Michelle Duggar’s Take on Time Outs

[Elle]

I find the most interesting part to be this line "I don't want my children to feel angry." On the surface, it's innocuous but becomes a little more sinister when coupled with the Duggars' belief in "keeping sweet". Both children and adults sometimes feel angry. That is not a bad thing. It's normal and, in a lot of cases, it's justified (such as when you realize your parents have denied you the education and skills necessary to live a productive life outside the tiny bubble of the cult you were raised in)

Yeah, no parent wants their children to fee angry, but it's going to happen. It's important to teach our children how to deal with how they feel instead of telling them to hide it behind a false smile.

[Elle]

Another issue I have is with this:

The idea is that they think, "Wow, I feel good about myself now. I've obeyed Mommy. I've sat here for 15 minutes, read this book, calmed down, didn't have to get in trouble, but actually sat and looked at a book for 15 minutes. And now I can get up and go do something else."

"Wow, I feel good about myself because I obeyed!" Should self-esteem come from the ability to obey? Should their accomplishments be tied to doing as they're ordered?

I also get a feeling that they don't realize Josie is not at the same developmental age as other children born the same day she was. She had to finish her gestational development outside the womb, and on top of that, micro-preemies are likely to have other developmental delays, and these don't always clearly show themselves until later. When in a family that seems to think all's perfect and delays don't happen, I think she's probably expected to be the exact same as her siblings were at her chronological age, and that's got to be hard for her to not get the individual assistance she needs.

I can't stand the comments on those articles, full of ass-kissing and adoration by people who don't realize her daughters are the mothers in the household denied any real education and that one-on-one time has to be scheduled in advance and isn't guaranteed.

[acheronbeach]

Not snarking, but legitimately curious - is there any evidence of Michelle using corporal punishment? I strongly suspect it, since she's a fundie, but I can't think of anything she's said/done on the show to support it.

[Elle]

This so hard.

I have a 2 year old and tantrum translates from toddler to adult 50% of the time as "I'm having trouble communicating, I'm little and I just don't know the rules yet". And "I'm: tired, hungry, uncomfortable,..." the other 50%. How about Mullet, if you Redirected your child? "Josiah is riding the bike, here let's play with *insert name of toy here*" oh wait, that'd mean you would have to interact at length with them. My bad.

My daughter's the same age and her tantrums are just as likely to be because I won't let her toss rice on the floor, which she knows isn't allowed and will actually look around to see if I'm looking at her. Sometimes her tantrums are because she's just plain tired, but sometimes she doesn't know how to say what she wants, but sometimes they're because she's not allowed to do something she knows she's not allowed to do but wants to anyway and she's not allowed to. It depends on why she's having a tantrum for how I'll handle it. If she is trying to communicate, I'll help her figure it out. If she's tired, and we're home, she'll grab my hand and drag me to bed. Yes, I'm lucky. My child doesn't fight sleepy time. But if we're in public and she starts a random tantrum because she's tired, I'll wrap up what I'm doing and take her to the car. If we're close to home, we'll go home so she can nap. If we're far from home and have somewhere else to go, I'll drive there, she'll fall asleep, and I'll BS around on my phone until she wakes up. If she pitches a fit over not getting candy or a toy in a store or because she wants to do something she KNOWS she's not allowed to do, those are when I don't budge.

I wonder what Michelle does if a child starts randomly tantruming, if she figure out they're tired and puts them to bed, or "doesn't give in" and ignores them. I think we all know she probably ignores them if it's not immediately apparent that a kid just wants a toy.

[Elle]

Not snarking, but legitimately curious - is there any evidence of Michelle using corporal punishment? I strongly suspect it, since she's a fundie, but I can't think of anything she's said/done on the show to support it.

The Duggars website promotes the Peals' book that's all about whipping kids, and a member of this forum used to be on another forum with Michelle pre-fame and she openly advocated using plastic rulers when blanket-training. But once fame started, the forum was scrubbed of those comments.

At this point, when the cameras are rolling, they're less likely to be doing anything. Even among people who spank kids, there's a line at using anything other than a hand on a bottom, and using a pipe or a ruler on bare skin crosses it. Since spanking at all is controversial, and their lifestyle is controversial enough, I don't think they'd want to be overt about using any corporal punishment. Their image has been closely protected. Even when Michelle's giving speakings, only once has a camera's shot of what a hand-out said made it to the screen (it was the "a wife needs to tolerate her husband's abuses of her" page). TLC knows too that they need to protect the image of their cash cow unless they want to either drive viewers away, or are ready to make a last-ditch effort in a final season to draw in viewers the last episodes. Few people are comfortable watching a child be disciplined, even if discipline means nothing more than a time-out. So all we'll see is the occasional shot of Michelle using her saccharine voice to pseudo-chastise a child in a way viewers are supposed to think is so cute and so calm that it results in kids who look perfect until you take the rose-colored glasses off and realize that only the best is going to be shown, and that the best still has enough rowdiness in it for some of the kids to be collectively referred to as the howlers.

[thoughtful]

Not snarking, but legitimately curious - is there any evidence of Michelle using corporal punishment? I strongly suspect it, since she's a fundie, but I can't think of anything she's said/done on the show to support it.

I think they/she carefully avoid it on the show, but there have been a few hints. Their Amazon Blitz sale from last year included recommending the Pearls' materials (scroll down and look on the right):

http://www.duggarfamily.com/content/amazon_blitz

ETA: I was just browsing on that page, and found a link to an anti-human-trafficking site.

It's nice that the Duggars support such efforts, but does this list of red flags seem a bit ironic to anyone (bolding mine)?

Know the Red Flags

Some indicators raise a red flag that a person may be a victim of human trafficking. Take notice in situations where a person

Appears to be under someone else’s control.

Seems to be under surveillance at all times.

All or most contacts with family, friends, and professionals are controlled and monitored.

Does not manage their own money or money is largely controlled by someone else.

Is not in control of their own identification or travel documents.

Works excessive hours.

Is unpaid for their work or paid very little. Live with multiple people in a very cramped space.

Lives with their employer.

Has little/no English language skills or knowledge of the local community.

Appears to have little privacy or are rarely alone.

Has visible injuries or scars, such as cuts, bruises, or burns.

May have injuries around the head, face, and mouth from being struck in the head or face. (Sex slaves’ scars tend to be hidden, as on the lower back).

Has untreated illnesses or infections. Examples: Diabetes, cancer, TB.

May have general poor health and/or diseases associated with unsanitary living conditions.

Has STDs, HIV/Aids, pelvic pain/inflammation, rectal trauma, urinary

difficulties, abdominal or genital trauma.

Uses drugs – victims are often given drugs to keep them dependent.

Exhibits submissive behavior or fearful behavior in the presence of others.

Exhibits emotional distress such as depression, anxiety, panic attacks, confusion, phobias, disorientation, self-inflicted injuries or suicide attempts.

Engages in prostitution or living in a brothel.

Is sexually exploited in strip clubs, massage parlors, pornography.

Is branded with a tattoo of a man’s name or “Daddy.â€

Exhibits feelings of helplessness, shame, humiliation, shock, denial or disbelief.

Is pregnant as a result of rape or prostitution.

Additionally, if a minor

Talks about an older boyfriend or sex with an older man/boyfriend.

Uses words associated with the commercial sex industry.

Hangs around commercial sex businesses like strip clubs, massage parlors, adult book/video stores.

Has stunted growth, or poorly formed or rotting teeth.

[Sola]

Liar, liar pants on fire.

Does she really expect us to believe that a 2 year old, a developmentally delayed two year old, will be able to rationally understand and process J'chelle saying;

"Josie, it's okay. You don't have to cry. You don't have to scream and throw a fit. Stand up and let Mommy show you how to carry your stroller upstairs."

No way, no how.

I don't think for a minute she left the plumbing line alone when she hit fame and fortune.

[samithemage]

I heard this on NPR awhile ago (http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/12 ... he-screams) and found it interesting. I was a nanny for several years (much different from being a mom, I know) and I dealt with a lot of tantrums. I learned pretty quickly that most tantrums went away much more quickly if I just ignored them (while keeping an eye on the kiddo to make sure they weren't hurting themselves or others). I tried to always intervene and distract before the tantrum started, but that didn't always happen, and once they got to that incoherent state, it seemed to help to them get past the anger if I let them be angry and "get it out of their system". Then we would have cuddles and talk about why they were so mad and talk about different ways to deal with the situation (tailored to the age of the child of course). If they were tantruming about the loss of a privilege/object or because they couldn't have something right then, they never got it right then or right after, but we talked about how it's ok to be angry or sad when we can't have something right away. I tried to never belittle their feelings, but not give in to unreasonable demands.

[Fundilicious]

I call BS. Sure she might do this now with the younger kids because she doesn't care to parent anymore, but there is no way those older kids don't tow the line that hard without corporal (or any sort-of) punishment involved.Those children (especially in the earlier specials) look like they have had their wills beaten from them.

[AmyP]

Amy how do you deal with tantrums?

Depends on the situation. If my 2 year old is screaming and throwing herself around becuase I turned off the TV, or took something away, I just calmly express my sympathy with her frustration and I tell her that we are all done with whatever. With my eldest two I could re-direct them at this point. My youngest just gets angrier when I try to re-direct her so I usually just walk away. Mostly, after I express sympathy with her situation, I cheerfully proceed with whatever I am planning to do next. If she becomes uncontrollable in a public place we leave if at all possible, but always calmly and without fuss. When I bring her in from the yard she kicks and screams, but I just carry her in, sympathize with her, and move on. I never let her stay longer in the yard, I don't turn the TV back on or give her the toy or treat that she wants, put her back in the bath, etc., if she is screaming and throwing a fit in order to get it. Sometimes, if she just has a sudden burst of frustration, but is not out of control I will model for her how to ask nicely, or say please, without screaming. She is fairly verbal so she can repeat if asked to, and then I grant her appropriately expressed desire. I think that about covers it.

[tabitha2]

From the child's perspective, they are not having a tantrum to manipulate you or get their way

I was a very very manipulative child-My parents were not going to win.I would scream all night or beg/whine/cry until she gave in to get my way.And I always won because she would get no peace and I would not let my parents be alone together because i knew that's what they wanted. Spanking nor reasoning or time out did not work.This was when i was 5 or 6.

[holothuroidea]

I was a very very manipulative child-My parents were not going to win.I would scream all night or beg/whine/cry until she gave in to get my way.And I always won because she would get no peace and I would not let my parents be alone together because i knew that's what they wanted. Spanking nor reasoning or time out did not work.This was when i was 5 or 6.

I just want to put up one idea for consideration. Children of that age generally believe everything their parents say is absolute truth and at 5 years old our parents write the scripts of our lives for us. If a child's parents lead them to believe that they are manipulative and out to get their way no matter what, they might internalize that as a part of their 5-year old identity even though a 5 year old is not emotionally or mentally capable of manipulation. It doesn't take any outright effort on the parent's part, because 5 year olds are excellent at picking up very subtle cues, all they had to do was believe it.

The "manipulative babies/children" idea is very prevalent but it is based only perception on the parent's part, and children will internalize their parents perceptions of themselves at that age.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I just want to put up one idea for consideration. Children of that age generally believe everything their parents say is absolute truth and at 5 years old our parents write the scripts of our lives for us. If a child's parents lead them to believe that they are manipulative and out to get their way no matter what, they might internalize that as a part of their 5-year old identity even though a 5 year old is not emotionally or mentally capable of manipulation. It doesn't take any outright effort on the parent's part, because 5 year olds are excellent at picking up very subtle cues, all they had to do was believe it.

The "manipulative babies/children" idea is very prevalent but it is based only perception on the parent's part, and children will internalize their parents perceptions of themselves at that age.

Oh my G-d, if one more person told me my son as a baby was being "manipulative" when he was an infant. PISSED ME OFF. Babies cannot manipulate. They do not have the reasoning to do so. They're either: Cold, tired, hungry, wet or poopy.

[Coconut Flan]

I'd only add bored to that list. Sometimes they need a change of scenary or position.

[tabitha2]

If a child's parents lead them to believe that they are manipulative and out to get their way no matter

You don't understand...I was out to get my way no matter what.If I wanted something, I was going to have it.I either did not care what they said or saw beyond the efforts to thwart me. I was a very precocious child-I stole my fathers porn magazines when i was 6 or 7 and hid them from my mother and me and some friends looked at them while smoking a bubble blowing pipe pretending it was real.

[AmyP]

I'd only add bored to that list. Sometimes they need a change of scenary or position.

I would add angry. I had a baby who got angry, and she has a terrible temper to this day.

[samithemage]

I very specifically remember at about 6 years old, knowing that if I kept begging I would get the stuffed bear I wanted. (He was dark brown and soft and fuzzy, and I remember later giving him a "haircut" to trim down his ear hair.) I remember begging for their bear while specifically thinking that if I kept begging long enough, she would give in. It was around this same, that I also remember hating stuffing and knowing that if I held out long enough I'd never have to eat it again, so I don't buy the idea that kids, at least by 4-6, don't realize they are manipulating their parents. I remember watching a little boy who was 10 months old. When I would make lunch, he would stay away from electrical cords, because he knew he was supposed to leave them alone, but if I left him alone the temptation would become too great, and he would head for them. All it would take was for me to turn my head around the corner from the kitchen to the family room and say "uhoh!" and he would immediately shift his direction away from the cords and to a toy he knew he could play with. From the time he considered moving, I would say "uhoh" and move him away from dangerous things, and by the time he was 10 months old, he knew he shouldn't touch them, but knew to test me. I would often poke my head around the corner to find him looking back to see if I had noticed him going for the cords. He always had a huge grin, and would crawl off in the opposite direction. This doesn't mean that all little one's are trying to manipulate you, but kids often understand more that their parents give them credit for.

[holothuroidea]

You don't understand...I was out to get my way no matter what.If I wanted something, I was going to have it.I either did not care what they said or saw beyond the efforts to thwart me. I was a very precocious child-I stole my fathers porn magazines when i was 6 or 7 and hid them from my mother and me and some friends looked at them while smoking a bubble blowing pipe pretending it was real.

I don't doubt that you were precocious, but that's actually an age appropriate reaction to finding a porn stash for a 7 year old.

[Feberin]

We use time out quite a bit with my son. He's two and responds well to having a time out. He even does these yoga like stretches in time out and it calms him down faster then anything else. I think he gets less angry with me sitting in time out then he would if I went after him with plumbing line. I love how Michelle talks a lot about what she doesn't do but skirts around the actual discipline she is doing.

[tabitha2]

I knew exactly what sex was though and how everything worked and found it all very enthralling.

[Witsec7]

The vehicles aren't even detailed, to give the cosmetic appearance they have been cared for.

[holothuroidea]

I very specifically remember at about 6 years old, knowing that if I kept begging I would get the stuffed bear I wanted. (He was dark brown and soft and fuzzy, and I remember later giving him a "haircut" to trim down his ear hair.) I remember begging for their bear while specifically thinking that if I kept begging long enough, she would give in. It was around this same, that I also remember hating stuffing and knowing that if I held out long enough I'd never have to eat it again, so I don't buy the idea that kids, at least by 4-6, don't realize they are manipulating their parents. I remember watching a little boy who was 10 months old. When I would make lunch, he would stay away from electrical cords, because he knew he was supposed to leave them alone, but if I left him alone the temptation would become too great, and he would head for them. All it would take was for me to turn my head around the corner from the kitchen to the family room and say "uhoh!" and he would immediately shift his direction away from the cords and to a toy he knew he could play with. From the time he considered moving, I would say "uhoh" and move him away from dangerous things, and by the time he was 10 months old, he knew he shouldn't touch them, but knew to test me. I would often poke my head around the corner to find him looking back to see if I had noticed him going for the cords. He always had a huge grin, and would crawl off in the opposite direction. This doesn't mean that all little one's are trying to manipulate you, but kids often understand more that their parents give them credit for.

Knowing that a specific behavior will produce a desired outcome and using that behavior to get the outcome you want is not a manipulative tactic. It's merely using a cause and effect relationship to your advantage, which children ages 4-6 do understand. At age 4-6 you had no idea what emotions your behavior caused in your parents.

Young toddlers love to play cause-and-effect games, because their concept of it is just developing. If you preform a certain behavior every time he does something and he makes the connection that you are reliable in your reaction, he's going to think it is great fun to test his new theory over and over again. A 10 month old doesn't understand that an electrical cord is unsafe, but if you're not around to produce the reaction he has no reason to preform the behavior.

[3 is enough]

I still maintain that the only milestone that mattered to JB and Michelle was walking. As soon as they saw Josie could walk, she was "fine". Any other sort of developmental delay, especially anything intellectual, meant nothing to them.

The whole blowing kisses and smacking herself in the face is very disturbing to me. I realize she has some delays due to her prematurity, but when my daughter was 6 or 7 months old I used to ask her if she was a big girl, and she used to raise her hands in the air, and then clap until I clapped too. Even factoring in adjusted age, Josie is really far behind. For Michelle to even entertain the idea that she can reason with her to stop a tantrum is beyond ridiculous.

[Want More Babies]

I really wish fundies would really think about how they treat their children. So often, they expect better behavior from little children than they do of themselves.

I really enjoy this article on tantrums and I try to parent this way. Of course, it takes work parenting like this, which we all know, Michelle isn't about to do.

http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tantrum.html

[Mela99]

So do they have some fundie agrument against feeling anger? Anger is human. It's normal. It's healthy in small does. Jesus himself got angry.

Orrrr is this really just a control thing?