Michelle Duggar’s Take on Time Outs

[Miggy]

Funny that the little kids are expected to behave so much older than their age but the adults are expected to behave like twelve year olds.

[FlorenceHamilton]

It is easy to look at the word "manipulative" in a totally negative way. The truth is that humans continually test ways to manipulate their environment. Throwing a tantrum is a behavior that is a poorly controlled attempt to manipulate the environment to stop the condition that is causing distress. As parents, our job is to help direct our children to appropriate behaviors to manipulate the environment.

[holothuroidea]

It is easy to look at the word "manipulative" in a totally negative way. The truth is that humans continually test ways to manipulate their environment. Throwing a tantrum is a behavior that is a poorly controlled attempt to manipulate the environment to stop the condition that is causing distress. As parents, our job is to help direct our children to appropriate behaviors to manipulate the environment.

I'm trying to address the thought process behind the "don't give in to the tantrum" mentality. A lot of parents believe that their children specifically know to manipulate a parent's emotions or purposefully embarrass them. If we are talking about children where tantrums are age appropriate, there is absolutely no way that they know the consequences of their actions on an adult's emotions.

[holothuroidea]

Funny that the little kids are expected to behave so much older than their age but the adults are expected to behave like twelve year olds.

Any time a fundy child puts himself in a position to learn something or have an honest negative emotion, he is beaten or coerced into submission. That this produces a society of pubescent-minded half-adults is pretty predictable.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

Oh my G-d, if one more person told me my son as a baby was being "manipulative" when he was an infant. PISSED ME OFF. Babies cannot manipulate. They do not have the reasoning to do so. They're either: Cold, tired, hungry, wet or poopy.

My pastor's wife told me my infant was being manipulative when my daughter was 2 weeks old. I had her (the baby) sleeping in the cot next to me so she could breast feed on demand and the Pastor's wife, Charlotte, told me that the baby was manipulating me by "demanding" to be fed in the middle of the night. That when her children were born they were brought home and put in a cot in the bedroom furthest away. When they were put to bed the very first night, the door was shut and the infant was allowed to cry all night. After a couple of nights the child "learned" to sleep through the night. She had 3 children.

It was the coldest thing I have ever heard and I still shudder to think this is how some women mother their babies. The idea of forcing a infant to sleep alone and hungry brings me to tears.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I still maintain that the only milestone that mattered to JB and Michelle was walking. As soon as they saw Josie could walk, she was "fine". Any other sort of developmental delay, especially anything intellectual, meant nothing to them.

The whole blowing kisses and smacking herself in the face is very disturbing to me. I realize she has some delays due to her prematurity, but when my daughter was 6 or 7 months old I used to ask her if she was a big girl, and she used to raise her hands in the air, and then clap until I clapped too. Even factoring in adjusted age, Josie is really far behind. For Michelle to even entertain the idea that she can reason with her to stop a tantrum is beyond ridiculous.

Hell, i have a friend who had a micropreemie born about the same gestational age as Josie, and he STILL has significant delays, despite his mom being and early childhood ed teacher, and working with him every day, AND putting him through EVERY SINGLE THERAPY they could find. Poor Josie.

[bananacat]

I have two issues with this:

1) I don't think it's right to coach emotions. Kids can feel angry if they want to. They can feel sad or happy or anything at all. It's their actions that matter. They can go right ahead feeling mad, but they still need to learn to behave properly when they feel that way. They need to learn how to deal with anger, not suppress it. They need to learn the correct outlets for it. I would never tell a kid to stop crying.

2) We all know this is a complete lie. If a kid cries, Michelle hits them. She doesn't do time-outs. She smacks and hits.

[AmyP]

I'm trying to address the thought process behind the "don't give in to the tantrum" mentality. A lot of parents believe that their children specifically know to manipulate a parent's emotions or purposefully embarrass them. If we are talking about children where tantrums are age appropriate, there is absolutely no way that they know the consequences of their actions on an adult's emotions.

"don't give in to the tantrum" is not a mentality. it is a reasonable, easy, approach to teaching children to express themselves in appropriate ways by rewarding "use of words" and not rewarding screaming, hitting, throwing oneself upon the floor, etc. If my child screams in anger every time I say no to cookies in the store, she is not trying to manipulate me. She is angry and frustrated. If I give her cookies every time she screams in the store I am teaching her to control her environment by screaming and throwing a fit. If I calmly sympathize with her frustration and keep on walking, I am letting her know that she can scream, or not, but my decision is the same. The tantrums are a developmental stage. When you realize that you really don't have to do anything about a tantrum, other than to put the child in a place where she cannot hurt herself, and avoid rewarding the behaviour with toys, food, or attention, it is enormously freeing to the parent. It becomes a loud, but temporary, disturbance in the day. For most (but not all) children, this approach also reduces the frequency and duration of the tantrum phase. After a while most toddlers seem to feel silly laying there on the living room floor screaming their heads off while the rest of the family calmly eats dinner and attempts to converse over the noise.

I also use a similar approach to whining in preschoolers. I do not reward whining. Preschoolers must learn to use their "big girl" voices.

[FlorenceHamilton]

My point was to take the ill-intent out of the word manipulation. A wise woman once told me that when evaluating a situation, one must always try to get to higher ground to see what is happening.

ma·nip·u·late/məˈnipyəˌlÄt/

Verb:

Handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner: "he manipulated the dials".

Alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer.

Our job as parents is to teach our children to manipulate the environment in a socially appropriate and effective manner. There is really nothing evil about it. When frustrated, they will use all of their tools (and they have limited tools) to try to relieve the frustration. From experience, they know that parents tend to repond to them when they display distress. So they display distress when they are frustrated. If we do not reward the display, then eventually, the child realizes that the display of distress in certain kinds of frustration is ineffective. If we then reward use of words or show of restraint (different behavior display), we have taught them to effectively manipulate the environment.

Manipulation does not carry a value judgement. It is another word that religious people have co-opted.

[marmalade]

Has anyone else seen a time-out timer on 19KAC? I don't recall ever seeing the Howler Monkeys in time-out...

Jackson got put in a "5 minutes in a chair" TO on the show. The second Mullet turned away, the kid wriggled off the chair inthe opposite direction, squeezing in the space between the seat and armrest.

[fakepigtails73]

I don't doubt that you were precocious, but that's actually an age appropriate reaction to finding a porn stash for a 7 year old.

I did the same thing with my Dad's Penthouse, Playboy and Hustler stash. Now I think back and feel bad for him, looking for his "reading material" (he actually told me he bought it for the articles-Playboy had great articles, Hustler and Penthouse? dubious, but hey I'm not an anti-porn prude) and being a newly separated single Dad of an 8 yr-old girl. :whistle:

At 8 his mags fascinated me, and I'm not bisexual at all; it was just a glimpse into the unknown. Just normal pre-puberty curiosity; many laughters came from me and my friends while perusing these. :o

[FlorenceHamilton]

I think that kids are often worried about the things that are hidden from them. That may be why it is common for kids to try to sabotage parental alone time and also to find secret stuff. Often, the content once found has a sexual component which is totally fascinating. Of course, it creates a motivation for the child to step up efforts to sabotage parent's attempts to be alone together or/and alone on their own.

[RR88]

My pastor's wife told me my infant was being manipulative when my daughter was 2 weeks old. I had her (the baby) sleeping in the cot next to me so she could breast feed on demand and the Pastor's wife, Charlotte, told me that the baby was manipulating me by "demanding" to be fed in the middle of the night. That when her children were born they were brought home and put in a cot in the bedroom furthest away. When they were put to bed the very first night, the door was shut and the infant was allowed to cry all night. After a couple of nights the child "learned" to sleep through the night. She had 3 children.

It was the coldest thing I have ever heard and I still shudder to think this is how some women mother their babies. The idea of forcing a infant to sleep alone and hungry brings me to tears.

That's pretty awful. Tiny kids are hungry or uncomfortable when they cry. When my newborn nephew begins to wail, I see if I can comfort him. If not, I let his parents feed him. Kids that little don't have the capacity to be bratty or manipulative, and ignoring a screaming newborn is essentially starving him during the night.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

That's pretty awful. Tiny kids are hungry or uncomfortable when they cry. When my newborn nephew begins to wail, I see if I can comfort him. If not, I let his parents feed him. Kids that little don't have the capacity to be bratty or manipulative, and ignoring a screaming newborn is essentially starving him during the night.

The sound of a screaming kid drives me INSANE when there is no escape for it. I imagine this kind of action on the parent's part creates a lot of resentment that turns into physical and other kinds of abuse later.

[CynicMom]

Not to mention the idea of using book reading as a PUNISHMENT is..... well it's a good way to ensure that your kids hate reading. I mean, what the hell?!

[Daisy]

ITA Parents should try to instill a love of reading in their children, reading should not be thought of as punishment.

[tropaka]

I think it's a pretty fluffy piece and we're all reading way more into it because we know what Michelle is really like (i.e. not really parenting all the kids - she NEEDS the older girls to help). Not giving into tantrums is a pretty basic thing (unless it's for a need instead of a want - kids can't handle disappointment/frustration and need to learn to deal with these emotions in other ways than throwing a fit). The only thing that gets me is the reading a book as part of a time-out - the kids will associate reading with punishment, as CynicMom said above.

Anyone who leaves a newborn (or any kid under 3 or 4 months) to cry it out is abuse and totally ignorant. Who the hell was giving that Pastor's wife advice (sure wasn't a doctor).

[2xx1xy1JD]

Depends on the situation. If my 2 year old is screaming and throwing herself around becuase I turned off the TV, or took something away, I just calmly express my sympathy with her frustration and I tell her that we are all done with whatever. With my eldest two I could re-direct them at this point. My youngest just gets angrier when I try to re-direct her so I usually just walk away. Mostly, after I express sympathy with her situation, I cheerfully proceed with whatever I am planning to do next. If she becomes uncontrollable in a public place we leave if at all possible, but always calmly and without fuss. When I bring her in from the yard she kicks and screams, but I just carry her in, sympathize with her, and move on. I never let her stay longer in the yard, I don't turn the TV back on or give her the toy or treat that she wants, put her back in the bath, etc., if she is screaming and throwing a fit in order to get it. Sometimes, if she just has a sudden burst of frustration, but is not out of control I will model for her how to ask nicely, or say please, without screaming. She is fairly verbal so she can repeat if asked to, and then I grant her appropriately expressed desire. I think that about covers it.

I think there's a difference between a tantrum and a meltdown.

Kids get meltdowns when they are hungry or tired or sick or over-stimulated, and go bonkers without a whole lot of rhyme or reason. You just need to get them fed and watered and put to bed as quickly as possible at that point.

Tantrums, OTOH, happen when a kid who was perfectly fine gets frustrated because they heard the word NO, or otherwise have had someone or something Thwart Their Will. The first few times it happens, the tot is responding to genuine frustration. However, if throwing the tantrum is rewarded by the child getting what they want, and if the parents often don't respond until the child is screaming, then the parents are teaching the child that polite requests will be ignored and that if they really want something, they will need to throw a fit.

If my child wanted something reasonable but was on the verge of a tantrum, I'd try to get them to calm down and ask me in a calm voice, with a please.

[argypargy]

"don't give in to the tantrum" is not a mentality. it is a reasonable, easy, approach to teaching children to express themselves in appropriate ways by rewarding "use of words" and not rewarding screaming, hitting, throwing oneself upon the floor, etc. If my child screams in anger every time I say no to cookies in the store, she is not trying to manipulate me. She is angry and frustrated. If I give her cookies every time she screams in the store I am teaching her to control her environment by screaming and throwing a fit. If I calmly sympathize with her frustration and keep on walking, I am letting her know that she can scream, or not, but my decision is the same. The tantrums are a developmental stage. When you realize that you really don't have to do anything about a tantrum, other than to put the child in a place where she cannot hurt herself, and avoid rewarding the behaviour with toys, food, or attention, it is enormously freeing to the parent. It becomes a loud, but temporary, disturbance in the day. For most (but not all) children, this approach also reduces the frequency and duration of the tantrum phase. After a while most toddlers seem to feel silly laying there on the living room floor screaming their heads off while the rest of the family calmly eats dinner and attempts to converse over the noise.

I also use a similar approach to whining in preschoolers. I do not reward whining. Preschoolers must learn to use their "big girl" voices.

This is exactly what we do with our 21 month old. If he wants something I will allow him to have, I encourage him to use his words like "please" rather than whining for it. If it's something he can't have or do, I stay calm and say "I know you want , but we're not having that right now" and calmly keep walking or doing what I was doing.

ETA: We will do a lot of redirection, too. "No, we can't watch Thomas right now, but how about playing with these cars"

[Mela99]

My pastor's wife told me my infant was being manipulative when my daughter was 2 weeks old. I had her (the baby) sleeping in the cot next to me so she could breast feed on demand and the Pastor's wife, Charlotte, told me that the baby was manipulating me by "demanding" to be fed in the middle of the night. That when her children were born they were brought home and put in a cot in the bedroom furthest away. When they were put to bed the very first night, the door was shut and the infant was allowed to cry all night. After a couple of nights the child "learned" to sleep through the night. She had 3 children.

It was the coldest thing I have ever heard and I still shudder to think this is how some women mother their babies. The idea of forcing a infant to sleep alone and hungry brings me to tears.

Three children that lived and grew up healthy??? Babies NEED to bed fed continuously so they can grow. That's just sick and stupid. I hope you told her to take a long walk off a short pier and hug an octopus.

[Elle]

I was a very very manipulative child-My parents were not going to win.I would scream all night or beg/whine/cry until she gave in to get my way.And I always won because she would get no peace and I would not let my parents be alone together because i knew that's what they wanted. Spanking nor reasoning or time out did not work.This was when i was 5 or 6.

I think kids at a young age do try to manipulate, but it's a part of trying to figure out limits and what they can do. Not all manipulation is bad either. When a parent tries to sway a child into doing something, like take a bath, that's a form of manipulation, of controlling a situation without physical force, and it's not bad. Of course we usually hear of negative manipulation.

Anyway were you manipulative or stubborn? I was stubborn and sometimes I didn't want to lose a fight, but wasn't what I would consider to be manipulative.

[Elle]

Oh my G-d, if one more person told me my son as a baby was being "manipulative" when he was an infant. PISSED ME OFF. Babies cannot manipulate. They do not have the reasoning to do so. They're either: Cold, tired, hungry, wet or poopy.

My toddler tries sometimes, but at her age, it's a normal part of development, of learning cause and effect, what she can get away with what control she has in various situations. As an infant, nope. Nope possible for someone so young they only know how to respond to things and are starting to learn than a whimper of a cry will result in a feeding or whatever. As little infants, they just don't yet have the ability to reason. That's a skill that sets in a bit later. And yes, toddlers can learn to reason, usually through trying. My little girl loves to pretend to sleep since usually when she sleeps, we'll sneak out of the room to leave her in peace. We know she's faking because she fake-snores, which is hilarious, and she'll open her eyes to look at us to see if we're still there, then snore. But it's funny. And it ends up a contest between me and her daddy. Who can hold back on laughing the longest? When one laughs, the other does, and she'll start laughing too. It's good times I cherish. :)

[tabitha2]

Considering it, Manipulating is the wrong word. I was acting out because other things happened and i could not tell my mother about them but i was also spoiled and stubborn and insecure.I had problems that no adult around me was in position to help me with and i knew it-even at 6 or 7 i knew they were all fucked up in various ways.I also knew none if it was my fault.

[Elle]

So do they have some fundie agrument against feeling anger? Anger is human. It's normal. It's healthy in small does. Jesus himself got angry.

Orrrr is this really just a control thing?

The only acceptable feeling is happiness. Anger means you're sinning, and so it's not allowed. If you follow your father's commands, then you have no reason to be anything but happy. Michael Pearl specifically teaches to whip your kids with plumbing pipe and to keep it up, even if you have to hold them down by sitting on them, until their bad attitude is broken and they're joyful. Basically mentally break your kid if they're not showing happiness all the time.

When you look at the older Duggar girls, you'll notice they're always smiling with their mouths, but sometimes their eyes just look dead. The smile is a mask they've been trained from birth to wear. Even at Jubilee's funeral they had on the exact same smiles, and we all know that no one was really happy that day. But showing any emotion other than happiness isn't allowed. Even at your sister's funeral. No sadness. SMILE.

[holothuroidea]

Toddlers and pre-schoolers understand cause and effect as it relates to them. They have no clue how their behavior affects their parents, or how it makes them feel. To say that they are manipulative is completely unfair.

I guess you can argue the definition of "manipulative" all you want, but generally when we talk about people being manipulative towards other people it involves controlling someone's emotions to get your way regardless of how it makes them feel. Toddlers and pre-schoolers are not capable of that.