Babies' Bodily Rights Trump Religious Views on Circumcision

[Sumeri]

*dons flameproof suit*

I prefer a circumcised willy!

But, I don't think that any child should be circumcised unless there is a medical need. My hubby was trimmed, he had it done in his twenties due to medical needs and I much prefer how it is now. Prior to that, even though he showered daily, his willy got a bit whiffy after a few hours. Now it doesn't, so I prefer it as it is now to how it was then.

But again, unless there is medical need I don't think it should be done.

Not me, much prefer the uncut model. That said, my husband and I nearly got divorced over this subject when I was pregnant (blended family, all boys up to that point, his cut, mine not). He felt that by *not* having my boy circumcised I was actually telling him that I didn't like his equipment. Totally ridiculous and I wouldn't have had it done, so good thing we had a girl.

[Terrie]

That said, my husband and I nearly got divorced over this subject when I was pregnant (blended family, all boys up to that point, his cut, mine not). He felt that by *not* having my boy circumcised I was actually telling him that I didn't like his equipment. Totally ridiculous and I wouldn't have had it done, so good thing we had a girl.

... If you didn't like his equipment, how did you end up pregnant? ;)

[dairyfreelife]

Instead of re-hashing the same unwinnable debate on circumcision, why don't we discuss whether or not such a ban is actually enforceable?

That, at least, is interesting.

I'm not sure about Germany, but I know it would be next to impossible in the US. Too many religious parents, even non-religious ones want to circumcise. As long as there isn't proof of serious harm, religious parents are allowed to do as they wish.

As for me, I hope I have a daughter if I ever have a child. ;)

[freejoytoo]

Why do people do it for non-religious reason? I know in the USA the majority are circumcised but it's the opposite here in the UK. My friend is but it was for a medical reason.

[Terrie]

Why do people do it for non-religious reason? I know in the USA the majority are circumcised but it's the opposite here in the UK. My friend is but it was for a medical reason.

Historically, it was supposed to prevent masturbation. these days, it's mainly tradition.

[Sprocket]

Backing slowly out of the thread reaching for a jar of peanut butter wrapped in a cloth diaper....

:D The real question is: Do you have your shoes on whilst in the house?!

ETA: ah, that was already covered. I should have read the whole thread first.

[Terrie]

:D The real question is: Do you have your shoes on whilst in the house?!

ETA: ah, that was already covered. I should have read the whole thread first.

Plus, are you breastfeeding and vaccinated while doing so?

[Witsec7]

Plus, are you breastfeeding and vaccinated while doing so?

I'm vaccinated, but my womb is closed so BF is not part of the plan right now. But I did, so let's count up the drinks, 1 for vacc'd, 1/2 for BF (former) and 1/2 for a closed womb. I have flip flops on since I'm about to retreat to the garden :lol:

[Conuly]

Plus, are you breastfeeding and vaccinated while doing so?

Forget it. I keep telling everybody, if you really want to stir the shit the debate to bring up is SANTA. It's a little scary how quickly people who are happy calling each other child abusers will fall apart if you throw that one into the mix.

Why do people do it for non-religious reason? I know in the USA the majority are circumcised but it's the opposite here in the UK. My friend is but it was for a medical reason.

Actually, our circumcision rates in the US are dropping. Nationwide, the rates of boys (rather than grown men) are, I believe, just under 50%... although it's a very large and diverse country, so some areas have higher rates of circumcision than others.

As for why people do it, they mostly do it because it's what they're used to.

[keeperrox]

Bad mothers. All of you.

[CanadianHippie]

Having grown up in Canada and attended a multicultural school where Serbian was as likely to be heard in the hallways as English, I struggle to understand multiculturalism *not* working. To me, it doesn't mean people isolating themselves and refusing to participate in the host community, but rather retaining traditions and other elements unique to their home culture and sharing them with people from other backgrounds. I do think it's important for everyone to learn the language of the country they inhabit, but that doesn't mean they need to sacrifice their own language. I knew quite a lot of bilingual families when I was growing up, and others who attended Chinese school on Saturdays and otherwise spoke exclusively English.

This doesn't mean that it's acceptable for people to bring over and retain harmful traditions. However, many of these are covered by the expectation that immigrants conform to the law of the land in which they live, and I would rather see changes that prevent people of any cultural background from doing those that aren't covered (such as, for instance, favouring male children), than expect immigrants to integrate in order to prevent it.

It's not an all-or-nothing situation. Immigrants don't have to either wholly integrate into the host society or wholly remain apart, but can retain their own culture while functioning as part of the society in which they live.

Another +1.

But I'm another Canadian and the only difference between what you wrote and what I would have written is instead of Serbian it would be "Mandarin or Cantonese in elementary, Korean in high school, and various Asian languages in University."

[ChickeyMonkey]

What's LBD?

As to circumcision in religion, I can't believe how a man got other men to cut off skin in one of the most sensitive areas of their bodies - willingly! Can you imagine being the first test subjects? Ouch! And was there an inspection to see if all Jewish men/boys were circumcised when it first came into practice? Guys are so weird about their dicks that this just baffles me it happened.

[Childless]

Ugh. I can't imagine not living in a multi-cultural community. The different types of music, food, beliefs, etc. make life interesting. How boring would it be if we were all the same.

[Witsec7]

...Forget it. I keep telling everybody, if you really want to stir the shit the debate to bring up is SANTA....

I do defend the elfness, with a passion but 'tis not the season, that only happens after All Saints Day. :lol:

[keeperrox]

What's LBD?

Little Black Dress. Ie: It would be offensive to wear an LBD to a wedding and you will get chastised for it on the Internet.

[rollmeover]

Go Germany!

I love that the Germans aren't afraid to stand up and condemn certain religious and cultural traditions... unlike Sweden who are scared to death of being called "racist".

Germany has banned scientology, openly talked about the failures with multi-kulti and now this. It takes a lot of courage - I hope that more countries will follow.

Yay! Go Germany!

I mean, Germans making laws about what Jewish people can and can not do. What could go wrong?

[Guest Anonymous]

Yay! Go Germany!

I mean, Germans making laws about what Jewish people can and can not do. What could go wrong?

It's round about instead of straight on, but I'm calling Godwin. Drain the bottle!

[Clementine]

Yay! Go Germany!

I mean, Germans making laws about what Jewish people can and can not do. What could go wrong?

I think it's about time that governments put an end to abuse that is done in the name of religion.

I hope that more governments have the courage to speak up against other forms of abuse in the religious communities that they have swept under the carpet because they don't want to be "intolerant" or "racist": forced marriages, spousal abuse, honor killings, marital rape, spanking children and halal / kosher slaughter.

Our ancestors have fought hard so women, children and animals have laws protecting them. If people who chose to live here have a problem with that, I think they are better off moving to a country that accommodates their practices.

[dawbs]

Instead of re-hashing the same unwinnable debate on circumcision, why don't we discuss whether or not such a ban is actually enforceable?

That, at least, is interesting.

Would it/could it lead to 'black market' circs?

unregulated, black alley stuff?

(I honestly have no idea, which is why I"m asking)

(and as far as this:

Why do people do it for non-religious reason? I know in the USA the majority are circumcised but it's the opposite here in the UK. My friend is but it was for a medical reason

There is some info on disease transmission (not the UTI discussion, the HPV to female partners/HIV stuff) that...is probably not strong enough to be the only reason to circ, but is worth taking into consideration, IMO. I'd try good links article but...a lot of it is published/promoted by pro/anti circ. groups: http://www.medpagetoday.com/InfectiousD ... STDs/24217

)

[Witsec7]

It's round about instead of straight on, but I'm calling Godwin. Drain the bottle!

I can smell the smoke coming up from the chimneys all the way over in Boregon.

Kadish

[keen23]

It's times like these that I'm incredibly grateful that I only had girl children, and didn't have to have to make the circumcision decision.

[samurai_sarah]

I think it's about time that governments put an end to abuse that is done in the name of religion.

I hope that more governments have the courage to speak up against other forms of abuse in the religious communities that they have swept under the carpet because they don't want to be "intolerant" or "racist": forced marriages, spousal abuse, honor killings, marital rape, spanking children and halal / kosher slaughter.

Our ancestors have fought hard so women, children and animals have laws protecting them. If people who chose to live here have a problem with that, I think they are better off moving to a country that accommodates their practices.

If you break the law, you break the law. It's as simple as that. The Scottish police aren't going to excuse my speeding on the motorway on the grounds that I'm German, and German motorways don't have general speed limits either. Please don't conflate legalities with socio-structural issues.

Multiculturalism isn't about "us" versus "them", but about making it work together. That requires goodwill from all sides. But it's too simplistic to say "just learn the language" and "keep the laws", and assume that everything will be nice and dandy. Germany and the UK aren't that far apart, but it took me years to find my way, learn what certain sayings mean, learn cultural references, and so on. It would have been a lot easier for me to stop trying, tripping up, and trying again, and sticking to fellow migrants instead for company. But that's me, and I don't blame anyone who thinks their stay is temporary, and sticks to what they know.

"Assimilation" or "integration" sound so easy when you're in the majority, but you give it a go! Your best intentions aren't going to be worth much without the goodwill of the majority-society. I've been trying to get at that with my rants about Germany: Germany hasn't shown an awful lot of goodwill towards migrant populations it specifically invited. I know second and third generation minority members who are still called "foreigners". Bit disheartening when your own country considers you "foreign", isn't it? Now imagine hearing that every day of your life, how you're foreign, don't really belong, and so on. Why bother with a society that blatantly doesn't want you to be part of it? If you want to know more about this issue from the perspective of second and third generations, I suggest you read Ruth Mandel's (2008) "Cosmopolitan Anxieties: Turkish Challenges to Citizenship and Belonging in Germany".

And as for leaving, are you taking your cues from Kidist? Especially second and third generations are at home already. I'm a first generation migrant, and trust me, I don't agree with everything going on over here. Shall I leave, because I dislike some aspects and am vocal about it? Why would I? Why can't I disagree with things, when I live and work here? I pay taxes, and I bloody well will disagree if something directly impairs my quality of life, or that of my fellow human beings.

Oh, wait, I forgot again, you're not talking about human beings like me, but about nameless and faceless "others".

By the way, you haven't answered my question as to when a "temporary" stay becomes permanent. I'd like to know whether I should abandon my dreams of returning to Germany now.

Edited for punctuation.

[Sumeri]

It's times like these that I'm incredibly grateful that I only had girl children, and didn't have to have to make the circumcision decision.

Yep. It freaked me out when it became an issue in my house because until I met my husband it had honestly never occured to me. A lot of my, shall we say,material previous to him had been the non-circed variety, and my son's father wasn't cut either. So all of this macho "MY son will look like his FATHER!" stuff (really? As if they woud be flapping their wangs around at each other) just seemed so silly, and unnecessary.

So far as enforcing it? I don't know that they could. I would imagine that rabbis would still do it anyway.

[jesssnerch]

So which way should toilet paper hang, over or under?

[Terrie]

So which way should toilet paper hang, over or under?

If you have a cat, you hang it under. Unless the TP is meant as a cat toy.