Oatmeal=punishment for lying? A letter to Lori's kids

[dianapavelovna]

The oatmeal diet is a common "attachment therapy" tactic for so-called RAD children. As is accusing the child of constant lying. Are any of these kids adopted?

Yes, they have a little girl adopted from Africa.

[SealFan1963]

My mom was just the opposite, she stopped drinking milk, because if she drank it there wasn't as much for us. I know we were on food stamps occasionally when I was a child, but I don't remember ever being hungry.

I do remember her buying those little tins of oysters once in while as a treat to herself, but she was welcome to those - yuck.

[LadyBlue]

The sit time one?

Here:

http://www.vitafamiliae.com/?p=1567

Almost more disturbing than that post is all the comments about how great an idea it is and planning on using her idea on their own kids

[Witsec7]

Ah she is a prize, keeping her “implement of correction" slightly visible to the children while in church. :roll:

[luckystone]

This is the first time I've read this blog. Why is there a whole segment about how much her kids poo? Does this woman need more sleep or more life? Poor kids. Very weird.

I'm also a bit concerned about where she said beach/pool visits are too stressful because they have to many kids to watch. So they don't take them at all, and the kids demanded it, so they said it's okay as long as the older four learn to swim this year?! With kids that young, surely even if they take a few months' worth of swimming lessons, it's still good practice to closely watch them, so surely two parents and seven kids is still a risky and/or stressful ratio.

[alba]

The sit time one?

Here:

http://www.vitafamiliae.com/?p=1567

I might have to train her to “cry quietly.†(It can be done, by the way.)

This is so sad. To paraphrase the Doctor, children cry quietly when they're so distressed they can't keep it in but they know no one is going to listen to them. She's teaching her kids to expect their needs won't be met.

My mother used to buy things for herself to eat that were too expensive to also buy for us kids and we weren't allowed to touch them. Or she would hide and eat whatever it was. That kind of stuff really bothers me. It's one more way to reinforce the "you're not worth much" dynamic that seems to be so important in fundie families.

Was your mother Miss Trunchbull? "Much too good for children!"

[jesssnerch]

The texture of oatmeal actually makes me wretch. I can't swallow it without gagging. Every few years, I try it to see if I still have that reaction and it is still there. The same w/ yogurt- I really want to like it, but I can't. My kids like yogurt, though.

[lilwriter85]

":2fl4cuv3]Well, if it was cooked oatmeal -- there are some kids who really like bland mushy food. They could just lie for a meal.

I know a couple of kids like that don't mind eating plain oatmeal. My 8 year old nephew likes it and he once brought oatmeal packets when he stayed with me for a weekend.

[Deleted03]

Food should not be used as a tool for punishment or reward, unless you want to open up a whole can of dysfunction!worms. And, unfortunately, I have a feeling that food issues won't be the only issues LL's kids are going to have to deal with when they grow up.

considering how she ate chocolate all day to deal with her kids, I'm assuming the can of worms is wide open for her... O_o

[Didi]

The impression I got was that it was a meal replacement or a teaching tool - like this yucky bland oatmeal is what lying is like - gross and unappealing?

i just don't see the abuse here.

but, then again, i am from the "spank them double for lying" childhood - a peer of mine had a HUGE paddle hanging up in his kitchen with a sign telling them how many swats for each offense...lying was 10, and he told me if you lied more than once it doubled... so oatmeal doesn't seem like a big deal to me?

would it be abuse if their punishment for lying was plain bread and water as a meal replacement? Or if they made them drink a tablespoon of lemon juice or something? unappealing, but not dangerous...

[Guest Anonymous]

The impression I got was that it was a meal replacement or a teaching tool - like this yucky bland oatmeal is what lying is like - gross and unappealing?

i just don't see the abuse here.

but, then again, i am from the "spank them double for lying" childhood - a peer of mine had a HUGE paddle hanging up in his kitchen with a sign telling them how many swats for each offense...lying was 10, and he told me if you lied more than once it doubled... so oatmeal doesn't seem like a big deal to me?

would it be abuse if their punishment for lying was plain bread and water as a meal replacement? Or if they made them drink a tablespoon of lemon juice or something? unappealing, but not dangerous...

Using food as punishment tends to fuck up people's relationship with food. That's the problem.

[genericJname]

Yeah - food as punishment is a terrible idea.

[Koala]

The impression I got was that it was a meal replacement or a teaching tool - like this yucky bland oatmeal is what lying is like - gross and unappealing?

i just don't see the abuse here.

but, then again, i am from the "spank them double for lying" childhood - a peer of mine had a HUGE paddle hanging up in his kitchen with a sign telling them how many swats for each offense...lying was 10, and he told me if you lied more than once it doubled... so oatmeal doesn't seem like a big deal to me?

would it be abuse if their punishment for lying was plain bread and water as a meal replacement? Or if they made them drink a tablespoon of lemon juice or something? unappealing, but not dangerous...

You don't force food on another human being as a form of "punishment". You don't hit a child with a "implement of correction" as a form of "punishment". Neither are effective and both violate the child's autonomy.

The fact that you had a friend that was hit with a board up to 20 times for lying is nothing short of heartbreaking to me. It does not, however, excuse "lesser forms" of abuse.

[formergothardite]

The impression I got was that it was a meal replacement or a teaching tool - like this yucky bland oatmeal is what lying is like - gross and unappealing?

i just don't see the abuse here.

but, then again, i am from the "spank them double for lying" childhood - a peer of mine had a HUGE paddle hanging up in his kitchen with a sign telling them how many swats for each offense...lying was 10, and he told me if you lied more than once it doubled... so oatmeal doesn't seem like a big deal to me?

would it be abuse if their punishment for lying was plain bread and water as a meal replacement? Or if they made them drink a tablespoon of lemon juice or something? unappealing, but not dangerous...

Yes, and it is also crappy parenting.

[Hane]

The fact that you had a friend that was hit with a board up to 20 times for lying is nothing short of heartbreaking to me. It does not, however, excuse "lesser forms" of abuse.

So true. Many, many people of my generation grew up with very severe corporal punishment--so, when they raised their own kids, they thought they were being downright humane when they "just" spanked their kids with their hand.

Those of us who grew up with physical and emotional abuse have a hard time learning how to parent appropriately. We can go overboard either of two ways: "just" spanking and being "strict" (abusive and controlling, but not as dangerously so as our parents were) or being full-tilt permissive (because we're so afraid of "hurting our kids' feelings" and making them hate us).

[Conuly]

The impression I got was that it was a meal replacement or a teaching tool - like this yucky bland oatmeal is what lying is like - gross and unappealing?

i just don't see the abuse here.

Something can be crappy parenting without actually being abusive.

The trouble here is not so much the oatmeal thing (quite aside from the fact that, yeah, it's a good way to give your kid serious food issues) in and of itself but the fact that it highlights that their ONLY parenting technique is to punish, punish, punish.

[holothuroidea]

Children should not be afraid to tell their parents the truth (I'm not talking about the stories that young children tell as a part of their normal development, but lying to avoid punishment or other consequences). If a child is not comfortable enough be truthful with you, you have failed them.

So, if anyone deserves a punishment it is the parents. They should be eating the gross oatmeal because they are the ones who have failed. The child is merely protecting herself the only way she knows how, and very understandably so.

[Conuly]

Children should not be afraid to tell their parents the truth (I'm not talking about the stories that young children tell as a part of their normal development, but lying to avoid punishment or other consequences). If a child is not comfortable enough be truthful with you, you have failed them.

Sometimes children who have never been abused or mistreated in any way will lie to avoid punishment. MOST people will impose SOME form of consequences for misbehavior such as, say, hitting your sibling or sneaking and eating a big bite of birthday cake before the party. (Time-out and no birthday cake at the party, were it me. Possibly "you have to pay for a new cake out of your allowance".)

The punishment might be as mild as a sigh and a "I'm very disappointed in you", but some children, even knowing this, will lie to avoid it.

[holothuroidea]

Sometimes children who have never been abused or mistreated in any way will lie to avoid punishment. MOST people will impose SOME form of consequences for misbehavior such as, say, hitting your sibling or sneaking and eating a big bite of birthday cake before the party. (Time-out and no birthday cake at the party, were it me. Possibly "you have to pay for a new cake out of your allowance".)

The punishment might be as mild as a sigh and a "I'm very disappointed in you", but some children, even knowing this, will lie to avoid it.

We are talking about people who purposefully make their children afraid of them and then punish them for their fear.

If (when, I'm sure) my child lies to me because they are afraid I will be annoyed or disappointed I still wouldn't think they were in any way misbehaving or deserving of punishment. It's a reasonable thing for a child to want to avoid, and from their point of view a reasonable way to avoid it. I'll have to deal with the lying, of course, in a way that is age appropriate, but I can assure you that it wont involve punishments and it certainly wont involve forcing them to consume food against their will.

[LilMissMetaphor]

I'm also a bit concerned about where she said beach/pool visits are too stressful because they have to many kids to watch. So they don't take them at all, and the kids demanded it, so they said it's okay as long as the older four learn to swim this year?! With kids that young, surely even if they take a few months' worth of swimming lessons, it's still good practice to closely watch them, so surely two parents and seven kids is still a risky and/or stressful ratio.

LL needs to read Kendal's (extensive but contradictory) training manual. :D

Tip #1: Get organized! Have a pool bag ready with toys, sunscreen, gobbles {as my sweet 2 year old calls them!} and any other pool necessity. Have that packed the night before and go ahead and put the bag in your car.

Tip #2: Don't take your entire stash of pool toys. That just means more you have to find when it's time to pack up and leave. Take maybe a handful of fun toys and rotate through them each trip. Also, with a sharpie write your name on each toy. We all seem to have the same pool toys, so this helps to know exactly what is yours.

Tip #3: Sit down before your first pool trip and go over rules and boundaries. I sat my girls down and told them exactly what behavior I expected of them and what their rules would be. I also told them what the consequences would be if they did not follow them. I made sure that they each knew exactly what was expected of them {i.e., where they could swim in the pool, attitudes while at the pool}. This is a huge one for us. It is absolutely imperative that my children obey me at all times when we are at the pool. This is the only way that we manage to have such a fun time. If your children struggle to follow the boundaries at home, this is not the time to try and teach them! Work on this at home before you even attempt a trip to the pool!

Tip #4: Sunscreen at home. We do all of the sun protection at home, and even before bathing suits are put on. It is so much easier to put the sunscreen on while you are still in the comfort of your own home when the children are less likely to be squirming around trying to get into that pool.

Tip #5: We pack a snack and our lunch. This allows us not to spend the money at the pool for overpriced food. All 4 kids eat snack and lunch at the same time. I have decided ahead of time when we will eat snack and when we will eat lunch. I do not allow 2 children to eat snack while the other 2 are swimming. There has to be order when you have a bigger family. Because of this rule, I do not have children constantly whining about food and asking when they can eat their snack or their lunch. They know exactly when those times are. I usually tell them ahead of time when we will be eating lunch that day at the pool. It can sometimes vary due to the time we are arriving.

Tip #6: Puddle Jumpers! These are a must! I have 2 that can not swim independently yet. These allow for the girls to have some freedom and it allows me to have some peace of mind if I need to take my eyes off of them for more than 2 seconds. Anytime they would like to take them off, they have to ask me. And they are well aware that there may be many times they must keep them on. Going over that rule ahead of time allows for zero whining when I say no.

Tip #7: Take the children to the bathroom when you first arrive. For some reason, once those little legs hit that water it never fails that at least one of them needs to go to the bathroom. I'd much rather take them first thing as opposed to taking them once they have wet, sticky bodies.

Tip #8: Have a plan in place for the departure. Plan the time you will be leaving, and go ahead and tell the children when that will be so there will be no surprises. I usually get out of the water about 5 mins ahead of them so I can start packing up. When I call the girls out, we are ready head home. I bring a stroller with me so I don't have to carry little man, and also so I can use it to help carry some of my pool items.

We pack dry clothes for the ride home. We are blessed to have a very nice clean women's locker room where we can get everyone dressed before we leave.

Tip #9: If taking your 4 plus children to the pool sounds more overwhelming than enjoyable, ask a friend to join you. Having the support of another mom and another set of eyes may just give you enough confidence to attempt the trip alone next time.

Tip #10: Have fun!! Even if the pool trip doesn't go as planned, that's ok! Remember to have fun and even laugh at the chaos.

So even after she regiments everything to the nth degree they are supposed to laugh at the chaos? Which is it?

[ppmath]

Actually, I don't think much of Kendal, but I don't have a problem with anything on her pool list. Most daycares or preschools that go to the pool would follow much the same rules, and with all her kids, it's like taking a school group to the pool.

[LilMissMetaphor]

Why is LL starting Finn on solid food already? Isn't he only three months old? What's the rush?

[AnnieC 305]

Tip #1: Get organized! Have a pool bag ready with toys, sunscreen, gobbles {as my sweet 2 year old calls them!} and any other pool necessity. Have that packed the night before and go ahead and put the bag in your car.

Tip #2: Don't take your entire stash of pool toys. That just means more you have to find when it's time to pack up and leave. Take maybe a handful of fun toys and rotate through them each trip. Also, with a sharpie write your name on each toy. We all seem to have the same pool toys, so this helps to know exactly what is yours.

Tip #3: Sit down before your first pool trip and go over rules and boundaries. I sat my girls down and told them exactly what behavior I expected of them and what their rules would be. I also told them what the consequences would be if they did not follow them. I made sure that they each knew exactly what was expected of them {i.e., where they could swim in the pool, attitudes while at the pool}. This is a huge one for us. It is absolutely imperative that my children obey me at all times when we are at the pool. This is the only way that we manage to have such a fun time. If your children struggle to follow the boundaries at home, this is not the time to try and teach them! Work on this at home before you even attempt a trip to the pool!

Tip #4: Sunscreen at home. We do all of the sun protection at home, and even before bathing suits are put on. It is so much easier to put the sunscreen on while you are still in the comfort of your own home when the children are less likely to be squirming around trying to get into that pool.

Tip #5: We pack a snack and our lunch. This allows us not to spend the money at the pool for overpriced food. All 4 kids eat snack and lunch at the same time. I have decided ahead of time when we will eat snack and when we will eat lunch. I do not allow 2 children to eat snack while the other 2 are swimming. There has to be order when you have a bigger family. Because of this rule, I do not have children constantly whining about food and asking when they can eat their snack or their lunch. They know exactly when those times are. I usually tell them ahead of time when we will be eating lunch that day at the pool. It can sometimes vary due to the time we are arriving.

Tip #6: Puddle Jumpers! These are a must! I have 2 that can not swim independently yet. These allow for the girls to have some freedom and it allows me to have some peace of mind if I need to take my eyes off of them for more than 2 seconds. Anytime they would like to take them off, they have to ask me. And they are well aware that there may be many times they must keep them on. Going over that rule ahead of time allows for zero whining when I say no.

Tip #7: Take the children to the bathroom when you first arrive. For some reason, once those little legs hit that water it never fails that at least one of them needs to go to the bathroom. I'd much rather take them first thing as opposed to taking them once they have wet, sticky bodies.

Tip #8: Have a plan in place for the departure. Plan the time you will be leaving, and go ahead and tell the children when that will be so there will be no surprises. I usually get out of the water about 5 mins ahead of them so I can start packing up. When I call the girls out, we are ready head home. I bring a stroller with me so I don't have to carry little man, and also so I can use it to help carry some of my pool items.

We pack dry clothes for the ride home. We are blessed to have a very nice clean women's locker room where we can get everyone dressed before we leave.

Tip #9: If taking your 4 plus children to the pool sounds more overwhelming than enjoyable, ask a friend to join you. Having the support of another mom and another set of eyes may just give you enough confidence to attempt the trip alone next time.

Tip #10: Have fun!! Even if the pool trip doesn't go as planned, that's ok! Remember to have fun and even laugh at the chaos.

Heck, I get this anal about trips even though it's just me and the husband. We've found it's all just more comfortable, smooth and healthy when we do.

In fact, while I truly hate to admit that I agree with one of these wackjobs I'm going to save this list for the future.

That said, using food for a punishment is a big evil in my world. My "sister" and I are still trying to get over the issues we have with food thanks to our mothers using food access in a very negative way.

[skankbiscuit]

I kind of feel terrible saying this, but when I visit her blog, I am always taken by surprise at how un-cute her bio kids are. I do not even think her baby is cute at all.

[LilMissMetaphor]

You realize you are talking about someone's face, right?

Sorry, snark @ emmiedahl from the Nienie thread. Couldn't resist.

LL is pretty enough IMO when she's not pulling faces, but Andrew is not good-looking and all of their bio kids have a really unfortunate gene combination/distribution going on.