Vision Forum on Facebook

[Peas n carrots]

I love you muffynbear. :clap: :clap:

They are going to catch on you are trolling by the use of the word "eschew"...I think that word is a little big for the typical fundie vocabulary. :D

[QAF_Rocks]

From their website:

http://www.visionforumministries.org/events/food/

Thanks! Wow, that's certainly...eye-opening. Can't anything be normal in the fundie worldview? Do they have to make everything about religion, even something as simple as food? Seriously, "Food Heresies?" "The Theology of Mealtime?" It's like these people are from another planet. :roll:

[thoughtful]

Thanks! Wow, that's certainly...eye-opening. Can't anything be normal in the fundie worldview? Do they have to make everything about religion, even something as simple as food? Seriously, "Food Heresies?" "The Theology of Mealtime?" It's like these people are from another planet. :roll:

I think that, in the case of Vision Forum, the line of thought is "what haven't we made a buck from yet?"

[fluttershies]

The theology of mealtime actually sounds quite interesting....but not from the Vision Forum perspective. In terms of how meals are portrayed in the Bible, I could see that actually being a fascinating study with a lot of material, like the wedding at Cana, the Last Supper etc.

Also, having your faith impact on all aspects of your life is surely not just a fundie thing? An Orthodox Jew would have their religion impact on most of their life, but are not fundie and I don't think it makes it abnormal, just that they take their religion seriously.

[Witsec7]

Our UU has a lot of workshops around food, feasts, sustainable farming, gmo's. They just don't have the profit motive VF has, nor are they willing to dress sillier than normal to move a point forward.

[NurseNell]

I trolled on their FB page:

Surely you are banned by now. :lol: I was banned when I asked Dougie what branch of the military he served in. :|

[Elle]

From their website:

http://www.visionforumministries.org/events/food/

I'll be surprised when Doug DOESN'T speak at an event. These events are nothing more than chances to dress up and be in the spotlight.

[Elle]

According to one blog post, Dougie considers the idea that people can get all their nourishment from sunlight to be a food heresy.

The only people who think this is possible are either dead or dying from starvation as they try to prove it's possible. Everyone else knows it's not. I think those who this it is are mentally unstable and trying to kill themselves, and the mentally unstable aren't really capable of heresy since that implies purposefully misleading people.

[Elle]

I can't see Jchelle dressing in a costume or allowing any of her kids to participate aside from wearing a hat you might find someone wearing on Easter.

[QAF_Rocks]

The theology of mealtime actually sounds quite interesting....but not from the Vision Forum perspective. In terms of how meals are portrayed in the Bible, I could see that actually being a fascinating study with a lot of material, like the wedding at Cana, the Last Supper etc.

Also, having your faith impact on all aspects of your life is surely not just a fundie thing? An Orthodox Jew would have their religion impact on most of their life, but are not fundie and I don't think it makes it abnormal, just that they take their religion seriously.

I would consider Orthodox Jews fundie. As far as religion goes, there's a difference between taking it seriously and making every single thing in life about religion. If absolutely nothing is normal and innocuous, if everything has to have some kind of spiritual or religious component, I think that's pretty far off the deep end.

[thoughtful]

I've got VF's next big money-making event planned:

You do it 20,000 times a day, seven days a week and fifty-two weeks a year. If you live to be 85 years of age, you will experience it more times than our SOTDRT minds can calculate. It is called breathing, and it was designed by God as the fuel of life. But to describe air merely as fuel falls short of the depth and breadth (and breath - get it?) of the biblical message. Frankly, there are few subjects which are addressed as often in the Bible as air. Hundreds, if not thousands of Scripture verses, incorporate various types of people who breathe, directions about breathing and spiritual lessons in which air is an element.

In air we see the love of Jesus Christ for His Church, the wisdom of God as Creator, the mercy of the Lord on the sons of men, and a vehicle for structuring and organizing the life and dominion labors of mankind.

Discussion Topics Include:

Breathing as Family Culture

The Theology of Inhaling and Exhaling

The Politicization of Air – Obama's Socialist Plan to Share Your Air

Being a Manly Headship – taking Dominion over Your Family's Air

Air Frugality

The Art of Offering Air to Guests

Informed Stewardship of the Lungs

Asthma as God's Punishment for Apostasy

Dominion over plants – make them work for that carbon dioxide

The Heresy of OxyClean

Nose or Mouth – Which is More Godly?

Balloons – A Sin?

Panting – DEFINITELY a Sin!

And Many More!

Speakers Include:

Terry McMillan (author of Waiting to Exhale)

Louis C. Camilleri (CEO of Philip Morris)

Former members of Aum Shinrikyo

Doug Phillips

And Many More!

Special Highlights Include:

Special Ladies’ breathing session (Victorian costumes, with corsets, required) – learn to sigh piteously

Performances by Air Supply

Daughters trimming their fathers' nose hair

FABulous Vendors

And Much More!

Don't breathe until you've learned how to make it Godly, and paid us thousands of dollars to find out how!

[fluttershies]

I would consider Orthodox Jews fundie. As far as religion goes, there's a difference between taking it seriously and making every single thing in life about religion. If absolutely nothing is normal and innocuous, if everything has to have some kind of spiritual or religious component, I think that's pretty far off the deep end.

We have some Orthodox Jews on this board, they are not fundie. Not that fundie Orthodox Jews don't exist, but they are not fundie by default. You cannot compare a modern Orthodox family whose children go to public school to a family like the Duggars. Orthodox =/= Chassidic.

There's a difference between faith and religion, and while there is not religious ritual in everything I do, my faith has an effect on most things I do - for instance, buying fairtrade products, not shopping at certain stores who have particularly unethical practices, buying ethically-produced food (eg free-range eggs). I don't see how that's off the deep end, it's just having a different reason for doing what a lot of people do.

[twin2]

I've got VF's next big money-making event planned:

You do it 20,000 times a day, seven days a week and fifty-two weeks a year. If you live to be 85 years of age, you will experience it more times than our SOTDRT minds can calculate. It is called breathing, and it was designed by God as the fuel of life. But to describe air merely as fuel falls short of the depth and breadth (and breath - get it?) of the biblical message. Frankly, there are few subjects which are addressed as often in the Bible as air. Hundreds, if not thousands of Scripture verses, incorporate various types of people who breathe, directions about breathing and spiritual lessons in which air is an element.

In air we see the love of Jesus Christ for His Church, the wisdom of God as Creator, the mercy of the Lord on the sons of men, and a vehicle for structuring and organizing the life and dominion labors of mankind.

Discussion Topics Include:

Breathing as Family Culture

The Theology of Inhaling and Exhaling

The Politicization of Air – Obama's Socialist Plan to Share Your Air

Being a Manly Headship – taking Dominion over Your Family's Air

Air Frugality

The Art of Offering Air to Guests

Informed Stewardship of the Lungs

Asthma as God's Punishment for Apostasy

Dominion over plants – make them work for that carbon dioxide

The Heresy of OxyClean

Nose or Mouth – Which is More Godly?

Balloons – A Sin?

Panting – DEFINITELY a Sin!

And Many More!

Speakers Include:

Terry McMillan (author of Waiting to Exhale)

Louis C. Camilleri (CEO of Philip Morris)

Former members of Aum Shinrikyo

Doug Phillips

And Many More!

Special Highlights Include:

Special Ladies’ breathing session (Victorian costumes, with corsets, required) – learn to sigh piteously

Performances by Air Supply

Daughters trimming their fathers' nose hair

FABulous Vendors

And Much More!

Don't breathe until you've learned how to make it Godly, and paid us thousands of dollars to find out how!

Will it have a ladies Edwardian tea.

[Witsec7]

It's been specified by Thoughtful that it is to be Victorian, but a bit of nuance will never be noticed.

Thoughtful you may want to add this for authenticity :lol:

Vision Forum Ministries reserves the right to refuse entry to any person at any time or event, for any reason, at our sole discretion

[fluttershies]

It's been specified by Thoughtful that it is to be Victorian, but a bit of nuance will never be noticed.

Thoughtful you may want to add this for authenticity :lol:

Clearly they use this when someone turns up in the same period outfit they wore to the last ladies' tea :p

It's the extortionate cost that gets me - I'd take a church potluck over faux-historical posturing any day.

[QAF_Rocks]

We have some Orthodox Jews on this board, they are not fundie. Not that fundie Orthodox Jews don't exist, but they are not fundie by default. You cannot compare a modern Orthodox family whose children go to public school to a family like the Duggars. Orthodox =/= Chassidic.

There's a difference between faith and religion, and while there is not religious ritual in everything I do, my faith has an effect on most things I do - for instance, buying fairtrade products, not shopping at certain stores who have particularly unethical practices, buying ethically-produced food (eg free-range eggs). I don't see how that's off the deep end, it's just having a different reason for doing what a lot of people do.

I think we just disagree. If "fundie" means adhering to the fundamentals of a religion, then I would argue that Orthodox Jews, whose religious rules and rituals affect almost every aspect of their life, would be very fundie indeed. You can wear normal clothes and even attend public schools and still be fundie.

I would personally classify making everything religious as "off the deep end" because it means that nothing is normal. What happens to everyday, mundane things if everything you do or think or say has some connection to a god or goddess? If even something as simple as eating lunch has a religious component, I don't see any way for a secular person to relate to that type of individual. There's nothing I could possibly have in common with them if they can't stop thinking about their religion long enough to even have a meal. Zero common ground. These Vision Forum people are so hyper-religious that they feel compelled to take a innocuous, normal thing like food and give it a spiritual meaning.

[thoughtful]

Will it have a ladies Edwardian tea.

Hmmm . . . one doesn't breathe tea. Doug will have to come up with something old-fashioned that is inhaled or smoked . . .

thinking . . .

Aren't they pretty and feminine and old-fashioned? :D

[fluttershies]

I think we just disagree. If "fundie" means adhering to the fundamentals of a religion, then I would argue that Orthodox Jews, whose religious rules and rituals affect almost every aspect of their life, would be very fundie indeed. You can wear normal clothes and even attend public schools and still be fundie.

I would personally classify making everything religious as "off the deep end" because it means that nothing is normal. What happens to everyday, mundane things if everything you do or think or say has some connection to a god or goddess? If even something as simple as eating lunch has a religious component, I don't see any way for a secular person to relate to that type of individual. There's nothing I could possibly have in common with them if they can't stop thinking about their religion long enough to even have a meal. Zero common ground. These Vision Forum people are so hyper-religious that they feel compelled to take a innocuous, normal thing like food and give it a spiritual meaning.

Plenty of secular people give meaning to ordinary things like clothes, food etc. A vegan would make sure that their shoes are not made from leather, there is no honey or beeswax in their beauty products, there is no dairy in their food etc - not to mention that certain medications are not even vegetarian as they use gelatine casings. Veganism has an impact on most areas of a vegan's life - so are vegans fundie and 'off the deep end'? Is a secular person avoiding non-free-range eggs and meat 'off the deep end' because they give meaning to their food? You don't have to be religious to be mindful of how you live your life. Isn't that why fundies' arguments are flawed, because they claim that secular people don't have morals? Food has moral and cultural meaning to everyone, religious or not - why else would foods like balut or foie gras be controversial if people didn't attach meaning to food? Would you really have nothing in common with someone who say, only bought organic food? There's no difference between someone who buys organic because of their environmentally-friendly life, and someone who buys organic because of their religion.

[QAF_Rocks]

Plenty of secular people give meaning to ordinary things like clothes, food etc. A vegan would make sure that their shoes are not made from leather, there is no honey or beeswax in their beauty products, there is no dairy in their food etc - not to mention that certain medications are not even vegetarian as they use gelatine casings. Veganism has an impact on most areas of a vegan's life - so are vegans fundie and 'off the deep end'? Is a secular person avoiding non-free-range eggs and meat 'off the deep end' because they give meaning to their food? You don't have to be religious to be mindful of how you live your life. Isn't that why fundies' arguments are flawed, because they claim that secular people don't have morals? Food has moral and cultural meaning to everyone, religious or not - why else would foods like balut or foie gras be controversial if people didn't attach meaning to food? Would you really have nothing in common with someone who say, only bought organic food? There's no difference between someone who buys organic because of their environmentally-friendly life, and someone who buys organic because of their religion.

I think we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about people who are so hyper-religious that they turn everything into a religious event, fraught with religious meaning and spiritual symbolism, even something as ordinary and mundane as going out for pizza or taking a walk in the park. I don't see that as normal. It's not even about the food itself - it's about taking these things that any reasonable person would see as secular and making them religious, IMO, twisting them into something religious.

It's like the Duggars. They don't allow their children to enjoy secular entertainment, even books and movies that would be considered completely inoffensive, because those things don't promote Jesus. And in the Duggars' eyes, their children have to spend every single second thinking about Jesus. That, to me, is making life very narrow and constricted. It's a very fundie view, making everything in life about religion. Even a simple children's picture book, even a simple meal.

I don't know what veganism has to do with the discussion, but I would say that if someone spends the majority of their day thinking about veganism and talking about veganism even when the topic has nothing to do with veganism, I would consider that "off the deep end." And I'm a vegetarian.

[Buzzard]

It's been specified by Thoughtful that it is to be Victorian, but a bit of nuance will never be noticed.

Thoughtful you may want to add this for authenticity :lol:

How very christian of them, turning away people that want to learn about jesus give them money!

How do you think J'chelle will explain the dietary habits of her oldest son?

[fluttershies]

I think we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about people who are so hyper-religious that they turn everything into a religious event, fraught with religious meaning and spiritual symbolism, even something as ordinary and mundane as going out for pizza or taking a walk in the park. I don't see that as normal. It's not even about the food itself - it's about taking these things that any reasonable person would see as secular and making them religious, IMO, twisting them into something religious.

It's like the Duggars. They don't allow their children to enjoy secular entertainment, even books and movies that would be considered completely inoffensive, because those things don't promote Jesus. And in the Duggars' eyes, their children have to spend every single second thinking about Jesus. That, to me, is making life very narrow and constricted. It's a very fundie view, making everything in life about religion. Even a simple children's picture book, even a simple meal.

I don't know what veganism has to do with the discussion, but I would say that if someone spends the majority of their day thinking about veganism and talking about veganism even when the topic has nothing to do with veganism, I would consider that "off the deep end." And I'm a vegetarian.

OK, I think I just misunderstood your point, apologies and IA with you :)

[treemom]

I also have a really board view of fundamentalism and believe Mormons, many Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, and yes, Jews can all be fundamentalist.

[fluttershies]

I also have a really board view of fundamentalism and believe Mormons, many Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, and yes, Jews can all be fundamentalist.

I agree, I just don't think Orthodox Jews are fundie by default, although fundie Orthodox Jews certainly exist.

[pomology]

I would consider Orthodox Jews fundie. As far as religion goes, there's a difference between taking it seriously and making every single thing in life about religion. If absolutely nothing is normal and innocuous, if everything has to have some kind of spiritual or religious component, I think that's pretty far off the deep end.

Modern Orthodoxy does the former, not the latter, meaning that many Modern Orthodox Jews are not, in your own definition, fundie. The whole idea that separates Modern Orthodoxy from other strains of Orthodoxy is that it values secular ideas for their own sake. In other strains of Orthodoxy people study (or at least would study, my knowledge comes from the 19th century by and large) secular subjects, but only for the sake of supporting themselves or to help them understand the Talmud better, but did not value secularism for its own sake. But there's a reason that the motto of Yeshiva University is Torah Umadda -- Torah and secular knowledge.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of fundamentalist Jews, don't get me fucking started on these people, because they are batshit crazy and deserve no excuses for their fundamentalist bullshit. Fundies can and do come in all religions. But not all Orthodox Jews are fundamentalist.

[Funky Chicken]

Will it have a ladies Edwardian tea.

No, a Ladies' Airdwardian tea...

We once picked up a little book at a flea market, entitled, "Why Breathe", by Kellogg (I'm pretty sure it's the same Kellogg)... It was fascinating. If I ever find it in the depths of our book boxes, I'll post some excerpts as the cray-cray was pungent...