Why do fundies idealise Little Women so much

[ladypuglover]

Laura Ingalls are good books but I prefer Caddy Woodlawn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caddie_Woodlawn She was more like me as a kid. :whistle: That and the Great Brain series http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Brain. I connected to stories where the kids were meaning to be good but still fell short of the goal. Just like me. :D

I have been wanting to see if anyone would be interested in a FJ book club. You don't have to opt in every book but it would be so cool to have one. :D :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :D

[ilovetchotchkes]

Laura Ingalls are good books but I prefer Caddy Woodlawn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caddie_Woodlawn She was more like me as a kid. :whistle: That and the Great Brain series http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Brain. I connected to stories where the kids were meaning to be good but still fell short of the goal. Just like me. :D

I have been wanting to see if anyone would be interested in a FJ book club. You don't have to opt in every book but it would be so cool to have one. :D :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :D

Oh Caddy Woodlawn! i loved her !!!!

I had a huge "pioneer" phase as a kid. And it evolved into a Civil War reenacting habit as an adult. :D

[hoipolloi]

Fundies have very poor reading comprehension. Add to that their proof-texting approach to literature in general, and no wonder they miss the point most of the time, whether it's the Bible or LM Alcott.

[Elle]

I think maybe Anne's feminism is too obvious. She's much too free-spririted from the very begining of the books. It's not something you could ignore, though I could see how you could ignore those same things in Little Women. They also probably hate how disobedient and imaginative Anne is. Things they'd never want in their daughters and things that couldn't explain away. Also I don't think there's a Beth-like character they could focus on.

But Anne also really tried her best to be obedient. She had an independent spirit and a stubbornness that she consciously used to try to be a better student and to do as was asked of her and she absolutely adored the preacher's wife, Mrs. Allen. When Mrs. Barry forbade Diana and Anne from being friends, while she was heartbroken, she didn't try to circumnavigate the order. She fell off the roof and saw that as her punishment for doing as she knew she shouldn't have. She was disobedient, but she learned and tried her best to not repeat the mistake. She even said that a good thing about her is she never did the same bad thing twice! True, she held a job for a while, but it was of the domestic sort, teaching. I think Anne is the opposite of a feminist.

But the March women were the very opposite, especially Jo! Jo was practically a boy!

[Elle]

I know they love that series. But Laura got a job, Mary went to school, etc...

Laura and Almanzo took many long sleigh-rides unchaperoned...

[Elle]

I wonder also whether or not they would read Cheaper by the Dozen or All of a Kind Family. CBTD is non-fiction about a large family but the parents are PhDs and Mom works as an industrial engineer. AofaKF is about a more "traditional" family but they are Jewish and live in an urban environment... I'm betting the humanization of non-Christian people would be a no-no.

Have you seen the movie CBTD? The original. Excellent movie, but the ending kind of hits you in the gut.

Mom's on the phone with Dad and he's at the station, but then the line goes dead and she keeps asking, "Hello? Hello? Are you there?" and it turns out he died. THe next, and last, scene is the family figuring out how they're going to get by.

[Elle]

I've only read The First Four Years once... I prefer just to stop at These Happy Golden Years. I've read some of her later writings, and she and Almanzo seemed happy but yes... depressing depressing depressing.

This book was published many years posthumously. I'm not sure it was intended to be published. She and Al really had everything that could go wrong go wrong for them. It's really sad.

I visited the home where they died, and it was like a religious experience.

[Elle]

POLLYANNA!

We had some very snarky discussion of Elsie Dinsmore a while back-They really love that.

Both Pollyanna books. In the second, Jimmy thought his adoptive father, Mr. Pendergrass (the crotchety old guy in the movie who adopts him), had the hots for Pollyanna, and despite his own feelings for her, stepped aside to let Mr. P. have her. But then it turned out Mr. P. had someone else in mind, so Jimmy proposed to Pollyanna. Even spinster Aunt Polly married the doctor and was properly lost after he died. I don't think there was a single thing in those books that wouldn't be fundy-approved. Even Pollyanna's accident was being hit by a car crossing the road instead of being the result of a forbidden evening of fun.

Elsie Dinsmore. That book is a good drinking game. Every time Elsie cries, take a shot. Or every time someone starts tearing up about how wonderful Jeebus is (that book is Racist with a capital R and has the slaves speaking in really bad accents that are spelled out), take a shot. Or any time Elsie starts in on her persecution complex, take a shot. You'll be passed out by the end of the first chapter. If you take a shot after all three of those, you'll be dead the first two pages. The opening to every single chapter are verses and quotes about the bible.

I think the first Elsie book would be great for a book club. It's just so awful!!

[Maul the Koala]

I've only read The First Four Years once... I prefer just to stop at These Happy Golden Years. I've read some of her later writings, and she and Almanzo seemed happy but yes... depressing depressing depressing.

I believe The First Four Years wasn't meant to be published as a part of the Little House series, it was just a first draft that had never been touched again. It was just after Rose Wilder Lane's death (Laura and Almanzo's daughter) that her heir found it and published it. The more I read the Little House books, the more I suspect that a lot of the feminist overtones came from Rose's editing. Rose was definitely a woman ahead of her time. That's just my gut feeling though, there's a lot of research and disagreement on the topic about how much influence Rose had on the books.

[LucySnowe]

For anyone who loved the Little House books but would like a more grown-up take on the hardships of pioneer life, check out some of Rose's own fiction. It's been a while since I read them, but I recall at least one episode that was a duplicate of something in the LH books - the kids wandering out and nearly freezing to death? - but with a much more realistic and awful result.

[Tanaqui]

Elsie Dinsmore. That book is a good drinking game. Every time Elsie cries, take a shot. Or every time someone starts tearing up about how wonderful Jeebus is (that book is Racist with a capital R and has the slaves speaking in really bad accents that are spelled out), take a shot. Or any time Elsie starts in on her persecution complex, take a shot. You'll be passed out by the end of the first chapter. If you take a shot after all three of those, you'll be dead the first two pages. The opening to every single chapter are verses and quotes about the bible.

I think the first Elsie book would be great for a book club. It's just so awful!!

I downloaded those from Project Gutenberg a while back and after the first few I started cutting out all the Jebus crap. It made them much more bearable and a lot shorter. :D Though if you did that with the first book, there would be nothing left.

[latraviata]

I will admit to not having finished this book (although I have seen the film) but I'm confused as to what makes it so attractive to them...

1. The older girls (Jo & Meg) have jobs and therefore earn their own money, bringing a level of independence and getting them out of the house on a daily basis.

2. The youngest (Amy) goes to a school and is therefore not educated by her mother, who also appears to have some sort of employment...

3. They are an entirely female house and hence not subject to any kind of male authority.

4. The older girls speak and spend time with Laurie without a chaperone and refer to him as a 'friend'.

5. Jo is a tomboy and tries as much as possible not to conform to the gender ideals of her society, and her father/Laurie accept this as just being her personality.

6. Jo actually ends up with a proper career, living independently of her parents and male authority.

7. Amy is very vain and obsessed with her appearance throughout, not exactly extolling the virtue of modesty.

8. Although they are Christian by virtue of their location and background, God and Religion do not seem to be central to their lives.

There is also the fact that on reading about this novel, a lot of sources refer to LMA as being an early feminist, and her portrayal of Meg's misery in being at home is said to be a rejection of the idea that a stay-at-home, subservient wife would be a happy individual.

So why on earth is this book a fundy dream?

Example of a fawning post: onebrightcorner.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/little-women.html

Costumes, the 'appealing titles' I suppose. There is a preference for Jane Austin as well. I suppose they really have no clue.

[luckystone]

It was one of my favorites when I was young, but I identified more with the headstrong, take-shit-from-no-one Laura Ingalls.

OMG. Laura is awesome. I'm not from America but I'm hoping to do a big trip in the next year or two, and one of the things I really want to see are all the places she lived and any museums etc. I loved those books so much! And her character was awesome and so gender-rebellious in so many ways. I was actually thinking recently how her life was less restrictive than for a lot of fundies. She was allowed a job (albeit teaching), and she spent time alone with her husband before they were married (when they were just courting), and there was a lot of other unchaperoned flirting and courting going on between the girls and boys (which was considered normal). It's funny how fundies are even more restrictive than those.

I think everyone else has summed up while "Little Women" is liked even though in a lot of ways it's feminist. I always thought it was kinda subtle, but then I read it when I was quite young and haven't looked at it since.

[roddma]

From what I read in the new book, the Duggar kids aren't allowed to read romance novels because it may feed them wrong ideas. I doubt if any of them as read 'Little Women.' They do list the list House books in the resource section of the 20 and Counting book.

[jenny_islander]

Somewhere on the Web, somebody is doing a close reading of the Elsie Dinsmore series that shows just what a horrible man her father is. He's the patriarchal ideal. Eventually Elsie does not have a single thought in her head that he did not script for her. She apologizes for showing any emotion or evincing any need that inconveniences him in the slightest. And she serves him and adores him and cuddles him just like an ideal submissive wife, in every way except sexually.

The reviewer argues that the author was attempting to work through her own screwed-up relationship with her domineering, boundary-trampling, manipulative father. She has posted reviews of the ED series from the time of publication, BTW, and they are by and large unfavorable. So much for the ideal society of bygone days.

If I get the chance, I'll dig up the link to the review site.

[Loveday]

Laura and Almanzo took many long sleigh-rides unchaperoned...

You know, in all the years I've known and loved the Little House books (started reading them when I was about six, and still pick one up to read now and then even in my 50s), I never thought about this til now. :lol:

This book was published many years posthumously. I'm not sure it was intended to be published. She and Al really had everything that could go wrong go wrong for them. It's really sad.

I recently re-read this one after not having read it for years and years, and just felt so awful for them by the time I was finished with it. Nothing went right. Just...nothing. :cry:

I visited the home where they died, and it was like a religious experience.

OMG. Laura is awesome. I'm not from America but I'm hoping to do a big trip in the next year or two, and one of the things I really want to see are all the places she lived and any museums etc. I loved those books so much! And her character was awesome and so gender-rebellious in so many ways. I was actually thinking recently how her life was less restrictive than for a lot of fundies. She was allowed a job (albeit teaching), and she spent time alone with her husband before they were married (when they were just courting), and there was a lot of other unchaperoned flirting and courting going on between the girls and boys (which was considered normal). It's funny how fundies are even more restrictive than those.

Visiting all of Laura's homes has always been at the top of my bucket list. I want to see it all, whether it's reconstruction or original. I especially want to go to De Smet, and to Laura's home in the Ozarks. I understand Pa's fiddle is on display there; talk about a religious experience! I'll probably break down in tears when I see that!

[ilovetchotchkes]

For anyone who loved the Little House books but would like a more grown-up take on the hardships of pioneer life, check out some of Rose's own fiction. It's been a while since I read them, but I recall at least one episode that was a duplicate of something in the LH books - the kids wandering out and nearly freezing to death? - but with a much more realistic and awful result.

There's also an episode in one of her book (Rose's) that she's working for a guy as a telegraph (i think) operator, and she goes out on an outing with her boyfriend, gets stuck somewhere because they miss the last ferry home, and the boss basically how do we put this, the boss basically makes it clear that since she was with a man, and he expected HER to um, be with "him" eventually, that she got in huge trouble, or fired. I can't remember which.

[SisiL78]

If the Duggar and other Fundie girls aren't allowed to read romance then I can't see them even reading Little Women. It seems most of the books discussed included some level of romance. At what point is a book a good read and not a romance?

[Elle]

Somewhere on the Web, somebody is doing a close reading of the Elsie Dinsmore series that shows just what a horrible man her father is. He's the patriarchal ideal. Eventually Elsie does not have a single thought in her head that he did not script for her. She apologizes for showing any emotion or evincing any need that inconveniences him in the slightest. And she serves him and adores him and cuddles him just like an ideal submissive wife, in every way except sexually.

The reviewer argues that the author was attempting to work through her own screwed-up relationship with her domineering, boundary-trampling, manipulative father. She has posted reviews of the ED series from the time of publication, BTW, and they are by and large unfavorable. So much for the ideal society of bygone days.

If I get the chance, I'll dig up the link to the review site.

The man ignored her existence for the first several years of it, yet she was convinced, thanks to the bible, that he was perfect in every way.

No matter how much I try to twist my brain, I can't figure out in what way his "fondling" of her when she would sit in his lap wasn't sexual. He fondled her often. I don't know of any meaning other than the meaning we all know when referring to fondling a person.

[Elle]

You know, in all the years I've known and loved the Little House books (started reading them when I was about six, and still pick one up to read now and then even in my 50s), I never thought about this til now. :lol:

Yup! It's in These Happy Golden Years. Almanzo would drive out many miles to where she as boarding as a teacher to drive her home on the weekends, every weekend without fail regardless of how bad the weather would get, because he knew she was so miserable in the house where she was boarding and wanted to be home with her family. After that semester was up and she was back with her parents, he frequently stopped by to take her on rides in his small little sleigh that just barely fit the both of them, and her father was more than okay with it, he encouraged it because he knew Almanzo was a good, respectful young man! Just try finding one of our fundies who would be allowed to do more than sit "along" on the porch with someone of the opposite sex while a chaperone is right inside the door.

I recently re-read this one after not having read it for years and years, and just felt so awful for them by the time I was finished with it. Nothing went right. Just...nothing. :cry:

Visiting all of Laura's homes has always been at the top of my bucket list. I want to see it all, whether it's reconstruction or original. I especially want to go to De Smet, and to Laura's home in the Ozarks. I understand Pa's fiddle is on display there; talk about a religious experience! I'll probably break down in tears when I see that!

De Smet's the one! It's also close to Rock House, the large home Rose built them. That house is part of the same ticket, so you get to see both, plus the museum. Rock House's kitchen has a lot of furniture in it, and even an apron hung up, all that Laura painted (and she made the apron). In the De Smet house, there's a dish in the kitchen that has a sliver of soap that has been virtually untouched since she died. Being able to stick my nose inches away from the bar of soap she was using when she died was more of a religious experience for me than Charles' violin, which is behind glass in the museum next to it. The soap dish in in Laura and Almanzo's home, in their personal and private space. It was truly amazing.

The house in Little House on the Prairie was torn down ages ago, but historians have tracked down the location using descriptions from the book and then found a hand-dug well right where it should be that dates to about when the family lived there. That house is a reproduction, and I haven't been to that one yet. One day I'll get there, and will also go back to De Smet and Rock House, but have a spy camera or something to take pictures since they aren't allowed and I didn't do such a great job with the ones I snuck last time I was there.

[Loveday]

De Smet's the one! It's also close to Rock House, the large home Rose built them. That house is part of the same ticket, so you get to see both, plus the museum. Rock House's kitchen has a lot of furniture in it, and even an apron hung up, all that Laura painted (and she made the apron). In the De Smet house, there's a dish in the kitchen that has a sliver of soap that has been virtually untouched since she died. Being able to stick my nose inches away from the bar of soap she was using when she died was more of a religious experience for me than Charles' violin, which is behind glass in the museum next to it. The soap dish in in Laura and Almanzo's home, in their personal and private space. It was truly amazing.

The house in Little House on the Prairie was torn down ages ago, but historians have tracked down the location using descriptions from the book and then found a hand-dug well right where it should be that dates to about when the family lived there. That house is a reproduction, and I haven't been to that one yet. One day I'll get there, and will also go back to De Smet and Rock House, but have a spy camera or something to take pictures since they aren't allowed and I didn't do such a great job with the ones I snuck last time I was there.

Wait, I'm confused! :lol: The Rock House and Laura and Almanzo's house--aren't they in Mansfield, Missouri, or are you referring to the Ingalls family home in South Dakota? De Smet is in South Dakota, where Pa and Ma finally stayed put after so many years of traveling around, and where Laura and Almanzo got married etc. I've always wanted to see the house in town where they spent that long, awful winter burning sticks of hay and eating nothing but beans and bread. Have you been there? I'd love to know what you thought of if if you have! :)

[desertvixen]

Somewhere on the Web, somebody is doing a close reading of the Elsie Dinsmore series that shows just what a horrible man her father is. He's the patriarchal ideal. Eventually Elsie does not have a single thought in her head that he did not script for her. She apologizes for showing any emotion or evincing any need that inconveniences him in the slightest. And she serves him and adores him and cuddles him just like an ideal submissive wife, in every way except sexually.

The reviewer argues that the author was attempting to work through her own screwed-up relationship with her domineering, boundary-trampling, manipulative father.

I kind of enjoy in Elsie's Girlhood, where she falls in love with a wrong guy, and has a hard time shaking it. She seems almost normal in that part of the book.

Her father is creepy. Her husband is not much better.

Reading them for free on the Kindle is somewhat addicting though...

And sign me up on all the Laura tours. I'm going to guess most of the Laura fans have read The Wilder Life - if not, do! You'll enjoy it.

[Loveday]

And sign me up on all the Laura tours. I'm going to guess most of the Laura fans have read The Wilder Life - if not, do! You'll enjoy it.

Yes! Loved it! :D

I wonder if the Elsie Dinsmore books are available for free on the Nook. Must investigate this.

[SisiL78]

Yes! Loved it! :D

I wonder if the Elsie Dinsmore books are available for free on the Nook. Must investigate this.

I think you can get the Nook version for free on Project Gutenberg. Most older books are in the public domain and Project Gutenberg legally helps provide those in electronic format.

[Maude]

I have to step up my reading as I haven't read any of the later 'Little House' books, or any Elsie Dinsmore books. Definitely going to check out 'The Wilder Life' when I have a chance. It seems like my 'to read' list is never-ending.