and "keep the laws", and assume that everything will be nice and dandy. Germany and the UK aren't that far apart, but it took me years to find my way, learn what certain sayings mean, learn cultural references, and so on. It would have been a lot easier for me to stop trying, tripping up, and trying again, and sticking to fellow migrants instead for company. But that's me, and I don't blame anyone who thinks their stay is temporary, and sticks to what they know.

"Assimilation" or "integration" sound so easy when you're in the majority, but you give it a go! Your best intentions aren't going to be worth much without the goodwill of the majority-society. I've been trying to get at that with my rants about Germany: Germany hasn't shown an awful lot of goodwill towards migrant populations it specifically invited. I know second and third generation minority members who are still called "foreigners". Bit disheartening when your own country considers you "foreign", isn't it? Now imagine hearing that every day of your life, how you're foreign, don't really belong, and so on. Why bother with a society that blatantly doesn't want you to be part of it? If you want to know more about this issue from the perspective of second and third generations, I suggest you read Ruth Mandel's (2008) "Cosmopolitan Anxieties: Turkish Challenges to Citizenship and Belonging in Germany".

And as for leaving, are you taking your cues from Kidist? Especially second and third generations are at home already. I'm a first generation migrant, and trust me, I don't agree with everything going on over here. Shall I leave, because I dislike some aspects and am vocal about it? Why would I? Why can't I disagree with things, when I live and work here? I pay taxes, and I bloody well will disagree if something directly impairs my quality of life, or that of my fellow human beings.

Oh, wait, I forgot again, you're not talking about human beings like me, but about nameless and faceless "others".

By the way, you haven't answered my question as to when a "temporary" stay becomes permanent. I'd like to know whether I should abandon my dreams of returning to Germany now.

Edited for punctuation.

I honestly believe that if you chose to move to a country to find a job there, you should learn the language. Period.

It would be ridiculous to move somewhere and expect to get by with just Swedish. Plus, it would be impossible for me to live a normal life in a society where I don't understand the street signs, can't read what the food labels says, can't go to get health care or visit a pharmacy and explain what I need. I would to anything to learn the language if I planned to stay more than a year in a country. What other way is there to do it?

And no, it's "not as simple as that". Our government (I am speaking for the Swedish government now, because I don't know how the German one handles these situations) and authorities still have a hard time taking care of abused children or women who live in immigrant families and who seek help, still refuse to investigate the mosques who preaches radical islamism that will supress women and children and still really don't know how to help the 70 000 children and teenagers that live in families who practices honour traditions.

Multi-culturalism will only work if everybody who lives in a country respects the laws and the costums that the country have and have the same view on democracy and human rights.

For it to work, it is also necessary that people have jobs, so that large immigrant groups don't end up in ghettos where 50% of the population is unemployed and never comes in contact with the society they live in, schools and health care can't provide proper services and the crime rate will go up.

Right now, the Swedish government has failed in these areas.

And it infuriates me that people who come here to seek asylum and want a better and safer life still have to face oppression from their own country men and mosques and we are just watching because it's a "cultural thing" and we don't want to be "intolerant".

Luckily, the last months there has been a debate about how mosques are oppressing women's rights, and some very brave islamic women have been very oustspoken about the practices. I hope that we will have some kind of spring revolution in the islamic society and I am sure that if so, it will be the women who will lead it. I will do my best to support their cause.

I hope that our politicians would be brave enough to admit that our version of multi-kulti hasn't worked. It has denied foreing people living here the same rights as we Swedes have and it is costing a fortune because immigrants aren't expected to work for the first 3-10 years they are here.

[No Fun My Babe]

+2 for Scientology and Circumcision. -1 for Multiculturalism. I've grown up and lived in the Washington DC Metro area most of my life (except for 5 years where I lived in a 95% White, English speaking area which was shocking to say the least), so maybe I'm biased, but I've always loved and valued what other cultures had to offer.

The part of the Metro area I live in now is predominately Spanish speaking, other than English (but also many Asians and Indians). I don't go out much now, but what wonderful food and music- how lovely to the ears to hear variations of the languages, even on my own street! It's so amazing to see such a blend of cultures coming together.

Do I think it's easier to get a job if you speak English in the U.S.? Sure, usually. But here, it's not really necessary. There are many types of jobs (especially lots of construction going on here) where one would never need English.

Back to the original point: I've thought about this issue for a long time and I do consider circumcision little more than genital mutilation.

I can't drink, so I'm not sure how this works. Do I grab a handful of popcorn or what?

ETA: Missed something

[jesssnerch]

May I have half a glass of wine whilst I'm with child?

http://mommyish.com/pregnancy-health/st ... ebook-546/

[Terrie]

I honestly believe that if you chose to move to a country to find a job there, you should learn the language. Period.

I hope that I am correct in assuming this means you give a pass to refugees who may have bigger concerns than learning the language.

[NurseNell]

Alcohol burns my stomach. Can I have a Pepsi with my popcorn?

No Pepsi allowed, it tends to get made into an idol, can't have that here.

[Clementine]

I hope that I am correct in assuming this means you give a pass to refugees who may have bigger concerns than learning the language.

I don't know how you take care of refugees in the US.

But the people who come here to seek asylum are put up in apartmens (usually shared with other people who seek asylum) and given money from our government and given a lawyer, paid for with tax money, while they are waiting for the permit to stay.

It usually takes between six months and two years to get the permit to stay in the country, if they get it, and meanwhile, we support them.

If they are granted a permit to stay on the grounds that they need asylum, they will be given an apartment, money from our social security system to cover their basic needs, $150 per child in subsidiaries from the government, free childcare, free health care, obviously, and free courses in Swedish.

The only thing they have to do for the first years is try to take the courses and learn Swedish. If it takes one year to pass the exams, that's great. If it takes four years or more, because they are illiterate, that's fine too. We will support them.

So the only concern they have for the first years really... is to try to learn the language. After that they will are expected to study or seek jobs. If they can't find jobs, we will support them.

That's how it works here. I don't know the procedure how to introduce people who seek asylum in the US.

[samurai_sarah]

(snip)

I honestly believe that if you chose to move to a country to find a job there, you should learn the language. Period.

It would be ridiculous to move somewhere and expect to get by with just Swedish. Plus, it would be impossible for me to live a normal life in a society where I don't understand the street signs, can't read what the food labels says, can't go to get health care or visit a pharmacy and explain what I need. I would to anything to learn the language if I planned to stay more than a year in a country. What other way is there to do it?

There's more to learning a language than learning grammar and vocab. That's the easy part. Actually interacting is very difficult. Especially if you're in a situation, like the German one, where everything is geared towards keeping you within your ethnic group. I was functional in English, when I moved to the UK. Turns of phrase, humour and cultural references eluded me. If it hadn't been for an awful lot of people taking the time to explain stuff to me, I'd still be functional. (ETA: Thank you, all you kind people who took time out of your busy days to help lost little me.)

The point is that it is relatively easy to learn enough phrases to get by, but without the majority's goodwill, it's hopeless. Language comes with concepts, ideas and customs behind it. You don't learn those that easily.

And no, it's "not as simple as that". Our government (I am speaking for the Swedish government now, because I don't know how the German one handles these situations) and authorities still have a hard time taking care of abused children or women who live in immigrant families and who seek help, still refuse to investigate the mosques who preaches radical islamism that will supress women and children and still really don't know how to help the 70 000 children and teenagers that live in families who practices honour traditions.

How's the Swedish government doing on tracking abuse in ethnically Swedish families? How are they doing on hate-speech from ethnical Swedes?

Multi-culturalism will only work if everybody who lives in a country respects the laws and the costums that the country have and have the same view on democracy and human rights.

For it to work, it is also necessary that people have jobs, so that large immigrant groups don't end up in ghettos where 50% of the population is unemployed and never comes in contact with the society they live in, schools and health care can't provide proper services and the crime rate will go up.

When I moved to the UK, the government had just about ratified the Human Rights Act 1998. So close to disagreeing with the UK on the subject of human rights. But what if, say, you move to Saudi Arabia? Are you going to agree with everything? Hypothetical question, but I have friends who moved there for the money. They disagree, but don't break the law.

What's so wrong about neighbourhoods that contain a lot of migrants? The US and Canada seem to have dealt with that just fine. The more interesting question would be why there is so much unemployment amongst migrant populations. How do migrant populations compare to the majority society in terms of numbers? Which migrant populations are the most disadvantaged? Why?

Again, my examples come from Germany. There's a huge disparity between Asian migrant children and Turkish migrant children in terms of education and employment. It's not a matter of saying that one did right and the other did wrong, but asking why.

Right now, the Swedish government has failed in these areas.

And it infuriates me that people who come here to seek asylum and want a better and safer life still have to face oppression from their own country men and mosques and we are just watching because it's a "cultural thing" and we don't want to be "intolerant".

Maybe the Swedish government is asking the wrong questions? I honestly don't know too much about Sweden, except that I always laboured under the misapprehension that you guys had it figured out.

In my opinion the Catholic Church teaches misogyny and sexism. I'm not hearing a massive outcry about that.

Luckily, the last months there has been a debate about how mosques are oppressing women's rights, and some very brave islamic women have been very oustspoken about the practices. I hope that we will have some kind of spring revolution in the islamic society and I am sure that if so, it will be the women who will lead it. I will do my best to support their cause.

I'm glad you'll support the cause. Change doesn't happen from one moment to the next, and us migrants need the majority society to not just lump as all together as "the other". We need you to see that we're people, just like you. And we disagree on an awful lot of issues amongst ourselves.

I hope that our politicians would be brave enough to admit that our version of multi-kulti hasn't worked. It has denied foreing people living here the same rights as we Swedes have and it is costing a fortune because immigrants aren't expected to work for the first 3-10 years they are here.

Okay, here's something we can agree on. Our version of "multi-kulti" hasn't worked either, so it's time for a new approach. But "yay-ing" Germany for saying it out loud ignores that our situation is very different. The main migrant population in Germany, which is about 7% give or take, was specifically invited. That's the only occurence of "mass" migration, and some 40 years later, after some horrendous policies with regards to the people who live and work in Germany, suddenly everyone is wondering why things went wrong. If it took some 40 years to realize that things have been going wrong, the question is "why", and it's too simplistic to assume that the whole blame lies with any one party.

Edited for clarity, and because I do know English to a reasonable extent.

[keeperrox]

Back to the original point: I've thought about this issue for a long time and I do consider circumcision little more than genital mutilation.

Chug, chug, chug, chug, chug!

[notsocommon]

If we are doing 'hot mom topics' toss in ADHD. There is a whole host of fun, there from "your kid has ADHD because you feed them crap" and "ADHD does not exist, you are just a lazy parent" That is before you hit on the subject of meds!

[Witsec7]

Chug, chug, chug, chug, chug!

: Lolz. White wine, and weed. WTF I'm old and poor :lol:

[Maul the Koala]

If we are doing 'hot mom topics' toss in ADHD. There is a whole host of fun, there from "your kid has ADHD because you feed them crap" and "ADHD does not exist, you are just a lazy parent" That is before you hit on the subject of meds!

Ear piercing on babies!

Ugh. So many topics you can make drinking games out of.

[No Fun My Babe]

Oh alcohol, how I miss thee. Hope you all enjoyed that shot for me. I'm content with a bowl of caramel popcorn and some nice H20, but not Pepsi. Oh no, no no. Maxwell forbid.

ETA: Lame joke.

[Alecto]

So, honest question here - would a person from Germany be able to take their son to another country to get circumcised?

Because if so, I can see that as a viable option for those who do it for religious reasons.

[samurai_sarah]

So, honest question here - would a person from Germany be able to take their son to another country to get circumcised?

Because if so, I can see that as a viable option for those who do it for religious reasons.

If it's legal elsewhere, it's possible as long as the parents and the child resided there. However, taking a citizen from a country to have a procedure done that they didn't consent to, is a different ball-game. Unless there are medical reasons. That's a question for the EU Courts of Justice. EU law generally trumps national law, but unfortunately, I'm not up to date on this particular issue. :oops:

Edited to clarify.

[treemom]

She probably knows what the cost of the immigrants are (unlike Sweden where the government refuse to tell how much tax money we spend on accepting and supporting immigrants) and think that they should learn the language and follow the law in the country they choose to live in. It's not a very controversial point of view. We do have freedom of religion so everybody can believe whatever they want to, as long as their churces follow the law.

Oh I don't know, I think either point of view is controversial.

[Guest Anonymous]

: Lolz. White wine, and weed. WTF I'm old and poor :lol:

I live across the street from a state liquor store. Want me to pick up a bottle of Baileys?

[treemom]

One can both not be a fan of circ. and still thing Germany is wrong on this. I admit it is probably because I am a Jew, but I think people do all sorts of things more harmful than circing in the name of religion.

Also I am enjoying the drinking game

[pomology]

I have thought for a while that in our increasingly secular world this would happen somewhere, though I'm surprised its Germany of all places. I would have bet on somewhere in Scandanavia to take the plunge.

So this means that all future circumcisions are banned except on medical grounds, right?

I'm surprised it happened in Germany of all places, too, because Germany has taken such pains over the past sixty-five or so years to prove that it is not anti-Semitic.

And that's all I'm going to say in this thread.

ETA: Okay, fine I'm editing. But only to say that I was not intentionally trying to Godwin and was certainly not trying to imply that this was anything like what happened under Nazi Germany. Just that given that Germany has historically tried to be extra nice to the Jews ever since the Holocaust (at least in terms of things like having a good relationship with Israel), I'm surprised they would do something that would outrage Jews so much.

I'm simply being a bemused historian, here, not giving an opinion. Except that the drinking game is awesome and I love Lissar and Experiencedd et al.

[jessablessa4realz]

I am officially shitfaced after reading this thread...Thanks

[dairyfreelife]

The issues with multiculturalism shock me as an American who has grown up with such a diverse amount of people. It's what I love about living in the US: All the numerous cultures and all the colors and shapes and sizes and languages I see and hear and have learned about. It just really surprises me to hear people act like those different don't belong in "your" country. This sort of thing isn't discussed much where I live, the different cultures and religions, etc. It's just how it is. After 9/11 the local mosque here was trashed on the outside by a few assholes and many people, including the Christian churches and synagogue, pulled together and repainted that mosque.

What's with the anger and hostility toward differences? Do immigrants not try to obey the laws? Most do that I've met, but are laws are probably not as strict in some ways, maybe? I don't know. As for what the US does with refugees, they do many things. They offer money and give them a place to live, usually in a community or area with other refugees so they'll feel more comfortable being around those who relate to their circumstances. The gov't and local businesses and people will help them get supplies for children for school, which is free. Many resources are available to them just as any person on a visa or who's a citizen. For more info, I suggest looking into Clarkston, Georgia (USA) resources. Clarkston area has (or did have) the largest number of refugees in the US.