Babies' Bodily Rights Trump Religious Views on Circumcision

[Clementine]

Go Germany!

I love that the Germans aren't afraid to stand up and condemn certain religious and cultural traditions... unlike Sweden who are scared to death of being called "racist".

Germany has banned scientology, openly talked about the failures with multi-kulti and now this. It takes a lot of courage - I hope that more countries will follow.

[Witsec7]

with multi-kulti ....

Whats multi-kulti?

[Clementine]

Whats multi-kulti?

Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.

She said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work, and immigrants needed to do more to integrate - including learning German.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

[Witsec7]

Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.

She said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work, and immigrants needed to do more to integrate - including learning German.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

Gottcha. Interesting, my parents were immigrants to the US, I grew up in a multicultural town that had a large immigrant population, I have a hard time imagining what it would have been like for me if everyone in my town was born in the same country, all had the same traditions, foods, celebrations etc. I don't think I would have learned quite so much about people and cultures and different faiths and traditions.

edited to add: If I did grow up in a white protestant homogeneous town it's likely that it would be rather easy for me to 'other' folks different than myself, or to fear them since I would have no knowledge of our shared humanity. It would also probably be easier for folks to manipulate me into thinking I was better than those 'others'.

[samurai_sarah]

Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.

She said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work, and immigrants needed to do more to integrate - including learning German.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

Angela Merkel made a populist statement, about an issue that is far more complex than populist statements allow. I don't really see that particular point as a reason to cheer Germany.

ETA: She did kick off a new and interesting debate though.

[CanadianHippie]

Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.

She said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work, and immigrants needed to do more to integrate - including learning German.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

Sounds more like the ramblings of someone who doesn't want to "live side-by-side" with 'those people' to me...

[Clementine]

Sounds more like the ramblings of someone who doesn't want to "live side-by-side" with 'those people' to me...

She probably knows what the cost of the immigrants are (unlike Sweden where the government refuse to tell how much tax money we spend on accepting and supporting immigrants) and think that they should learn the language and follow the law in the country they choose to live in. It's not a very controversial point of view. We do have freedom of religion so everybody can believe whatever they want to, as long as their churces follow the law.

[lilith]

There is something to be said for helping immigrants learn the language of the country they live in though.

By the second generation it's not generally a problem, but especially among women of the first generation who often stay in the home not having a common language with the community they live in creates intense isolation and leaves them very vulnerable.

[Clementine]

There is something to be said for helping immigrants learn the language of the country they live in though.

By the second generation it's not generally a problem, but especially among women of the first generation who often stay in the home not having a common language with the community they live in creates intense isolation and leaves them very vulnerable.

Plus the government must provide and pay for legal interpreters for courts, hospitals and government contacts.

The language is a problem for many second generations immigrants too. A lot of the immigrant families end up in "poorer" areas where there live very few people who speak Swedish as the first language, so the children don't hear it spoken properly and end up speaking some slang-version of Swedish with a lot of foreign words thrown in. They will have a hard time applying for jobs and getting a normal career with their pidgin Swedish.

[samurai_sarah]

She probably knows what the cost of the immigrants are (unlike Sweden where the government refuse to tell how much tax money we spend on accepting and supporting immigrants) and think that they should learn the language and follow the law in the country they choose to live in. It's not a very controversial point of view. We do have freedom of religion so everybody can believe whatever they want to, as long as their churces follow the law.

Ahem, you do know that "mass"-migration to Germany started in the late 1950s, while language programmes for migrants started in the 1990s? In the meantime, the West-German state did everything to try repatriating migrants, including offering cash-rewards. One of the few groups of "guest-workers" that received help with learning the language were nurses, because they had to know how to communicate. And they often found the language courses insufficient and paid for private tuition. At the time the German state desperately needed foreign labour, it did little to nothing to make the transition easier for people, but considered them "guests", who'd leave eventually. Oh, and did you know that up until the late 1990s, it was easier for a migrant from Russia, who could prove German ancestry 200 years ago, to become naturalized, than for a guestworker who'd lived and worked in Germany for some 30 years or so, and their children?

My point is that Germany's situation is specific and complex in its own way, just like Sweden's is. Making blanket statements about multiculturalism failing doesn't address anything, much less does it hide a lot of missed opportunities to try living side-by-side, within the German context. But then, I'm talking about human beings, and you're talking about costs.

[Clementine]

Ahem, you do know that "mass"-migration to Germany started in the late 1950s, while language programmes for migrants started in the 1990s? In the meantime, the West-German state did everything to try repatriating migrants, including offering cash-rewards. One of the few groups of "guest-workers" that received help with learning the language were nurses, because they had to know how to communicate. And they often found the language courses insufficient and paid for private tuition. At the time the German state desperately needed foreign labour, it did little to nothing to make the transition easier for people, but considered them "guests", who'd leave eventually. Oh, and did you know that up until the late 1990s, it was easier for a migrant from Russia, who could prove German ancestry 200 years ago, to become naturalized, than for a guestworker who'd lived and worked in Germany for some 30 years or so, and their children?

My point is that Germany's situation is specific and complex in its own way, just like Sweden's is. Making blanket statements about multiculturalism failing doesn't address anything, much less does it hide a lot of missed opportunities to try living side-by-side, within the German context. But then, I'm talking about human beings, and you're talking about costs.

I understand that it is a complex situation and the immigrants alone can't be blamed for the situation - at least our government has had a very strange politics when it comes to recieving immigrants and trying to get them a place in our society. If we want to live side by side in the same country, we all have to speak the same language, do our best to support ourself and follow the law.

It hasn't worked that great in Sweden, and apparently not in Germany either. I am happy that our governments are finally adressing the issue.

As for the language issue: where is the personal responsibility when it comes to learning the language in the country you live? The government didn't provide language courses so therefore it was ok that the immigrants never learned the language in the country they chose to move to...?

I don't buy that. If I move to another country, it is my responsibility to learn the language there. I can't blame the government if I don't. I think it's great that governments have language courses, but it is still my responsibility to learn it or not.

[Sola]

http://news.yahoo.com/german-court-outlaws-religious-circumcision-172728400.html

*dons flameproof suit*

I prefer a circumcised willy!

But, I don't think that any child should be circumcised unless there is a medical need. My hubby was trimmed, he had it done in his twenties due to medical needs and I much prefer how it is now. Prior to that, even though he showered daily, his willy got a bit whiffy after a few hours. Now it doesn't, so I prefer it as it is now to how it was then.

But again, unless there is medical need I don't think it should be done.

[lilith]

*dons flameproof suit*

I prefer a circumcised willy!

But, I don't think that any child should be circumcised unless there is a medical need. My hubby was trimmed, he had it done in his twenties due to medical needs and I much prefer how it is now. Prior to that, even though he showered daily, his willy got a bit whiffy after a few hours. Now it doesn't, so I prefer it as it is now to how it was then.

But again, unless there is medical need I don't think it should be done.

I too much prefer a circumcised willy, and actually had my first son booked in to be circumcised on those grounds, and so he would look like his daddy.

I cancelled the day of the appointment when I realised that:

a) my sexual preferences have nothing to do with my son.

b) the women of his generation will be used to uncircumcised penises

c) it's a slight difference to his father. They still both have penises and are obviously males

d) my preferences are not a reason to subject my 10 day old son to what is essentially, without a religious context, cosmetic surgery.

I didn't even consider it with my second son, and very few of their peers are circumcised.

[samurai_sarah]

(snip)

As for the language issue: where is the personal responsibility when it comes to learning the language in the country you live? The government didn't provide language courses so therefore it was ok that the immigrants never learned the language in the country they chose to move to...?

I don't buy that. If I move to another country, it is my responsibility to learn the language there. I can't blame the government if I don't. I think it's great that governments have language courses, but it is still my responsibility to learn it or not.

Most labour migrants to Germany experienced the following conditions: a) their work contracts were relatively short to begin with, b) they worked in manual labour and didn't need language skills that much , c) the government and their employers kept them housed together. Naturally, they formed networks. Naturally, when other opportunities came up, they stayed. And they regarded their stay as temporary. There wasn't much need for language skills. There isn't, when you work in a gang made up entirely of your own countrymen.

That's why I brought up the nurses! Their environment was different, and the state that INVITED the workers and offered giving THEM, and only them, rudimentary language skills. Please, bear in mind that I'm talking about people Germany specifically asked to come, so making language skills a personal responsibility doesn't work here. The German government asked people to come, but refused to help out with skills. Funnily enough, it did in the 1990s, when a flood of mainly Russian migrants of German heritage poured into Germany, which according to the then chancellor Kohl, were just the sort Germany needed. So much for the people who lived and worked in Germany, and raised children there, trying their best with limited resources.

[Sola]

Exactly. It is a cosmetic procedure, really. I didn't even entertained the thought of having my son done. Un-trimmed willies look strange to me now, but I don't see how it looks to be a good enough reason to put a child through what is a painful procedure. Neither do I think that religion is a good enough reason too. I mean honestly, if you think that your god wants you to be trimmed, why the hell didn't he make you ready-trimmed?

[Clementine]

What's your point? Most labour migrants to Germany experienced the following conditions: a) their work contracts were relatively short to begin with, b) they worked in manual labour and didn't need language skills that much , c) the government and their employers kept them housed together. Naturally, they formed networks. Naturally, when other opportunities came up, they stayed. And they regarded their stay as temporary. There wasn't much need for language skills. There isn't, when you work in a gang made up entirely of your own countrymen.

That's why I brought up the nurses! Their environment was different, and the state that INVITED the workers and offered giving THEM, and only them, rudimentary language skills. Please, bear in mind that I'm talking about people Germany specifically asked to come, so making language skills a personal responsibility doesn't work here. The German government asked people to come, but refused to help out with skills. Funnily enough, it did in the 1990s, when a flood of mainly Russian migrants of German heritage poured into Germany, which according to the then chancellor Kohl, were just the sort Germany needed. So much for the people who lived and worked in Germany, and raised children there, trying their best with limited resources.

At some point, one has to realize that the "temporary" stay in a foreign country isn't just temporary and start to learn the language properly. I am not just speaking about the immigrants in Germany who came before 1990, I am talking about everybody who goes to a foreign country to live, work and pay taxes there.

You will be in a very vulnerable situation if you don't speak the language, have a difficult time supporting yourself and your family if something changed regarding the employment and you can't just blame it on the government.

[samurai_sarah]

At some point, one has to realize that the "temporary" stay in a foreign country isn't just temporary and start to learn the language properly. I am not just speaking about the immigrants in Germany who came before 1990, I am talking about everybody who goes to a foreign country to live, work and pay taxes there.

You will be in a very vulnerable situation if you don't speak the language, have a difficult time supporting yourself and your family if something changed regarding the employment and you can't just blame it on the government.

By all means, do fix a time-limit for precisely when "temporary" becomes "permanent". Please make it generally applicable to all individual situations, and nation states. As a German who's been living and working in the UK these past 10 or so years, and still harbours the idea of going back, I'd like to know.

Look, I'm not saying that not knowing a language doesn't make you vulnerable, but that situations are very specific, and lauding Germany for claiming that multiculturalism failed is too simplistic. And we haven't even touched on ethnocentrism yet...

[freejoytoo]

Deep breath...

I'm with Maude and Sola. Unless it is for a medical reason then it should be left alone, or at least until the guy is an adult and can make his own mind up.

[Daenerys]

I have thought for a while that in our increasingly secular world this would happen somewhere, though I'm surprised its Germany of all places. I would have bet on somewhere in Scandanavia to take the plunge.

So this means that all future circumcisions are banned except on medical grounds, right?

[phereby]

"So this means that all future circumcisions are banned except on medical grounds, right?"

Not according to the article. The court ruling dealt only with circumcising children too young to make the choice for themselves.

[alba]

Attempts to build a multicultural society in Germany have "utterly failed", Chancellor Angela Merkel says.

She said the so-called "multikulti" concept - where people would "live side-by-side" happily - did not work, and immigrants needed to do more to integrate - including learning German.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

Having grown up in Canada and attended a multicultural school where Serbian was as likely to be heard in the hallways as English, I struggle to understand multiculturalism *not* working. To me, it doesn't mean people isolating themselves and refusing to participate in the host community, but rather retaining traditions and other elements unique to their home culture and sharing them with people from other backgrounds. I do think it's important for everyone to learn the language of the country they inhabit, but that doesn't mean they need to sacrifice their own language. I knew quite a lot of bilingual families when I was growing up, and others who attended Chinese school on Saturdays and otherwise spoke exclusively English.

This doesn't mean that it's acceptable for people to bring over and retain harmful traditions. However, many of these are covered by the expectation that immigrants conform to the law of the land in which they live, and I would rather see changes that prevent people of any cultural background from doing those that aren't covered (such as, for instance, favouring male children), than expect immigrants to integrate in order to prevent it.

It's not an all-or-nothing situation. Immigrants don't have to either wholly integrate into the host society or wholly remain apart, but can retain their own culture while functioning as part of the society in which they live.

[BlueChair]

Having grown up in Canada and attended a multicultural school where Serbian was as likely to be heard in the hallways as English, I struggle to understand multiculturalism *not* working. To me, it doesn't mean people isolating themselves and refusing to participate in the host community, but rather retaining traditions and other elements unique to their home culture and sharing them with people from other backgrounds. I do think it's important for everyone to learn the language of the country they inhabit, but that doesn't mean they need to sacrifice their own language. I knew quite a lot of bilingual families when I was growing up, and others who attended Chinese school on Saturdays and otherwise spoke exclusively English.

This doesn't mean that it's acceptable for people to bring over and retain harmful traditions. However, many of these are covered by the expectation that immigrants conform to the law of the land in which they live, and I would rather see changes that prevent people of any cultural background from doing those that aren't covered (such as, for instance, favouring male children), than expect immigrants to integrate in order to prevent it.

It's not an all-or-nothing situation. Immigrants don't have to either wholly integrate into the host society or wholly remain apart, but can retain their own culture while functioning as part of the society in which they live.

+1

I'm American but have been living in Scandinavia for the past few years. I was pretty confused by the attitudes towards immigrants and assimilation here when I first arrived, naively expecting a "liberal European" attitude in this area too. Not so. The word "multiculturalism" is beat to death over here, whereas back in North America I rarely heard it. In North America, we are multicultural because we always have been. It's not a big, threatening deal. Yes, we still have lots of race and religious and cultural discrimination issues we need to address but I've begun to think we're much more open about our issues and therefore proactive in dealing with them in a way that isn't "match up to the dominant culture or else!"

When I first arrived here I actually took a class on contemporary European social issues. I learned that Germany is one of the most difficult countries for immigrants in Europe as far as guest workers being able to become legal citizens. The immigration system was designed as a "come and work for us and then please go home when we've gotten what we need from you" kind of thing, not a "come to Germany and become a part of who we are and what we do" mentality. If you are being treated that way, why would you want to assimilate?

[latraviata]

I'm not going to be shy about saying it's about time someone recognized this. Unless medically necessary, it's genital mutilation, plain and simple.

Hear, hear!!

[27randomscribbles]

+1

I'm American but have been living in Scandinavia for the past few years. I was pretty confused by the attitudes towards immigrants and assimilation here when I first arrived, naively expecting a "liberal European" attitude in this area too. Not so. The word "multiculturalism" is beat to death over here, whereas back in North America I rarely heard it. In North America, we are multicultural because we always have been. It's not a big, threatening deal. Yes, we still have lots of race and religious and cultural discrimination issues we need to address but I've begun to think we're much more open about our issues and therefore proactive in dealing with them in a way that isn't "match up to the dominant culture or else!"

When I first arrived here I actually took a class on contemporary European social issues. I learned that Germany is one of the most difficult countries for immigrants in Europe as far as guest workers being able to become legal citizens. The immigration system was designed as a "come and work for us and then please go home when we've gotten what we need from you" kind of thing, not a "come to Germany and become a part of who we are and what we do" mentality. If you are being treated that way, why would you want to assimilate?

Agreed. I hope to move to Germany within the next year or so for an assistantship and what I like about the city I'd move to is that there ARE many immigrants. My husband is an immigrant (to the US) and is not white, and we'd both rather not live in a place where "multi-kulti" means everyone adhering to the same customs and speech of the main country (aka white). To me, it means people retaining important aspects/traditions/language of their home country while still being a part of the new society. That doesn't always require perfect German (or English in the US), nor does it require dressing and acting just like everyone else. As someone who has spent a lot of time in Germany and plans to continue to do so, as a future language teacher in the US, I hope that this attitude shifts eventually. I think it will, but will take a lot of time, just as it's still taking time here. I hear all the time in the US people complaining about those damn immigrants who don't speak English and should just go back home. It's not that fucking easy!

[Noon]

Instead of re-hashing the same unwinnable debate on circumcision, why don't we discuss whether or not such a ban is actually enforceable?

That, at least, is interesting.