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'It's Not A Bad Thing For Children To Hear Prayer In School"


doggie

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We had this discussion, back when I was teaching. We got the "Fundies" to agree that so long as they could say their prayer first then every faith in the classroom could stand up and lead a prayer. We got a bunch of teachers together to simulate going round the class and everyone praying and it took about 10 minutes. Not a bad deal, right?

At least the idea died out, but it wouldn't have mattered how many teachers wanted to do it, or how many different religions were represented. Teacher-led prayer has been ruled unconstitutional. Students are allowed to pray on their own, of course, but public school teachers cannot lead prayers of any kind.

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I had kind of a childish faith in God during primary school years but became an atheist later on. I kind of guiltily liked singing the hymns and saying the prayers but I don't think it should have been forced. Kind of funny that it's compulsory in most primary schools here and only 10% of the population go to church. We're more Christian in theory, secular in practise.

It's actually compulsory in all schools, most secondary schools don't bother.

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I once saw a bumper sticker that was black with white text on the left side, and white with black text on the right side. The left side said:

Dear God, why do you allow violence to happen in schools? Sincerely, a student

The right side said:

Dear Student: I'm not allowed in schools. Sincerely, God

It made me feel very, very stabby (but not inside a school). Seriously, if your god is such a dick that he ALLOWS LITTLE CHILDREN TO BE MASSACRED IN SCHOOLS because they're not required to say a daily Lord's Prayer, then why on Earth do you worship him?

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I would like to ask him if he would be OK with alternating between prayers from Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, different Pagan religions, Native North American religions, etc. What about an atheist or agnostic sharing or something? Not OK? You meant only a Christian prayer? Religion doesn't belong in public schools for many reasons. Even having non-denominational prayer puts pressure on children to conform to the religious norm being perpetuated by the school prayer.

I still love the West Wing's explanation of why prayer doesn't belong in school in the episode Shibboleth:

That scene was the first thing that popped into my head when I opened this thread.

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At least the idea died out, but it wouldn't have mattered how many teachers wanted to do it, or how many different religions were represented. Teacher-led prayer has been ruled unconstitutional. Students are allowed to pray on their own, of course, but public school teachers cannot lead prayers of any kind.

Yeah we tried explaining that, several times. It wasn't until we said it would cost them money that they stopped complaining.

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My daughter's primary school has Christian prayers as part of assemblies. They also sing hymns and religious songs (kids stuff really). But it's a UK state school so that's a given. I don't mind that so much, she likes to sing so even singing the hymns is fun for her - it just has no meaning. Same with the prayers too. In RE they are taught about all the main religions and have celebrations for Eid, Diwali and Hanukkah as well as the Christian ones. More is made of Christianity (not in RE lessons) but I do wonder if that is more to do with her school having only a small percentage of ethnic minorities. She changes schools next month and is going to be going to a state high school with a special education unit (she's going in the SEU). Her new school has a very high proportion of Pakistani and Bangladeshi students; I think it is approaching 65%, might be even more. Usually at secondary level less is made of Christian prayers in state schools here, but I wonder if they will even bother at all at her new school. I know they will still celebrate the major religious festivals but I seriously doubt they will have bi-weekly Christian assemblies and prayers like her primary school does.

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It's actually compulsory in all schools, most secondary schools don't bother.

Is it? I thought secular primary schools didn't bother. My sister's boyfriend doesn't remember any kind of worship in his primary school except maybe some kind of Christmas celebration.

My secondary school wasn't religious exactly but it had a religious base so we had to sing hymns in assembly and stuff. I got really annoyed that we were expected to do it. There was a prayer room for all faiths which was used mainly by Muslim girls (there were quite a lot at my school, they didn't have to sing the hymns).

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Is it? I thought secular primary schools didn't bother. My sister's boyfriend doesn't remember any kind of worship in his primary school except maybe some kind of Christmas celebration.

My secondary school wasn't religious exactly but it had a religious base so we had to sing hymns in assembly and stuff. I got really annoyed that we were expected to do it. There was a prayer room for all faiths which was used mainly by Muslim girls (there were quite a lot at my school, they didn't have to sing the hymns).

Well technically there are no secular state primary schools in the UK. If they are not affiliated with a particular religion; ie, Catholic, Jewish or Islamic then they are by default Christian. I can't speak for the private sector, but from what I have seen even in private schools there are links to Christianity if they are not officially affiliated with one particular religion.

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I didn't grow up with prayer in school, but both of my parents did. My dad's so old he grew up singing God Save the Queen in school but that's another story.

In my school life teachers were cagey about prayers and religion in general. I remember in 5th grade we had a JW in our class, who went into the hall during the national anthem. So I asked him why. I wasn't trying to attack him, I just wanted to know about it because I'd never known any, except the ones who came to the door. I got told off by the teacher for even asking him, which I thought was overkill.

In 9th grade, somehow we got to discussing prayer in schools as a class. We asked why we couldn't have prayers. And the teacher responded with, "Well, if we did we'd have to Jewish prayers as well and Muslims ones and so on, on a rotation." Some of us wanted to have that. I thought it would be interesting. But the teachers thought it would be too much. Not in terms of organization but in terms of possible complaints.

The most I remember us doing was singing hymns alongside Christmas carols at the Christmas assembly. We did play "Onward Christian Soldiers" at a Remembrance Day assembly once, but just the piano tune not the lyrics.

I have neutral feelings about it. I wouldn't personally mind it, but I don't feel we should have it unless we can accommodate the school population. I know of one school in Toronto who wanted to have a Muslim prayer space at their school because a number of students were leaving the campus at lunch to walk to a mosque and the school felt that could be a liability, but I don't know if anything ever came of that.

I find a lot of older people, like my parents and grandparents want prayer in school, even if they aren't especially religious. My dad thinks we should have it, despite being agnostic/bordering on atheist. My mother wants it, despite being a C&E (Christmas and Easter) Christian. They use arguments like people were "more respectful", "had better manners", "society was better" etc. I think it's more a desire to try to recapture the culture they grew up in rather than a religious desire. I don't think their arguments are true (or if they are, I don't think it was exclusively do to prayer in schools), but they aren't the anomaly among older people I know.

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I went to a Catholic public high-school in the 80s -early 90s and we had to recite the Lord's Prayer first thing in the morning, standing up at attention behind our chairs while a voice recited it with us through the intercom.

It sucked, glad they don't do it here anymore.

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The Pledge of Allegiance being recited every damn day at 8am is annoying enough. Seriously, at 8am all any kid wants to do is either start on their work (or get it done if they procrastinated), or go back to sleep. There is zero reverence shown for the flag that early, except by the uber-patriots who pitch hissy fits when someone has the nerve to stand up but not say it because they're that fucking tired.

My dad was in the Navy, and I have more respect for that than the asshole trying to invoke patriotic fervor in a few hundred people every morning.

All a morning prayer will do is annoy students more.

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Here's my $0.02 as someone who actually went to a public school where there was school prayer (in Ontario, from grade 1 through grade 8).

May I ask when you went to pubic school in Ontario? It think it was before my time. I started Kindergarten in 1989 and we were never allowed to say prayers in school. We had a moment of silence after the national anthem every day that lasted less than 30 seconds. We were told it was a moment to reflect, be thankful, enjoy some silence, think about how you wanted to approach the day, etc. It was never religious and most kids just made silly faces at others, or when we were older, rolled their eyes. Most teachers didn't seem to mind.

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I went to private Catholic schools from K-12, and we said prayer at the start of every class. Not every morning, every CLASS. By third period everyone was mumbling the words.

The only school "prayer" that I remember comes from my 10th grade science teacher. At the start of her class she would say, Let us thank the great scientists who have given us cures, progress, and knowledge, amen.

I absolutely agree that prayer in schools cheapens genuine religious belief. It was just another chore for us, and as you can guess from my username, it didn't make much of an impression.

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Non-denominal prayer isn't possible You've got those who don't believe in god. You've got those who believe you must be in a certain pose in a certain direction, those who believe in one god, those who believe in many, those who believe they're not allowed to pray directly to any god, etc..

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