Christians/Fake Jews...Why do people find them annoying?

[MamaJunebug]

maybeizfundie reports,

I only get riled when I'm accused of paganism for saying "Jesus" instead of "Yeshua", and other suchlike important issues.

:o :lol:

Oh, my dog, how hilarious!

[bbfreethinker]

As an atheist, I tend to think that all religions were "made up". It doesn't matter whether it was made up thousands of years of ago or yesterday (I guess I'm a non-traditionalist, too). As long as you're not hurting anyone, practice any religion you want, any way you want. Although if you use your right to free speech to post your views to the public, I also may use my right to free speech to disagree.

[forever ago]

I'm an atheist too... personally I find all of the different denominations of Christianity pretentious enough. Protestantism just split into 8,000 different things... why? Just go back to being Catholics and Protestants and make every non-Christian's life easier. Being a former Christian it just sounds so pedantic when I hear "I'm a Baptist" or "I'm a Methodist" or "I don't like labels." You're Christian. You're Protestant. Just say that, 'kay?

To me what's really annoying and pretentious are Neo-Pagans, particularly Wiccans. I can understand wanting to go back to older religious traditions and gods and centering your faith on the Earth. There's nothing wrong with that. What is a problem is that the various things they do are quite modern- like candles, tarot cards, etc. Also it just sounds like someone read a few too many fantasy novels. And I swear to Dawkins the next time I hear "Blessed Be" or other fake Irish/Scottish/Welsh shit...

Someone above said that Messianic Jews are Baptists in sheep's clothing. Being a former Baptist myself, I'd say that's about right! So much "Yeshua" and "ahava" (I have no clue if that's spelled properly, I never saw it written down) at one camp, and then my church did a fast. I'd never heard of Christians doing fasts before, let alone Southern Baptists (who are the foodies of Christendom). So much emphasis on the Old Testament, and just a few verses lifted, out-of-context, from the New Testament. Maybe it was the church I went to, but if I go back to Christianity I don't think I'm going back to that church.

[LynnKaboom]

I find them annoying and I'm not even Jewish.

It's like Americans who tell me they are Scottish because their great grandfather was or something. Those people tend to know nothing beyond Braveheart (which is a total piece of shite) and they've generally never even visited Scotland. If they have, they've visited a selection of chocolate boxy locations which now makes them the expert over real Scots who've lived here all our lives.

Cultural appropriation. And when you consider the history of the Jewish people, it's even worse. FaustianSlip and emmiedahl put it far better than I ever could.

My boyfriend is Scottish and recently went on vacation to Disney World. While he was there, he had someone ask him if he wore kilts all the time. His reaction? "LOLWUT?" Although he did decide to have some fun with the guy and tell him that yes, when he was in high school he was required to wear a kilt as part of his school uniform and that bagpipe class was mandatory. Also, he told the guy that the only thing Scottish people ever ate was shortbread and haggis.

He felt kind of bad about it later, but he also couldn't bring himself to care too much. And then he told me that next time, he's staying in Glasgow because Americans are dumb.

[Witsec6]

Someone above said that Messianic Jews are Baptists in sheep's clothing. Being a former Baptist myself, I'd say that's about right! So much "Yeshua" and "ahava" (I have no clue if that's spelled properly, I never saw it written down) at one camp, and then my church did a fast. I'd never heard of Christians doing fasts before, let alone Southern Baptists (who are the foodies of Christendom). So much emphasis on the Old Testament, and just a few verses lifted, out-of-context, from the New Testament. Maybe it was the church I went to, but if I go back to Christianity I don't think I'm going back to that church.

Sorry to be pretentious, but I'm Orthodox Christian (think Catholics before the schism) and we fast about 100 days out of the year. No meat, no dairy, no oil every Wednesday and Friday, no food at all from Saturday after supper until the end of liturgy on Sunday (usually around noon), and then partial fasts for 40 days of Lent and also Advent (before Christmas). Catholics fast too, although the practice of full fasts has changed since Vatican II. This has been done (officially) by Christians for about 1500 years.

Edit because it looked like we didn't eat at all for Lent or Advent, which is of course, ridiculous.

[forever ago]

Sorry to be pretentious, but I'm Orthodox Christian (think Catholics before the schism) and we fast about 100 days out of the year. No meat, no dairy, no oil every Wednesday and Friday, no food at all from Saturday after supper until the end of liturgy on Sunday (usually around noon), and then for 40 days of Lent and also Advent (before Christmas). Catholics fast too, although the practice of full fasts has changed since Vatican II. This has been done (officially) by Christians for about 1500 years.

Ah. Well, I've still never heard of Protestants fasting. (I think I have heard of Catholics fasting, though.)

[maybeizfundie]

I don't think most protestants have set fasting times during the year.

But many fast during lent. And many others that I know of set aside time for fasting as a spiritual discipline, just not as part of a liturgical year or whole-church event.

[gustava]

I only find them (Messianic Jews) annoying when they get legalistic, which seems to be an unfortunate tendency.

I have no problem with them practicing what they believe, or even "cherry picking". Given that Jesus was a Jew by both heritage and the religion he was born into, understanding Judaism as the context of his life and teachings seems a perfectly reasonable thing for Christians to do.

I only get riled when I'm accused of paganism for saying "Jesus" instead of "Yeshua", and other suchlike important issues. :?

Being fundie in many beliefs (but not pigeonhole-able) I can only guess why people might find me annoying. :lol:

I'd also like to think that Christians who cherry pick Judaism are doing so as a means to better understand Christianity, but I don't think that's the case. They're cherry-picking, not looking at the entire tree.

If you asked them if Jesus was really a Jew, they'd probably say he was born a Jew but died a Christian. After all, his last name is Christ!

[maybeizfundie]

lol. If people really say that they're beyond ignorant.

Christian means Christ *follower*. The term just isn't applicable to Jesus, being Christ/Messiah himself in Christian teaching.

[3 is enough]

My boyfriend is Scottish and recently went on vacation to Disney World. While he was there, he had someone ask him if he wore kilts all the time. His reaction? "LOLWUT?" Although he did decide to have some fun with the guy and tell him that yes, when he was in high school he was required to wear a kilt as part of his school uniform and that bagpipe class was mandatory. Also, he told the guy that the only thing Scottish people ever ate was shortbread and haggis.

He felt kind of bad about it later, but he also couldn't bring himself to care too much. And then he told me that next time, he's staying in Glasgow because Americans are dumb.

That's funny. I can relate. When I first moved to the US from Canada, A neighbour brought me a strawberry shortcake, and asked if we had strawberries in Canada (!!!???!!!). I politely thanked her, and assured her that yes, we did, but I refrained from any snarky remarks because she really was a lovely person. But the level of ignorance regarding other countries, even the big one to the north, is simply astounding.

Back to the topic, I applaud anyone who makes the effort to study another religion. Misinformation and fear are the cause of so many prejudices, which could be avoided if people simply made the effort to learn something about faiths other than their own ( or even properly study their own faith, for that matter). And I can see where learning about Judaism would help someone to better understand Jesus, because he was , after all, a Jew.

But cherry-picking bits and pieces of Jewish tradition and incorporating them into your Christian lifestyle is IMO, disrespectful. Understanding these traditions, and respecting and even admiring them is commendable, but appropriating them is not. When I see someone wearing a Star of David necklace, I assume they are Jewish, not fundamentalist Christian. When my brother was in 6th grade, his Catholic school field trip was a visit to a synagogue to learn about the Jewish faith. It was interesting, informative, and showed the children cooperation and respect between different religions. But the kids did not turn around and decide that they wanted to have a bar/bat mitzvah too.

[MamaJunebug]

I just thought of this:

I've been annoyed by Christians who focus on Judaistic rituals and symbols because they take the focus away from Jesus Christ, and turn it on to themselves.

[SunnyAndrsn]

Oh, good Lord. Who the hell does that? I was an Irish studies minor in college and did my graduate dissertation on the Troubles; the whole "plastic Paddy" phenomenon irritates me. You're not Irish. You're an American of Irish descent, if you're even that. And why in the world would you be yelling about the six counties or whatever in Scotland? Ugh.

And on the Jews for Jesus thing, some of the videos and things I've seen have smacked of the Jewish/Christian equivalent of blackface or something to me. There is a difference, IMHO, between having a deep interest in a religion or culture and wanting to study it and just fetishizing it. Judaism isn't just some commodity for Christians to use to dress up whatever rituals they have that they feel have gotten a little stale in an effort to win more converts or keep people in the church or whatever it is. And the fact of the matter is that this whole messianic movement really got started with groups like Jews for Jesus (which was started by a Seventh Day Adventist pastor, of all things), specifically as a way to try and convert Jews to Christianity. I'm all for ecumenism and learning about different faiths, but that's not what this is.

I think FaustianSlip has said exactly what I feel. I'm not Jewish, but I find the fake Jew thing appalling. As FS said, go ahead and study all you want, nothing wrong with that. The fake Jews like Lina and Taliban Tony have turned it into a fetish and it's creepy.

[Austin]

I find them annoying because it's the only subject they seem to be able to discuss.

A dear friend of mine for 30 plus years because a faux Jew/Messianic Jew/whatever several years ago. She was always a strong Christian believer, but after her husband died she met this man who was a fake Jew and became involved with him, so she became a fake Jew, too. She changed a lot after that and not in a good way. She married him about five years ago, and unfortunately, I've had to just let the friendship go to an extent, because I can't listen to it ad nauseum. I blame him, of course.

Basically, from what I can gather, now that she is a "Jew", she believes that all Jews must accept Jesus as their personal savior and that will bring Jesus back to reign on earth. She now believes that "Jewish souls" are more valuable to God than "gentile souls" (I know this because I asked her that specific question). She and her husband and their whole group are on a mission to bring the gospel to Jews. They go to the Holy Lands three or four times a year on such missions.

She is a woman of Norwegian descent raised in Iowa as a Methodist, so I am stumped by all of this. And I miss her.

[Black Aliss]

*OT

Fundiefan, I'm a Norske girl, too! I make mean lefse, meatballs and krumkake. :) And I am very proud to tell you that my 4 year old uses the term "uff-da" of her own free will, and correctly. :D I don't speak the language, unfortunately, because that part wasn't continued in my family. But I do self-identify as Norwegian, though it is of descent only. However, actual Norwegians I know are never offended by that, and just glad to meet another Norske. /OT

Now your fundamentalist Norske-observant dutch girl would declare that you can't be Norske-observant if you don't eat lutefisk. :D

[emmiedahl]

I would like to add that while I have a certain amount of hostility toward faux Jews, I do not extend that to legit Messianic Jews. I am friends with a family that is legit Jewish and Orthodox, but somehow accepted Christ as their Messiah. That's completely their business.

And honestly? Christians have a right to appropriate my religion. But if they do so in a way that I find disrespectful, I have a right to snark. I was raised with a Christian father and numerous Christian relatives even on the Jewish side, so I don't always do Judaism right. But I am a Jew by the definition and I am not trying this on just to see how it fits.

[Sweetpea1]

Now your fundamentalist Norske-observant dutch girl would declare that you can't be Norske-observant if you don't eat lutefisk. :D

I won't be within 75 feet of lutefisk. Guess I'm an epic fail in the norske heritage society.

[xDreamerx]

Here's what I still don't get. What's the difference between these people and the bits of Judaism that have been incoporated into mainstream Christainity? I mean the ones who have a political agenda or think Jews need to be coverted or saved or whatever else--the reasons there are self evident. But what about the rest?

[pomology]

I'd also like to think that Christians who cherry pick Judaism are doing so as a means to better understand Christianity, but I don't think that's the case. They're cherry-picking, not looking at the entire tree.

If you asked them if Jesus was really a Jew, they'd probably say he was born a Jew but died a Christian. After all, his last name is Christ!

If Christians who cherry-pick Judaism were doing it to try to understand Christianity, they wouldn't appropriate traditions that evolved as part of Rabbinic Judaism (i.e. post-Temple Judaism). The Judaism that is practiced today is not at all like the Judaism that Jesus would have practiced. As defrauded said, if these people were really trying to understand Jesus' roots, their practice would resemble Karaite Judaism, not Rabbinic Judaism. But it doesn't.

[defrauding]

Very interesting links, defrauding. I didn't realize how much FFOZ was into converting the Jews. That is really obnoxious. And they have a mission in Israel. Great, just what a religiously conflicted area needs. I was also wondering about the connection between British Israelitism (is that what you meant by Hebrew Israelitism) and the modern Messianic Jews. Whether there is or there isn't a direct connection, I do agree about the potential to tip to anti-Semitism.

Hebrew Israelism is an American movement started by black Christians in the 1800s. It's very similar to British Israelism, though, because people in both movements believe that they are the true descendants of Israel.

Hebrew Israelites also believe that Jesus will kill or enslave the whites and Jews when he returns. As you can imagine, that makes affiliating with the Messianic movement a bit difficult. It wouldn't surprise me, however, if both movements were influenced by some of the same writers.

[aggythenostic]

I have no problem with them practicing what they believe, or even "cherry picking". Given that Jesus was a Jew by both heritage and the religion he was born into, understanding Judaism as the context of his life and teachings seems a perfectly reasonable thing for Christians to do.

Uh, no. It isn't reasonable at all, because it isn't about studying and understanding. It's about declaring yourself as not only a Jew, but a better and wiser Jew! It's like this: Jesus as son of God makes no sense in Judaism, and to start there is really both stupid and offensive. That whole Yahweh thing makes me want to slap these idiots. There's plenty of Fundie crap out there! Do you have to take MY perfectly reasonable faith too?

[Patsy]

I'm not annoyed by Jews who convert and keep cultural practice, I'm not annoyed by anyone who decides not to eat pork, and I'm an atheist who thinks pretty much all religions are culturally built (if you didn't get it from your parents you're still talking to people at church and online) and 'picked and chosen'. I still find self-absorbed fakey Jewishness VERY infuriating.

I also put a lot of their behaviors in the same category as people who put on affectations and pretend to observe, say, Native American spiritual practices. Yeah, buddy, having thirty dreamcatchers totally makes you a Ute shaman. Whatever. I don't see most of them following these mitzvot as a spiritual thing so much as as affectations, and that's offensive to me. People died, many in pretty horrible ways, to keep these traditions alive. They're not just there so you can slap a Jesus fish on a tallit or something. The fact that these people are claiming that they're Jewish when they're clearly not also bothers me, though it's not as offensive as what, say, Lina kept talking about, namely converting within a normative Jewish community but continuing to follow and recruit for "Yeshua."

Ultimately, it's cultural appropriation. If you want to be Jewish, be Jewish. If you're fascinated by Jewish history and want to study it, by all means, do that. But don't go prancing around in a yarmulke with a Jesus fish on it, carrying on about "Yeshuah" and your love affair with "Yah" and expect me (or any other Jewish people) to take you seriously.

It's like Americans who tell me they are Scottish because their great grandfather was or something. Those people tend to know nothing beyond Braveheart (which is a total piece of shite) and they've generally never even visited Scotland. If they have, they've visited a selection of chocolate boxy locations which now makes them the expert over real Scots who've lived here all our lives.

Cultural appropriation. And when you consider the history of the Jewish people, it's even worse. FaustianSlip and emmiedahl put it far better than I ever could.

It's not even the lack of consideration and offense caused by cultural appropriation for me - I just find it annoying. Stop trying to pretend you're special by making up bullshit credentials - "I'm Irish!" meaning "One of my great-great-grandparents came from Ireland" or "I'm Jewish!" meaning "Dad told me to wear a headscarf now". Even if you feel it's religiously enriching for you to start acting like a fake Jew, you don't need to start using bullshit Yiddish. There's an English word for 'shabbat', it's 'sabbath'. Lina's 'shabbat', 'Yeshua' shit annoyed me to no end. You speak English. Stop trying to be such a unique snowflake.

It also often shows a huge amount of ignorance, which is particularly annoying on top of the fakey enlightened scholarly bullshit that seems to sometimes come along with it. Like some Christians who like meeting Jews because any Jew of today must live and believe similarly to the Jews of the OT, right? Never mind the fact that thousands of years have passed, there have been new religious texts and traditions put into place, and since then some have been discarded or interpreted differently by different groups.

[FaustianSlip]

Uh, no. It isn't reasonable at all, because it isn't about studying and understanding. It's about declaring yourself as not only a Jew, but a better and wiser Jew! It's like this: Jesus as son of God makes no sense in Judaism, and to start there is really both stupid and offensive.

This. A lot of Messianic types refer to themselves as "completed Jews." Really? Frigging really? That's outrageously offensive, and it's an attitude that permeates a lot of the movement, a lot of which is Baptists in tallitot, as someone else mentioned. It's like playacting. Sure, you can do it- it's not like I'm going to go all Mea Shearim on someone and rip their Jesus fish yarmulke off their head, but don't act shocked and surprised when people are offended, pissed off or moved to snark you mercilessly. The points others have made about the whole, "Well, we want to learn about Jesus!" routine being largely without merit are right on, too. Modern, rabbinic Judaism and Judaism as it was practiced in Jesus' time, while bearing some similarities, are extremely different in a number of really significant ways. The argument that they're following the "whole Torah" that Jesus followed doesn't make sense at all, given that a lot of the Talmudic stuff they cite was put down centuries after Jesus died. The logic just doesn't wash, which is why I think it has a lot more to do with novelty and fetishism than it does with really wanting to do Judaism as it was done in days of yore, or whatever.

That whole Yahweh thing makes me want to slap these idiots. There's plenty of Fundie crap out there! Do you have to take MY perfectly reasonable faith too?

Also this. I chose Judaism for myself precisely because it tends to lack the strident, "We must do this, or everyone goes to hell!" kind of thing that Christianity always seemed to represent to me. Judaism traditionally encourages questioning and debate. This is not to say that there aren't absurdly legalistic groups within Judaism, which brings me to my next issue: we have our own freaking fundies who are plenty wacko enough and causing enough problems as it is. We don't need to import any more from the fringes of Christianity, thanks.

[meda]

I think why it annoys me is because I view it as cultural rather than religious appropriation. There is a vast difference between converting to Judaism as a religious practice, and indiscriminately adopting various cultural symbols and rituals from different sects of Judaism like Lina. People have died in the millions because of and for those cultural practices, and a teenage girl and her uneducated little friends playing dress up would seriously piss me off if my cultural and ethnic identity included relatives who experienced the pogroms or the Holocaust.

I am mostly Indian, and I identify as such because of my mother's family and their strong commitment to their tribal identity. My grandparents grew up on the reservation, were forced to attend Catholic run Indian boarding schools where they were beaten for not speaking English or acting other than white. They and the rest of my family faced discrimination because of who they were. The little of the language that I speak, and the cultural traditions and stories that were passed down to me were gifts from my grandmother, because she held on to them and remembered them despite abuse and overwhelming pressure to assimilate and forget that identity. I realize it is not a direct comparison, but I do understand some of the anger at the faux Jews, since I feel nothing but rage when I see some hippy white guy trying make a buck off of "Native American Spiritual Practices" . Asshole, you are not a shaman, and someday my ancestors will have your ass in a sling. :angry-teeth:

[pomology]

Also this. I chose Judaism for myself precisely because it tends to lack the strident, "We must do this, or everyone goes to hell!" kind of thing that Christianity always seemed to represent to me. Judaism traditionally encourages questioning and debate. This is not to say that there aren't absurdly legalistic groups within Judaism, which brings me to my next issue: we have our own freaking fundies who are plenty wacko enough and causing enough problems as it is. We don't need to import any more from the fringes of Christianity, thanks.

:clap:

Well, other than the fact that Judaism chose me, instead of me choosing it, I completely agree. I love that Judaism traditionally encourages questioning and we already have our own fundies, we don't need more.

[Sicily]

Christianity cherry-picks per se.  So do all religious groups, really. It isn't about that for me. 

I guess for me it's just about resenting the fakery instinctively. Perhaps because I was raised Jewish, even though I rejected that. Maybe even *because* I rejected that, in some ways.

It's not just that it's appropriative. Christianity is built on the shoulders of Judaism to begin with. If anything, they're being more consistent by following Old Testament laws, not less.

I don't know. It feels like an insult, somehow, but it's hard to put my finger on.