When The Comments Are Worse Then The Article

[debrand]

dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/03/03/from-cornerstone-to-stepping-stone-the-mainstream-christian-view-of-marriage/

Reading the comments that follow some fundie or conservative Christians blog articles are interesting. Often the comments are far more offensive then the article itself.

TFH says:

March 3, 2012 at 2:42 pm

As I have said before, the divorce rate of a society depends on one thing predominantly :

Will the woman’s living standard go down if she divorces?

If yes, that society has a low divorce rate.

If no (via rigged laws), then that society has a high divorce rate.

All the rationalizations of not being ‘haaaapy’ or ‘growing apart’ or ‘needing to find herself’ are merely excuses to cosmetically cover the financial decision. In societies where a woman cannot secure assets through easy divorce, all those excuses are miraculously absent.

This lead to the other point I often bring up :

Democracy and Marriage cannot coexist for more than a century or so. It will not be obvious to people who have an adult lifespan shorter than that, but Democracy inevitably leads to women voting for laws to be rigged more and more in their favor, until, after a delayed reaction, men just refuse to play along. Women cannot stop themselves from ruthlessly revising the rules in their favor, so Democracy simply destroys the institution of marriage.

Conservatives think they are big on both Democracy and marriage. In reality, they have to pick one (they will usually pick Democracy since they don’t have the courage to address what is really destroying marriage).

First, why would a man want to remain in a marriage with a woman who is miserable? That's crazy. And second, is this poster saying that democracy that included women is bad?

TFH says:

March 3, 2012 at 3:08 pm

I should add that in societies where men retain child custody, property rights, and can toss out his wife relatively easily, divorce is still pretty rare.

Men tend to be responsible adults that way. Perhaps a tiny bit of leeway in terms of having mistresses or going to prostitutes is a feature of such societies in order to keep things glued together, but that is a vastly lower social cost than what things are like in mature democracies

What? :doh: Cheating on your wife with prostitutes, maybe bringing home a disease or creating an unwanted illegitimate child is all good to TFH. A woman having the freedom to leave cheating spouse is bad. um....no

TFH says:

March 3, 2012 at 5:02 pm

Agreed. When you give cash prizes, you incentivize bad behavior.

Yes, but I would add that men commonly don’t toss out their wives even in countries where they could do so easily and without financial cost. So women succumb to these perverse incentives much more easily than men (in marriage/family matters, at least).

I know so many people in India with unhappy marriages. The same people in the US would divorce, but in India, even one of my aunts told my Mom “Leaving would be worse than stayingâ€.

So she stays. And this aunt is a US citizen, but lives in India.

And in India, 90%+ of children, even the poorest slum dwellers, grow up with both biological parents. The US was like that 50 years ago, before, you know, divorce was made financially attractive for women.

The financial incentives are virtually 100% of the reason some societies have a 5-10% divorce rate, and others have a 45% divorce rate.

SC says:

March 3, 2012 at 5:48 pm

In my opinion, marriage never stood a chance in our current culture.

First, life is too easy. I think it’s telling that feminism took root when life got easy enough via industrialization for them to avoid manual labor. They didn’t think about going this far at most (not all) other points in history.

Second, the welfare state replaces husbands and fathers, at least financially. Add to that the no-fault divorce laws, and the amount they have to gain in divorce. It’s like society seduces them into divorce.

Third, the “women need to be protected†brand of chivalry that persists overinflates their sense of value. Marriage based on happiness seems to be a somewhat logical conclusion. I’m not blaming men for this necessarily but it is time to toss chivalry into the trash.

I’ve always wondered how we got to a point where men ask women to marry. Logically it never made sense to me. Men take on extra financial responsibilities and risk getting reamed in divorce court, yet we court them, woo them with rings and get down on our knees for that “privelege�Men never required women for survival, only procreation, however women required men for survival until VERY recently. Logically, they should have been asking the men to marry. How did we get sold this bill of goods?

Methinks prostitution was only made illegal so that long-term prostitution (marriage) could flourish.

SC says:

March 4, 2012 at 7:45 am

@Höllenhund

I 100% agree with you about morality being based on economic reality. A lot of our past customs related to courtship, marriage and family used to be based on this. For example:

1. The family of the bride used to pay for marriages because, in my opinion, the economic reality was that the groom was taking on a financial liability (and removing the bride’s father’s liability) by getting married. I also assume that this is the origin of the dowry.

2. Historical rules surrounding premarital sex such as stoning, shotgun weddings, etc were created as a deterrent because, without a support system in place such as marriage or welfare, a lot of women and children would have been in abject poverty.

3. Bastards were shunned. I think this was a two-parter. First, the marriageability of a woman was reduced if she had a child by someone else. Second, I wonder if older, wiser generations understood at some level that fatherless children grow up with more mental/emotional issues. Seeing some of these kids nowadays and knowing the statistical reality, I would do everything I could to keep my children from marrying a person who grew up without a father.

Sadly, women shot themselves in the foot and threw out the baby with the bathwater, even throwing out good rules under the presumption that they were to control women when they were actually to keep society stable. These days you simply hear them lament the stable results of the rules without understanding that stability comes through sacrifice, discipline and understanding.

SC says:

March 4, 2012 at 9:03 am

Back to the topic of haaappppiness and marriage. I don’t know if any of you remember this but, about 10 or 15 years ago, people used to criticize single mothers for the damage that frivolous divorce and fatherless homes were doing to their children. Women’s response was “the child is happy if the mother is happyâ€. Pure narcissism.

So I’m not surprised that women turn their back on religious marital values or that they so devalue their husbands. If they can justify the pain they bring onto their own children this way then nothing else will be holy to them either.

[debrand]

7man says:

March 4, 2012 at 4:09 pm

@milchama

“Where do we find good Christian women to marry?â€

Wrong question! First learn how to be a leader and strong in your faith without bowing to what women say is Christian. Then find a woman that can be led, whether she is Christian or not.

(You will likely find that it is easier to find a non-Christian woman that meets this criteria. If Christian women are in fact “better,†you must have a much HIGHER standard for them.)

[Peas n carrots]

The common bitter divorced guy. When DH was applying for his visa, we frequented a US immigration forum, with some of the most offensive, pig headed men ever to troll the Internet were there working on papers for their mail order brides. Almost without fail these men were marrying very young Filipino women, who they thought were the paragon of womanhood compared to the feminist, money grubbing evil American women.

Almost all those men too, were middle aged and divorced at least once. And what they wrote about American women is exactly what you pulled from the comments on that blog.

[debrand]

The common bitter divorced guy. When DH was applying for his visa, we frequented a US immigration forum, with some of the most offensive, pig headed men ever to troll the Internet were there working on papers for their mail order brides. Almost without fail these men were marrying very young Filipino women, who they thought were the paragon of womanhood compared to the feminist, money grubbing evil American women.

Almost all those men too, were middle aged and divorced at least once. And what they wrote about American women is exactly what you pulled from the comments on that blog.

Anyone who doesn't care if their spouse is happy or miserable doesn't see that person as a human being. That type of selfishness disturbs me.

Once my husband jokingly said that I would kill him if he cheated. I told him, no, if he wanted to leave, I would let him go. I have far too much self respect to force someone to remain married to me. Why would anyone want to continue living with someone that doesn't want them anymore?

[AtroposHeart]

The common bitter divorced guy. When DH was applying for his visa, we frequented a US immigration forum, with some of the most offensive, pig headed men ever to troll the Internet were there working on papers for their mail order brides. Almost without fail these men were marrying very young Filipino women, who they thought were the paragon of womanhood compared to the feminist, money grubbing evil American women.

Almost all those men too, were middle aged and divorced at least once. And what they wrote about American women is exactly what you pulled from the comments on that blog.

This had to do a lot with the gutting of the VAWA recently, to remove protection to immigrant woman. The general public thinks it was about stopping them 'dirty Mexicans' than using our tax dollars(Note: I do not belive such horribly racist things, I am just repeating what I've heard) Mail Order Bride groups lobbied to stop that, because they do not want mail order brides to report their domestic abuse to the police.

This way the husband can keep her under control by threating her with deportation.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

This had to do a lot with the gutting of the VAWA recently, to remove protection to immigrant woman. The general public thinks it was about stopping them 'dirty Mexicans' than using our tax dollars(Note: I do not belive such horribly racist things, I am just repeating what I've heard) Mail Order Bride groups lobbied to stop that, because they do not want mail order brides to report their domestic abuse to the police.

This way the husband can keep her under control by threating her with deportation.

I was just about to bring this up. There is a great feminist podcast, "Opinionated" (with Amanda Marcotte), on which they just discussed the unholy alliance between the mail order bride industry and Concerned Women for America to gut protections for abused women.

[debrand]

This had to do a lot with the gutting of the VAWA recently, to remove protection to immigrant woman. The general public thinks it was about stopping them 'dirty Mexicans' than using our tax dollars(Note: I do not belive such horribly racist things, I am just repeating what I've heard) Mail Order Bride groups lobbied to stop that, because they do not want mail order brides to report their domestic abuse to the police.

This way the husband can keep her under control by threating her with deportation.

Having to deal with women who aren't forced to remain in abusive situation scares these types of people. Obviously, they can't handle dealing with women as equals.

I quoted 7man and followed the link to his blog. He is the one in the above comments who advises someone to find a nonChristian to lead.

7man: I am also a Catholic convert and an introvert (INTJ). I am a divorced “geek†with two daughters 9 & 13. I am not allowed to see them much because of a BatShitCrazy ex-wife and the tyranny of the Family Court. I remember back to when I decided to convert to being Catholic and my then-wife was upset that I didn’t consult her on my decision, even though she is Catholic too. WTF, LOL I am a logical guy and I know that use of Logic by Men is [considered] Abuse.

If only someone had been able to explain it to me sooner or if I had not been attending a “Catholic Faith Community†for so many years. A “Catholic Church†or a “Catholic Parish†might not have been so pandering and confusing.

It is weird that he didn't talk to his then wife about his decision to convert to her faith.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

The common bitter divorced guy. When DH was applying for his visa, we frequented a US immigration forum, with some of the most offensive, pig headed men ever to troll the Internet were there working on papers for their mail order brides. Almost without fail these men were marrying very young Filipino women, who they thought were the paragon of womanhood compared to the feminist, money grubbing evil American women.

Almost all those men too, were middle aged and divorced at least once. And what they wrote about American women is exactly what you pulled from the comments on that blog.

Oh HELL yes this. It's the "we have to go abroad to find real women who are happy to be women and won't emasculate a man.... meanwhile she better remain hot looking and not rebel or she'll be out on her ass - but she KNOWS it! Because we have an honest relationship! By the way, let me tell you about how our Men's Rights Association meeting went last week..."

Then they go on and on about how hot their wives are, how all the other men in the bar (or wherever) look with envy on their wives, because of course they're married to fat (always fat) mannish Americans, or whatever it is.

I've stumbled into some forums like that reading about legal issues or occasionally language questions, and it doesn't even seem to matter what the country of origin of the wives are - the common denominator is that they're married to misogynistic skeeves.

(Mind, there are plenty of sane normal international marriages going on, wouldn't want to imply there aren't of course!! It's just these stand out with their odiousness...)

[Loveday]

The common bitter divorced guy. When DH was applying for his visa, we frequented a US immigration forum, with some of the most offensive, pig headed men ever to troll the Internet were there working on papers for their mail order brides. Almost without fail these men were marrying very young Filipino women, who they thought were the paragon of womanhood compared to the feminist, money grubbing evil American women.

That's a bit ironic, considering Filipino women are traditionally completely in charge of the home and, usually, the family finances as well, regardless of whether they're fundie or not. Men who marry Filipinas thinking they'll get a totally subservient, submissive housewife are in for a bit of a shock after the honeymoon. :lol:

/not totally generalising, of course, but have been married to a Filipino man for over 25 years and know many first-generation American Filipina women, both Catholic and non-Catholic, who are NOT the doormats these fundie men would expect! :lol:

[Peas n carrots]

That's a bit ironic, considering Filipino women are traditionally completely in charge of the home and, usually, the family finances as well, regardless of whether they're fundie or not. Men who marry Filipinas thinking they'll get a totally subservient, submissive housewife are in for a bit of a shock after the honeymoon. :lol:

/not totally generalising, of course, but have been married to a Filipino man for over 25 years and know many first-generation American Filipina women, both Catholic and non-Catholic, who are NOT the doormats these fundie men would expect! :lol:

I know, isn't that the hilarious thing? My BFF's parents are from the Philippines and I know other Filipinas and the women do rule! I think some of these women do get pressured by their families to marry American men who will get them over to the US, and then in turn help bring the family over. So I think part of the role is playing the young, submissive woman. They're probably able to hoodwink these lackluster men as they are young, nubile and quote on quote "exotic" looking.

But true it's not just Filipina women, but they seem to be the popular flavor amongst chauvenist men wife shopping internationally right now.

[Conuly]

That's a bit ironic, considering Filipino women are traditionally completely in charge of the home and, usually, the family finances as well, regardless of whether they're fundie or not. Men who marry Filipinas thinking they'll get a totally subservient, submissive housewife are in for a bit of a shock after the honeymoon. :lol:

Well, that's the obvious way to do it. The person running the household needs the money.

[Loveday]

Well, that's the obvious way to do it. The person running the household needs the money.

True, but many times the Filipina wife actually gives her husband an allowance out of that money and if he runs out before the next allotment, he's SOL. In other words, she's in charge of ALL the money coming in--and has almost total say-so in where it goes--and more often than not, she's bringing in at least half of it herself! :lol:

Again, not trying to generalise, but if an American fundie man marries a young Filipina raised in her culture with all its usual traditions, the odds are good she's not going to become the perfect submissive ATI/VF/fundie housewife. Would love to be a fly on the wall when that realisation sets in for these guys. ;)

[Talitha Cumi]

Will the woman’s living standard go down if she divorces?

If yes, that society has a low divorce rate.

If no (via rigged laws), then that society has a high divorce rate.

Citation needed.

I’ve always wondered how we got to a point where men ask women to marry. Logically it never made sense to me. Men take on extra financial responsibilities and risk getting reamed in divorce court, yet we court them, woo them with rings and get down on our knees for that “privelege�

I've always made more money than my husband. At this point, we are living entirely on my salary. If he were to divorce me, he'd get spousal support, half the house, and half of my 401(k). I didn't marry him for sex, or for housekeeping. I married him because I loved him (and still do!), and we respect each other and work on our marriage BECAUSE we don't want to divorce. This man's argument is invalid.

[Peas n carrots]

True, but many times the Filipina wife actually gives her husband an allowance out of that money and if he runs out before the next allotment, he's SOL. In other words, she's in charge of ALL the money coming in--and has almost total say-so in where it goes--and more often than not, she's bringing in at least half of it herself! :lol:

Again, not trying to generalise, but if an American fundie man marries a young Filipina raised in her culture with all its usual traditions, the odds are good she's not going to become the perfect submissive ATI/VF/fundie housewife. Would love to be a fly on the wall when that realisation sets in for these guys. ;)

I don't know how many are fundies, but there seems to be a conservative streak amongst the men I've come across. In a few cases it seems she's able to get the upper hand eventually, as these men are so starstruck with their "exotic beauty." Btw this is all ancedotal...so I can't really tell you if this is the reality or not.

[doggie]

The idiots wonder why they can't find a suitable slave I mean wife? or why the wife took the kids away? Jesus these are some nasty men and only hardcore fundie woman would fit the bill. Well lets hope this keeps them from reproducing.

[Conuly]

True, but many times the Filipina wife actually gives her husband an allowance out of that money and if he runs out before the next allotment, he's SOL. In other words, she's in charge of ALL the money coming in--and has almost total say-so in where it goes--and more often than not, she's bringing in at least half of it herself! :lol:

That's exactly how my Belgian grandmother did it. She ran the house, she needed the money. Nobody else *needed* cash.

My mother would've been happy with a similar set-up (she worked, my dad stayed home) but they found out later that my dad was incapable of handling money responsibly, so ultimately she resorted to hiding cash in strategic amounts around the house and telling him where different caches were as things came up. So he DID control the money... but not all at once. Well, it worked for them.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Full gender equality will reduce divorce and strengthen the family.

As touched upon by comments upthread, controlling the divorce rate by making it economically impossible for a woman to survive outside of marriage, creates slavery. Call it whatever you like, but it is not marriage, it is slavery.

We need to not only change the economic opportunity, but also social norms. When families with a stay at home Dad are seen as equal to families with a stay at home Mom and are equal to families that split things in whatever way works for them, then the divorce rate will drop and families will have a better chance to hold together as a healthy, functioning unit.

[Kitten]

Yes, this all sounds exactly like one of my co-workers who bought ordered met his wife on one of those Southeast Asia mail order bride sites. He went off one time about "American women" and now I can barely stand to be in the same room with him. And on the surface, he's a very affable guy, so it's kind of like being in the room with one of the characters from Grimm - they look so normal at first, and then you see the true ugly beast inside. Fortunately, we work for different product groups, so I don't have to interact with him very often, but when I do, I have to grit my teeth and bite my tongue a lot.

:evil:

[shesinsane]

Based on the title, I thought this would be a thread about the Fox News website (even though they disabled commenting on most stories about a week or so ago). :D

[emmiedahl]

That's a bit ironic, considering Filipino women are traditionally completely in charge of the home and, usually, the family finances as well, regardless of whether they're fundie or not. Men who marry Filipinas thinking they'll get a totally subservient, submissive housewife are in for a bit of a shock after the honeymoon. :lol:

/not totally generalising, of course, but have been married to a Filipino man for over 25 years and know many first-generation American Filipina women, both Catholic and non-Catholic, who are NOT the doormats these fundie men would expect! :lol:

That is what I was thinking, too. The neighboring town to mine has a huge Filipino population and every Pinay woman I know personally is outspoken and independent. I know it is a stereotype, but I pity the man who assumes he will be getting a woman who is subservient and quiet when this does not seem to be the cultural norm. And I really pity the woman who gets shat upon for having a personality.

[Childless]

Citation needed.

I've always made more money than my husband. At this point, we are living entirely on my salary. If he were to divorce me, he'd get spousal support, half the house, and half of my 401(k). I didn't marry him for sex, or for housekeeping. I married him because I loved him (and still do!), and we respect each other and work on our marriage BECAUSE we don't want to divorce. This man's argument is invalid.

This is my situation too. My husband is currently a full time college student and does not work. We live entirely on my salary. However, in the state I live in, he would get half of our assets, but not a dime in spousal support as my state does not allow for alimony. I would most likely retain custody of our child since I'm the one that is employed and I'm the mother (our son is still very young). So, in reality, a divorce would affect him greatly while barely affecting me (at least financially). And even though this is our situation right now, I have not even once entertained the thought of a divorce. I love my husband. My economic freedom does not influence my decision to remain married. My happiness does.

[Elle]

TFH says:

March 3, 2012 at 2:42 pm

As I have said before, the divorce rate of a society depends on one thing predominantly :

Will the woman’s living standard go down if she divorces?

If yes, that society has a low divorce rate.

If no (via rigged laws), then that society has a high divorce rate.

All the rationalizations of not being ‘haaaapy’ or ‘growing apart’ or ‘needing to find herself’ are merely excuses to cosmetically cover the financial decision. In societies where a woman cannot secure assets through easy divorce, all those excuses are miraculously absent.

This lead to the other point I often bring up :

Democracy and Marriage cannot coexist for more than a century or so. It will not be obvious to people who have an adult lifespan shorter than that, but Democracy inevitably leads to women voting for laws to be rigged more and more in their favor, until, after a delayed reaction, men just refuse to play along. Women cannot stop themselves from ruthlessly revising the rules in their favor, so Democracy simply destroys the institution of marriage.

Conservatives think they are big on both Democracy and marriage. In reality, they have to pick one (they will usually pick Democracy since they don’t have the courage to address what is really destroying marriage).

Rigged laws? When women are property, we CAN'T leave. What that commenter is suggesting is nothing short of women being stuck in bad situations and who cares if the man is getting his somewhere else.

TFH says:

March 3, 2012 at 3:08 pm

I should add that in societies where men retain child custody, property rights, and can toss out his wife relatively easily, divorce is still pretty rare.

Men tend to be responsible adults that way. Perhaps a tiny bit of leeway in terms of having mistresses or going to prostitutes is a feature of such societies in order to keep things glued together, but that is a vastly lower social cost than what things are like in mature democracies

So they keep the wife around as cheap childcare while fucking around on the side.

TFH says:

March 3, 2012 at 5:02 pm

Agreed. When you give cash prizes, you incentivize bad behavior.

Yes, but I would add that men commonly don’t toss out their wives even in countries where they could do so easily and without financial cost. So women succumb to these perverse incentives much more easily than men (in marriage/family matters, at least).

I know so many people in India with unhappy marriages. The same people in the US would divorce, but in India, even one of my aunts told my Mom “Leaving would be worse than stayingâ€.

So she stays. And this aunt is a US citizen, but lives in India.

And in India, 90%+ of children, even the poorest slum dwellers, grow up with both biological parents. The US was like that 50 years ago, before, you know, divorce was made financially attractive for women.

The financial incentives are virtually 100% of the reason some societies have a 5-10% divorce rate, and others have a 45% divorce rate.

So it's something to be proud of when women who are miserable stay because it would be even worse to leave? And "incentives" can save lives. Those children goring up in slums because mom won't leave an abusive dad (I'm not saying all are, but using the "some" as example) because the law doesn't provide help for those escaping abuse are likely to be whored out to anyone willing to pay wen they're still in their single digits of age. How is it better for girls who are 6 or 7 to be with both parents if it means she'll be fucked by many "men" every night than for her mom to be able to get away and have a system to help? (Argument doesn't work when the dad isn't an asshole and the mom doesn't care, or the mom is abusive herself, but those situations beg the question why there is nothing in place to help get those children out of danger.)

Bastards were shunned. I think this was a two-parter. First, the marriageability of a woman was reduced if she had a child by someone else. Second, I wonder if older, wiser generations understood at some level that fatherless children grow up with more mental/emotional issues. Seeing some of these kids nowadays and knowing the statistical reality, I would do everything I could to keep my children from marrying a person who grew up without a father.

Without even addressing all else wrong, not all children born out of wedlock grow up with separated parents. I was born before my parents even got engaged, and they married and stayed married until death. My daughter was born before her dad and I were married. She and I are both considered to be bastards.

Also what about the fathers who fuck and flee? Yeah, some women do it too (and some don't want to deal with someone who's an ass or who they don't know or otherwise just wanted to be a mom without any father in the picture and don't always tell him), but not always. What about the fathers? And what about the fathers who are abusive? is it really better to have an abuser in the home than to be a child with an absent father?

SC says:

March 4, 2012 at 9:03 am

Back to the topic of haaappppiness and marriage. I don’t know if any of you remember this but, about 10 or 15 years ago, people used to criticize single mothers for the damage that frivolous divorce and fatherless homes were doing to their children. Women’s response was “the child is happy if the mother is happyâ€. Pure narcissism.

So I’m not surprised that women turn their back on religious marital values or that they so devalue their husbands. If they can justify the pain they bring onto their own children this way then nothing else will be holy to them either.

Apparently men are never the ones who don't want to get married. It's always the woman, eh? Men never beat up their wives or starve them or walk out for someone else? Oh, right, if she only shut up and served him well enough, he wouldn't have felt the "need" to beat or cheat on her or anything else....

[QAF_Rocks]

Without even addressing all else wrong, not all children born out of wedlock grow up with separated parents. I was born before my parents even got engaged, and they married and stayed married until death. My daughter was born before her dad and I were married. She and I are both considered to be bastards.

True. My brother and I were born out of wedlock, but we were raised in a two-parent home. But of course this guy is mostly upset about fatherless children, and since we had two lesbian moms, we definitely qualify for that. It's a shame we don't have those mental or emotional issues he's so worried about. Well, he can relax. I'm positive I don't want to marry into his family! ;)

[Wolfie]

Again, not trying to generalise, but if an American fundie man marries a young Filipina raised in her culture with all its usual traditions, the odds are good she's not going to become the perfect submissive ATI/VF/fundie housewife. Would love to be a fly on the wall when that realisation sets in for these guys. ;)

I had a hairdresser for a while (she was really good) who was a Filipina married to a older white man. Apparently there had been a divorce at some point when he realized that she was not the submissive little wife, but somehow they had ended up back together and once he realized that she was going to be in charge and take care of him it all worked out. She seemed very happy with the situation.

[synchroswimr]

Again, not trying to generalise, but if an American fundie man marries a young Filipina raised in her culture with all its usual traditions, the odds are good she's not going to become the perfect submissive ATI/VF/fundie housewife. Would love to be a fly on the wall when that realisation sets in for these guys. ;)

And hopefully she doesn't take the brunt of his realization :-( Not to say that all men who take mail-order brides are abusive, of course, but the MRA-types quoted here ... Scare me.