Sleeping on shelving??

[TMS]

I guess your family was lucky? The HEB in McAllister park is where I saw the full endcap of rat poison and traps and such, and my friend who lived in that neighborhood in a gorgeous home had to vacate for the exterminator -- a retired military friend who still worked at Brooks. Friends in the NE section, east of 281 and north of the airport had problems. A doctor friend North of Huebner, somewhere between Babcock and I-10 had problems. Friends in Helotes. -- all nicer areas. And then there were the people who I rubbed elbows with at work who mentioned the problem, but I figured it was none of my business.

It also came up in clinical settings where I had nursing students on pediatric rotations in the hospital and in the daycare segments of their training, addressed as a public health issue.

What can I tell you? We lived in the area from '97 - '04.

I guess we were lucky! Yuck! I grew up in Helotes, and my dad moved to Leon Springs (near the Dominion) in '05. When I lived in SA, I lived in Northchase, which is part of the Great Northwest. We did have a rat drown in our kiddie pool once (which completely grossed me out, I threw the whole pool away), but never had any other problems, never had any in the house. Our pest problem was gigantic roaches, blech. We moved in 2007.

[pomology]

She one-upped Harry Potter and stuck 3 kids in that closet! I can see Dumbledore having some serious issues with this...

But Dumbledore is gay (and a wizard), so I don't think fundies care about what he would think.

[Feberin]

I stopped reading Kim's blog, but just went back to take a look. This is part of her July 12 post on losing weight. She's still lazy.

"When I say I increased my activity level, I just mean I quit sitting around like a lump all day.

For one thing, I started running far more errands here at the house:

When I needed my purse, I got it myself.

When I needed a glass of water, I got it myself.

When one of the little ones wanted a drink, I got it myself.

And a hundred other examples..."

Wow that is lazy! How in the world can any healthy person not typically get their own water or purse or take care of their little children? I have one toddler and feel like I never get to sit down on days that I'm home with him alone. I guess my problem is that I should have 9 more so I can sit around like a lazy lump. :roll:

Oh and after all this talk of rats I don't think I want to live in San Antonio ever. We have rats outside but so far haven't had any problems in our house.

When somebody mentioned closet beds I thought it was one or two that would have a large size closet but that's nuts. I used to sleep in a walk in closet at my ex-stepmother's apartment but that was my choice because I didn't want to share a room and the walk in was HUGE!

[ladypuglover]

Wow that is lazy! How in the world can any healthy person not typically get their own water or purse or take care of their little children? I have one toddler and feel like I never get to sit down on days that I'm home with him alone. I guess my problem is that I should have 9 more so I can sit around like a lazy lump. :roll:

Oh and after all this talk of rats I don't think I want to live in San Antonio ever. We have rats outside but so far haven't had any problems in our house.

When somebody mentioned closet beds I thought it was one or two that would have a large size closet but that's nuts. I used to sleep in a walk in closet at my ex-stepmother's apartment but that was my choice because I didn't want to share a room and the walk in was HUGE!

When I had toddlers and preschoolers I didn't get to sit down for long and I doubt many other parents can when their tots are that young. But then again I didn't force my older kids into the role of brother-mother of my little ones. I kind of miss those days as weight loss wasn't an issue due to all the excersie of running after a naked toddler bent on escaping. :lol:

[DistantStar]

I lived in San Antonio for three years as a kid and don't remember any rat problems, but oy, the roaches. My mom and I once ran into what must be like the Cockroach God in a bathroom in the basement of Wilford Hall (the Air Force hospital) -- that SOB was about four inches long and all around HUGE! Normally bugs don't freak me out but we both ran screaming from it.

I bet that roach is still lurking in that basement, thirty years later, quietly...growing. *shudder*

[fundiefan]

All these blogs have made me so grateful for my fucked up childhood. I had a bed. Always. Of course I was born to a single mother and she was trash for not only not being married but also for only having two children and gave us no kind of religious upbringing and sent us to public school and let us out of her sight, often. So, I am sure that she is destined for hell while the storage shelf momma's are bound for glory at god's feet. Somehow, I don't think my mom would care. Giving the kids she chose to have beds, safe housing, food that was meant to nourish, not win a contest for most frugal ways to use a pound of ground beef for a family of ten (we used a pound for one meal to feed four females in our house).

I really feel creeped out and depressed reading these blogs. Who the hell goes out of their way to make their children live in the worst conditions they can come up with?

It also makes me really, really hate their husbands. What father - especially one who is the sole 'provider' for his family - would allow that? What father wouldn't go out of his way to come up with better accommodations for his family? What kind of father chooses to build a house that was too small to start; one he knew would get smaller as they cranked out more kids - which they had every intention of doing - and moves his family in before it's actually even finished?

Having to deal with poor living conditions because of circumstances is one thing. These people are choosing this kind of bull shit living.

With that, I am taking my ass to my queen sized bed, which I alone sleep in, and reading something trashy to get my brain to stop spinning and going ape shit over people I don't even know.

[emmiedahl]

I have wondered about this for years and I don't think there is any laws about this. My cousin had a daughter with an ex girlfriend who is now 18. My cousin chose not to be in his daughter's life but my aunt and uncle decided to keep in contact with her. They told us years ago that she lives in 3 bedroom mobile home with 18 other people. Those people are the girl's maternal relatives. Since then I have wondered if there are laws against how many people can be in a small house and I don't think there laws about it.

There are laws regarding maximum occupancy that you can read about here http://www.msslc.com/occupancy.html . To use another website's paraphrasing of the law, each dwelling must have at least one room 120 square feet or more and all other habitable rooms excluding the kitchen must be at least 70 square feet. If a room is used for sleeping by more than two people, then the minimum square footage must be increased by 50 square feet for each additional person. For example, if three people were using a room to sleep, it would have to be at least 120 square feet. If four people were sleeping in one room, it would have to be at least 170 square feet.

Also discussed on that website is the 2 per bedroom plus one law. So a home with three bedrooms is legal for 7 people. Some people push it because they have to, and no one intervenes unless it is a huge problem. I would characterize 8 children in a room as a huge problem. Not to mention that any room used for sleeping must have two points of exit--another federal law--so the lady with kids in a closet is also breaking laws.

[TMS]

I would have gone insane being raised in a house like Life in a Shoe. I always had my own room and sometimes I just needed to get away from everyone and enjoy some peace and quiet - alone. I am still like that. Maybe not everyone needs time alone, but many people do. My 3 kids each have their own rooms with their own regular sized beds with real mattresses. One of the (many) reasons dh & I didn't have a butt load of kids is because we don't live in a mansion.

[ladypuglover]

Sometimes my sons have shared rooms or even beds depending on their ages or home we lived in. One example would be when we had our first 3 all the age of 4 and under. We had them in 2 twins and the baby in a crib on one side of a huge room (was the familyroom) and dressers and toy boxes on the other side. It was twice the size of the master bedroom and they each had their own bed. My 2 little ones wanted and still do want to share a queen size bed even though there are 2 other large bedrooms with either 2 twins or a double bed. They just don't to sleep alone in the dark and none of us has an issue about it.

Growing up I shared a room with my sister next up in age from me. After I was switched from the crib to a bed, I shared a queen size bed with her as I was scared of the dark and would cry unless she was with me. After older sisters started moving out we both were sent to new rooms but after a long, long story and many switches, I was back in my old room with my new toddler bed and very happy to do so. I still wanted to sleep with my older sister but she wouldn't stay awake to fight monsters while I slept, so being back in my old room in my "perfect for me" bed was almost as good.

Children can sleep together and they can sleep apart from one another, whatever works but all children should have real beds. And army cots and storage shelves are not going to cut it.

[Wolfie]

Oh, that picture just makes me sad for those poor kids. That's just awful.

How odd...I lived in San Antonio for 30 yrs and never had a rat problem...my dad still lives there and has no rat problem, never has in the past. Never heard of any friends having problems with them either.

Did you have a cat or a dog?

Seriously, I've lived in rat infested neighborhoods (trust me, they are all over and some can be the ritzy older neighborhoods) and never had rats IN my house, but run into them outside. I've always had 2 or 3 cats. Once I moved out of a rural house, where I hadn't seen a rat the entire time I was there, and when I went back to finish up the cleaning (no food was left in the house) rats had moved in.

[FundiesInMyFamily]

My parents got divorced when I was a teenager and my mom could only afford a 2 bedroom apartment, so she made up a bedroom for herself in the dining room so my sister & I could have separate bedrooms because we are so different. I am greatful for that sacrifice - my sister and I would have made do but it was wonderful always having my own space to get away as a teenager.

[lilwriter85]

There are laws regarding maximum occupancy that you can read about here http://www.msslc.com/occupancy.html . To use another website's paraphrasing of the law, each dwelling must have at least one room 120 square feet or more and all other habitable rooms excluding the kitchen must be at least 70 square feet. If a room is used for sleeping by more than two people, then the minimum square footage must be increased by 50 square feet for each additional person. For example, if three people were using a room to sleep, it would have to be at least 120 square feet. If four people were sleeping in one room, it would have to be at least 170 square feet.

Also discussed on that website is the 2 per bedroom plus one law. So a home with three bedrooms is legal for 7 people. Some people push it because they have to, and no one intervenes unless it is a huge problem. I would characterize 8 children in a room as a huge problem. Not to mention that any room used for sleeping must have two points of exit--another federal law--so the lady with kids in a closet is also breaking laws.

Thanks for that link and the summary. I have wondered about this for a few years now. I have only met my cousin's daughter once and she was 15 at the time. My aunt and uncle were also concerned but I think they didn't voice their concerns because they feared the girl's mother would get mad at them and not them let them see her.

[youshouldknowx4]

Long time lurker here, finally got around to registering.

If someone has a general idea where she lives, why not call cps in that area? If you dig a bit you can find the birth story of her last child. She had him on the chicken shit covered deck. Really.

She is a fruitloop and a half.

[TMS]

Did you have a cat or a dog?

Seriously, I've lived in rat infested neighborhoods (trust me, they are all over and some can be the ritzy older neighborhoods) and never had rats IN my house, but run into them outside. I've always had 2 or 3 cats. Once I moved out of a rural house, where I hadn't seen a rat the entire time I was there, and when I went back to finish up the cleaning (no food was left in the house) rats had moved in.

Ahhh....that may be why. I have always had a dog. When I was growing up in Helotes we had one outdoor dog (big Rottweiler mix) and several outdoor cats. Even living on 1.5 acres, we never had snakes, mice, rats, or anything. When I lived in the GNW I didn't have a cat, but there were several neighborhood cats who were always hanging around our house.

[VVV]

My husband and I have owned our home in San Antonio since 1993. It was built nearly 60 years ago in a near-Northside neighborhood (about a mile south of North Star Mall, for those of you who know the city). It is a decent sized house on a third of an acre in a middle class neighborhood.

We have had rats off and on for years.

Well, to clarify, our rat problem has lessened significantly (although not 100%) since we put a metal roof on our house, eliminating many of the openings to the outside, but they still get in from time to time and we hear them in the attic. We used to do the spring traps until, with Darwin's help, we succeeded in developing a strain of rats so resourceful that they could get the peanut butter from the trap without ever disturbing the business part of it. We have since moved on to poison which is effective. If only the rats were more choosy about where they died. My husband and I are not bound by gender roles in general but I make an exception for rodent carcass removal--that's his job.

Oh, we have dogs too, but the dogs don't seem nearly as upset about the rats as we are. Cats are not an option as both my daughter and I are allergic.

Just wanted to confirm from firsthand knowledge that rats are endemic in San Antonio and that they aren't limited to the poorer neighborhoods.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I told my mom about this family and their children sleeping on stacked shelves. She said, "Isn't that what they used to do on slave ships?"

[fundiefan]

I told my mom about this family and their children sleeping on stacked shelves. She said, "Isn't that what they used to do on slave ships?"

No shit.

I don't believe for a second her kids 'begged' her to do this (referring to the in a shoe chick). They don't know any better and also know they don't have a freaking choice. Live in misery or adapt and learn to accept. That's scary shit. Kids adapt to abuse, too, to prevent more. Adapting - and saying what mom & dad want you to say - is learned behavior and happens to preserve your own sanity.

And even if they didn't consider questioning the whole situation - that's even worse. So thoroughly programmed they have no clue they deserve more or better?

No doubt every one of those kids expressed 'joy' at all in the same space on shelf-system substitutes for beds. What choice do they have? The mind is an amazing thing in how it does what it needs to do for survival. Physical survival and emotional survival. Humans are born sponges; they not only learn and live and grow, they adapt because of experience. They also need and crave love and affection and validation.

In a shoe's kids know how to be loved and acknowledged. Give mom & dad what they want.

[Guest Anonymous]

I really feel creeped out and depressed reading these blogs. Who the hell goes out of their way to make their children live in the worst conditions they can come up with?

That's just it, it's like the "deprivation olympics", but only when it comes to their children. Mommy and Daddy never have to sleep on a two-foot wide bed in a room with 9 other people. Mommy and daddy always have plenty to eat.

It boggles my mind that these women can afford the $30.00/ month internet bill, but their kids are sleeping on racks and eating almost nothing. There's no reason for their behaviour other than the fact that they love the attention.

So they keep popping out kids they can't care for by first-world standards and they wonder why people say it's sick.

"And even if they didn't consider questioning the whole situation - that's even worse. So thoroughly programmed they have no clue they deserve more or better? "

Homeschooling helps. If you don't know it's not normal, then you don't know it's abuse and/or neglect.

[starfish]

I know, I think she's training them up to join the Russian navy in the submarine unit.

That house only has one bathroom, and she said one time that everyone just goes outside to the bathroom. They don't have a formal outhouse, but she says they just go to the woods or the yard. It's as if they live in a poor Asian country.

They have no air conditioning either. I think they had a couple of window units, but it was too expensive to run them so they got rid of them and now rely on ye olde box fan. In Texas. In the summer. That's just cruel. I'm hoping that oldest daughter will run off and live with one of us or perhaps join military. Anything to get away from that rich vein of crazy.

[gingernut]

All these blogs have made me so grateful for my fucked up childhood. I had a bed. Always. Of course I was born to a single mother and she was trash for not only not being married but also for only having two children and gave us no kind of religious upbringing and sent us to public school and let us out of her sight, often. So, I am sure that she is destined for hell while the storage shelf momma's are bound for glory at god's feet. Somehow, I don't think my mom would care. Giving the kids she chose to have beds, safe housing, food that was meant to nourish, not win a contest for most frugal ways to use a pound of ground beef for a family of ten (we used a pound for one meal to feed four females in our house).

I really feel creeped out and depressed reading these blogs. Who the hell goes out of their way to make their children live in the worst conditions they can come up with?

It also makes me really, really hate their husbands. What father - especially one who is the sole 'provider' for his family - would allow that? What father wouldn't go out of his way to come up with better accommodations for his family? What kind of father chooses to build a house that was too small to start; one he knew would get smaller as they cranked out more kids - which they had every intention of doing - and moves his family in before it's actually even finished?

Having to deal with poor living conditions because of circumstances is one thing. These people are choosing this kind of bull shit living.

With that, I am taking my ass to my queen sized bed, which I alone sleep in, and reading something trashy to get my brain to stop spinning and going ape shit over people I don't even know.

Well spoken!!

I grew up with alot of siblings and we were even poor but my parents had the decency to provide us with beds. I have lived in the San Antonio area before..and it isn't just that they don't have air conditioning...they are so tightly packed in...how could they even breathe or sleep on a hot humid night?

[jenny_islander]

It's just a couple of steps above World War II concentration and POW camps. At least they are not adults being forced to sleep in a 2-foot strip of space on a shelf. They're probably small enough that when one turns over the others don't have to.

Do they try to justify this treatment with Bible references? Biblically, people had flat white-painted roofs with railings around them and they slept up there on hot nights. Not stuffed into storage closets with rats in the walls!

[FloraDoraDolly]

No shit.

I don't believe for a second her kids 'begged' her to do this (referring to the in a shoe chick). They don't know any better and also know they don't have a freaking choice. Live in misery or adapt and learn to accept. That's scary shit. Kids adapt to abuse, too, to prevent more. Adapting - and saying what mom & dad want you to say - is learned behavior and happens to preserve your own sanity.

And even if they didn't consider questioning the whole situation - that's even worse. So thoroughly programmed they have no clue they deserve more or better?

No doubt every one of those kids expressed 'joy' at all in the same space on shelf-system substitutes for beds. What choice do they have? The mind is an amazing thing in how it does what it needs to do for survival. Physical survival and emotional survival. Humans are born sponges; they not only learn and live and grow, they adapt because of experience. They also need and crave love and affection and validation.

In a shoe's kids know how to be loved and acknowledged. Give mom & dad what they want.

Or maybe the kids reacted with enthusiasm in the beginning because it looked like something new, different, and fun. (Think of all the kids who think they'd like to camp out in the backyard until they actually try it.) Perhaps the Shoe kids did enjoy it for a night or two or however long it took before the room got too hot, someone bumped her head, or one of the top bunk kids fell off and got hurt. But by then, it was too late; the children had already "agreed" that they wanted to sleep on shelves from now on.

[bananacat]

The lack of air conditioning is even worse than living in a third-world country. Places that don't routinely have A/C design their houses and sleeping structures to maximize cooling, and that can really make an amazing difference. But when you take a typical house that wasn't designed with that in mind and simply don't use A/C, it's much worse.

I used to live in an old stone house that was built before A/C was standard. We had window units for small, enclosed rooms, but we rarely needed to use them. The windows, roof material, shade trees, open layout, etc all kept it pretty cool. But in my modern apartment that I live in now that was designed with central air, it gets really hot really fast, especially because of the way the windows are facing (which I love because of all the light).

So just taking out the window units in that house without an other considerations is a lot worse than living in a society where A/C just isn't standard.

[Oddeverything]

The lack of air conditioning is even worse than living in a third-world country. Places that don't routinely have A/C design their houses and sleeping structures to maximize cooling, and that can really make an amazing difference. But when you take a typical house that wasn't designed with that in mind and simply don't use A/C, it's much worse.

I used to live in an old stone house that was built before A/C was standard. We had window units for small, enclosed rooms, but we rarely needed to use them. The windows, roof material, shade trees, open layout, etc all kept it pretty cool. But in my modern apartment that I live in now that was designed with central air, it gets really hot really fast, especially because of the way the windows are facing (which I love because of all the light).

So just taking out the window units in that house without an other considerations is a lot worse than living in a society where A/C just isn't standard.

And bear in mind those houses that were built specifically to be cooler and with air flow in mind were built in a time when it was cooler. Back when houses were built without A/C in mind, there was no massive highway system with heat-generating cars, asphalt radiating roads and heat-producing industries were just beginning to become ubiquitous.

I have lived in urban Texas my whole life and 30 years ago the breezes were cooler. I can remember that we didn't have to turn on our A/C until June in order to feel cool because the air was not as heavy, muggy and hot. Now we have to run it off and on throughout the winter. There is never a time when we go longer than a month without running the A/C in order to keep the house lower than 80 degrees F. The temperatures may not be significantly higher now than they were in the past, but the ambient air and wind just on an anecdotal basis are so much warmer that it doesn't really cool off in the summer until the wee morning hours. It's as if the roads just hold the heat in place. There is no relief from the heat in the summer if you are in an urban area unless you have a home with excellent cross ventilation or a house with A/C.

So even if Kim lived in a home built to beat the heat, it would still be hard to cool the house just because of the effects of modern life. Factor in 8 warm bodies into a tiny room built without ventilation in mind, and it must be hellishly hot. I guess if you are raised accustomed to such hardship it isn't as bad as if one has grown up with the most basic of creature comforts, but Kim should be ashamed at forcing her children to live that way in one of the hottest places in America.

[longskirtlotsakids]

Thanks for that link and the summary. I have wondered about this for a few years now. I have only met my cousin's daughter once and she was 15 at the time. My aunt and uncle were also concerned but I think they didn't voice their concerns because they feared the girl's mother would get mad at them and not them let them see her.

Those are federal guidelines for HUD housing, not rental housing, not privately owned houses, but houses funded by HUD. You are making the guidelines for HUD construction to be federal law of the land with criminal penalties.

Calling the closet bunker a "room" is a stretch. It's a sleeping nook. It's very common in Scandanavian cottages where they are not fundies, but rather, are taking advantage of the fact that a small space is easier to heat up with body heat than an entire room. There is no way that could be qualified as a room that requires a window for egress.

Can we stop with the "The little darlings didn't CHOOSE to be born into this lifestyle!" I didn't choose to be born into my parent's lifestyle. My kids didn't choose to be born into MY lifestyle. Who does?

Costco shelving? Blech. Yes, I agree that is a shitty way to raise kids. No, I don't think it's cute. But I'll save my outrage for those that deny their kids medical care and beat them, but bunk beds in a closet isn't going to raise my ire.

Also, you may want to consider cultural differences when snarking on number of people in a home. The whole single generation thing is mostly an American concept. Most other countries have a base of multigenerational living quarters.