Fundies and moral development

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Add "And if I act in accordance to these rules, nothing bad can ever (again) happen to me." but yeah, this.

Yes, that, and it becomes a self perpetuating cycle of reward. Something good happened=God rewarding.

[jesssnerch]

I was quoting jesssnerch who said "those who believe in a higher power", which to me is a lot broader than fundies!

Yeah, that was my fault. I should have narrowed it down.

[Elle]

Yes, it is how their minds work. It's why so many of them scare the hell out of me. Their code of ethics is based on their expectations of reward/punishment. Not on respect for their fellow humans.

To some extent, all of us act based on rewards and punishments. You may not agree with certain laws, like the ban on pot, but you either abide by it or hide it, even if you disagree, because you can get in legal trouble. Drive safely and keep out of accidents, and you're rewarded with lower insurance premiums.

But for the larger part, non-theists act in the manner they would like others to treat them both because it's a good thing to be nice to others and care about them, and because f we all go around acting like disks to people, that's how we'll be treated in return, and that would suck. I guess you could argue that that's a punishment, being treated like dirt for being a prick, and a reward to be treated nicely in return for acting nice, but I don't think that's the first and foremost reason non-theists have for their behavior. For fundies, heaven and hell and being punished is the absolute #1 reason, and even if one of them things there's nothing wrong with homosexuality or something, they'll be out there protesting against it because supporting the right for others goes against their favorite book and would earn them a trip to hell.

I think kindness given without expecting a reward in the afterlife, or any real reward at all, is the true kindness. Fundies are being bribed by the thought of heaven as a reward. It's easy to tell who the ones who are genuinely kind are. They'll be the...no, wait, I ton'd know of any fundies who treat those who aren't a member of their cult with the same kindness they'll show each other, at least not without expecting something in return, like going to a disaster zone in another country and expecting religious conversions. We non-theists who are nice to people are nice because it's the nice (wow, I need a thesaurus, but who cares, I'm hitting up the Vicodin tonight) thing to do.

In a way it's like those who will donate but throw a fit if their name is left off the plaque naming donors because they wanted the positive attention versus those who donate and don't care, and so maybe even anonymously, because attention for the cause is more important than personal glory.

[Elle]

I was thinking about this exact thing this morning during my run. Here is my take on it-

They use their religon as a crutch, it takes the responsiblity away from them of having to make a decision. Everything is spelled out in the Bible and if you follow it you will have a great and wonderful life. I think that they stop maturing both emotionally and intellecturally at the point that they start believing, so for the rest of their life they are trapped due to their what I call "Social Developmental Delay". Since they are at a lower level of maturtiy they use that as a baseline and the kids are also delayed, turns into a cycle until someone escapes and then they need professional help to deal with the outside world. I see this every day at work with the members that have escaped or been thrown out of the FLDS. They might be early 20's however they have the life skills of a 12 year old. Very sad. J'Slaves have the same issue and Smugglar is the perfect example, he is a man child, with the emotionally and social IQ of a 16 year old.

Just my 2 cents.

And this is why I don't think this lifestyle can last. The "elders" among the movement weren't raised in it. They had the privilege of normal lives, and many of the women even got college degrees, and then intentionally decided to turn in the direction they went. Some may have come from families with a lot of kids, but birth control was once harder to get, if not impossible, and it didn't take two incomes to support a family. Let's not forget their families supported those among them who went to college. At the very least, all of them got actual high school educations instead of graduating from the SOTDRT at the "young" ages 16 barely literate.

What's going to happen when the educated (and willfully stupid) first generation dies off? Zsu and her husband are, I think, first-generationers, but what will happen to their kids and grandkids? What's going to happen to the Duggar kids, to the Botkinettes? Even among the royalty, the sons aren't very educated, and those who try to claim to have college under their belts are more likely to have learned how to CLEP out of things instead of actually learning to sit in a class and budget time and maybe learn something. Find me more than a couple fundy boys who've gone to high schools that weren't SOTDRT, or any that were SOTDRT and then went on to a REAL college for all of their classes, whether some were internet or all in person. College Minus doesn't count.

Pretty much all the royalty are online. It seems like there are a lot of them, but in the scheme of things, there aren't. Who knows how many there are without internet access, or with it, but don't blog. On the outside, I think two, maybe three, of the second-generationers might have enough of an education to be fine. But for the rest, they're so used to deferring to their first-generation dads, or in a few rarer cases, their first-generation grandfathers (going to their own second-generation dads who go to their own first-generation dads). Basically whoever the first patriarch in each family is controls their sons (and their sons' wives), and their own grandchildren.

No one believes for a second that the most famous second-gen boy, Smuggar, actually runs that car lot. At least those of us here, but in the world at large, he's the most famous in the second gen, even if no one else thinks of him that way. His dad owns the lot and others run it for his dad. If Boob were to die tomorrow, Jchelle MIGHT have enough brain cells left from her education days to get shit together and hold things together, but maybe not. Or if they were to both go down in a plane crash or something. Those kids would be screwed. JD I think has the best chance at being all right, but who knows how much of the tow business is controlled by his dad. Remember Boob is perfectly willing to mislead the world into thinking the car lot is all Smuggar's own endeavor and that Smugs owns it.

I think, when the first generation is gone, that most of the subsequent generations are going to crash and burn. The number of young women who've defected despite all they knew they would lose shows that some are already burning. For every escapee, there are probably at least five others who really want to leave because their brains weren't washed well enough of personal will and desires. When the patriarchs are gone, the glue holding shit together, then what? When the king dies, his sons don't all break things up into their own kingdoms. The oldest takes over, but they are all educated. Fundies aren't educated. Will each family have a fool for their new king?

[Elle]

After the death of my youngest son 2 years ago, my oldest son and I, as atheists are very much, almost painfully aware of the fact, that we have only one life and we try to make the most of it.

This is what sucks the most about no afterlife. We don't get to see our loved ones again, and I fight panic attacks every day terrified something will happen to someone I love.

What I don't get is how fundies are all so sure they're each getting into heaven, but are so convinced too that the slightest infraction gets you a one-way ticket to hell, and that even having certain thoughts can make you bound for hell. So why aren't they concerned about secret sinners among their families who they would have to spend an eternity without? Or is their love really so fickle that any family member who wasn't good enough they would rather not have around?

[Elle]

Yes, that, and it becomes a self perpetuating cycle of reward. Something good happened=God rewarding.

And something bad happening = god has a larger plan and you need to feel blessed that your toddler who died of leukemia was part of some great wonderful plan that will serve the glory of god. It's god so great?!