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Christian women don't need epidurals


Jessica

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Oh, Candy...

While reading through the Bible, there's a certain passage that I would always stop at, and reread before continuing on. I wasn't sure how to interpret it. This rattled me, because I generally don't "interpret" the Bible, I just read it as it is, and believe what it says. The thing is, this verse seemed kind of out of place to me, until I really paid attention, and then I got it.

Here is the verse in question:

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. -1 Timothy 2:15

Saved in childbearing? Well, I know this can't mean spiritual or eternal salvation, because the Bible is repeatedly and abundantly clear that salvation comes from a saving faith in Christ, and that is the only way.

The question arises, then, in regards to 1 Timothy 2:15. Saved from what? Another question, what does childbearing have to do with it?

Well, let us turn to the Holy Scriptures, and only those, to get our answer. First, let's read this verse in context:

I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. -1 Timothy 2:8-15

Now let us look at this point by point:

1) Men are to lift holy hands without wrath and doubting. Further, women are also not to doubt or be wrathful, and are also to wear modest clothing, and not costly array and gobs of jewelry.

2) The woman is to learn in silence, and be subject to her husband.

3) While the woman is subject to her husband, she will be saved in childbearing, if THEY continue in faith, charity (Christian love), and holiness with sobriety.

At first glance, the childbearing verse may seem out of place. It's not. It is referring us back to a previous Scripture which brings all of 1 Timothy 2:8-15 into clear view.

We can find the Scripture that explains this, from "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Where in the Bible did the above occur? That's right, in Genesis chapter three. Eve let the serpent beguile her, and she partook of the forbidden fruit, and gave some to Adam, and he partook as well. After this happened, the Lord said the following to the woman:

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. -Genesis 3:16

Sorrow, in connection with childbearing doesn't necessarily mean emotional sorrow (however some women suffer from postpartum depression.) Sorrow in connection with childbirth generally denotes pain.

"In sorrow (`etseb) thou shalt bring forth children." Sorrow: `etseb - pain, hurt, toil, sorrow, labour, hardship."

In Genesis 3:16, we see that the woman is to be in pain/sorrow in childbirth, and her husband is to rule over her. Now let's look back at our 1 Timothy Scripture:

"8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. -1 Timothy 2:8-15

Verse 11 - the woman is to learn in silence with subjection. She is to do this under the headship of her husband:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. -1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. -Ephesians 5:22-24

Verse 11 reminds us that the woman is subject to her husband, which we saw in Genesis 3:16. Genesis 3:16 also says that there will be pain/sorrow in childbearing, but 1 Timothy 2:15 informs us that the woman does not have to stay under that curse.

If the husband and wife (they - see verse 15) remain in "faith and charity and holiness with sobriety," then the woman is saved from the sorrow and pain in childbirth. Christian women don't need epidurals. They are freed from that curse, if they and their husbands are saved, and they have the faith, without doubting.

This makes a lot of sense to me, as I had all my children naturally, and it seemed with each child, not only did the Lord grow the faith of my husband and I, but there seemed to be less pain, and absolutely zero sorrow. My last childbirth (so far) and possibly the one before that one - there wasn't really any pain, just energy. Natural Christian childbirth is a holy experience. Banish the sorrow and pain. That part of the curse has been lifted.

"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." -1 Timothy 2:8

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Many bible verses conflict with one another. Unless you ignore verses that don't agree with your theology, there isn't really a way to make them all agree.

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I saw this and was wondering if someone would post it! It's just too ridiculous.

A few days ago I mentioned I was closing my blog and that the Candy crazytrain would probably start up again as a result. And here we go!

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In all honesty, I've always taken Genesis 3:16 to mean that now that humans no longer live and are born sinless, women will usually feel great pain during childbirth unless they either help themselves to some kind of painkiller or are naturally paralyzed from the waist down. Not that they HAVE to be in pain or else the birth isn't holy. I imagined all of God's proclamations after Adam and Eve were banished from Eden to be more of how their lives will be now, not that He was heaping excess sorrows onto them Himself. Exile was probably enough of a directly divine punishment.

Candy of course would find me to be wrong but if a Bible literalist like her can try interpreting the verse, so can I.

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When the barn door is open that wide, of course it's not going to hurt when you let the cows out. Duh. I'm guessing Farmer Fred also didn't scrape the walls when he drove the tractor in.

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I feel so sorry for the women who get conned into not using the painkillers and modern medicine b/c its not biblical or something.

Although I won't ever understand the Scientologist "silent birth" thing. No drugs and you're not allowed to make a sound.

It seems like only men can make these "rules" and then they find these clingly and somewhat stupid women to go along with these rules.

Reading this fundy nonsense makes me realize even more how lucky I am to have a man who would never force me to be in unnecessary pain simply to uphold some random biblical passage. Its so sad that there are millions of women (perhaps billion if we extend to fundies of other faiths) that are still just chattel of one sort or another. In these cases they are chattel with computers and blogs, but chattel nonetheless.

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This is what you get when you apply preconceived notions to the bible.

She was taught salvation was by faith/grace alone, so this verse can't mean women are saved through having children.

But it can, and in my opinion, does really mean THAT. The biblical view on women is not friendly, and especially Paul sticks out as a misogynist. Women are seen as inferior to men in nearly every aspect, mental capacities, role in society they can fill, they are seen as limited beings and as commodity who cannot determine their own life or eternal salvation.

The phrase "you and your house will be saved" occurs several times in the NT, always spoken to the man. HIS actions determine the fate of the other members of his household. So the woman, if she only does what nature made her for, keep the home, don't annoy her husband, pop out children, is saved if her husband is.

(Hm... maybe the quiverfull people DO follow the biblical family rules after all!)

There is no contradiction in Paul's theology. It is possible to contrast it to Jesus' theology, who had women among the people who followed him, but it is unclear if he taught them as he did with the 12, so it is also possible that Jesus would have been d'accord with Paulinian views.

Sometimes, the contradictions are not in the text, but in our minds, because we do not want to believe that a "holy book" can have such crap in it.

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The Bible is just a Magic 8 Ball-- shake it and see what answer you get. The best crazys can really work that ancient text and bend it to their whim. Sometimes I think it was a shame that the Jews ever wrote it down for preservation because it is used as a weapon as often as it is used for comfort.

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If the husband and wife (they - see verse 15) remain in "faith and charity and holiness with sobriety," then the woman is saved from the sorrow and pain in childbirth. Christian women don't need epidurals. They are freed from that curse, if they and their husbands are saved, and they have the faith, without doubting.

No Candy, just no. Fetal size and lie have waaaaay more to do with the need/desire for pain relief than Jesus.

And this:

Natural Christian childbirth is a holy experience.

Please excuse the hippie-dippy doula future CNM here, but in my opinion/experience, EVERY birth is a holy experience, regardless of how the baby comes out. Two of the most transformational and moving births I've been at included epidurals.

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No Candy, just no. Fetal size and lie have waaaaay more to do with the need/desire for pain relief than Jesus.

And this:

Please excuse the hippie-dippy doula future CNM here, but in my opinion/experience, EVERY birth is a holy experience, regardless of how the baby comes out. Two of the most transformational and moving births I've been at included epidurals.

HA HA! that TOTALLY explains my 30 hour labor with 6 hours of transition!!!! I'm soooo sinful. (And i'm also a heathen Jew, that probably has a lot to do with it too.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: )

Or maybe it was due to a malpositioned baby? Whouda thunk it....

The one thing that I really honestly doubt exists is the whole "orgasmic birth". Yeah, you can get high off the oxytocin coursing through your system, but orgasms? REALLY? But then Fundies would never admit to that would they?

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Wow, she stretched that one like a rubber band.

And I don't even like epidurals. They scare me, for one thing. But having had my first Pit induction (for pre-e), and knowing how prevalent the use of Pitocin is right now, I totally, totally understand why women end up begging for them. I was just lucky that labor was short, or I would probably have overcome my fear of the epidural.

I have had the no pain/just intense energy experience in labor too. But it wasn't the culmination of my spiritual journey as a woman, having reached holiness. He was my second kid. The one before him, and the two after? They *hurt*.

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I'm must be a very bad Christian (of course I'm an evil Catholic :twisted: ), because I suffered a lot of pain for my 3 childbirth, I had 3 epidural and even a life saving (my daughter's not mine) c-section for the first one...

Candy was my gateway fundie. I used to like her, many years ago, but she pissed me off with all her hate against my Catholic faith, she is hateful and quite insane IMO

BTW, thank you for opening this thread, I didn't know how to do it, I guess I haven't posted enough messages yet...

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HA HA! that TOTALLY explains my 30 hour labor with 6 hours of transition!!!! I'm soooo sinful. (And i'm also a heathen Jew, that probably has a lot to do with it too.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: )

Or maybe it was due to a malpositioned baby? Whouda thunk it....

The one thing that I really honestly doubt exists is the whole "orgasmic birth". Yeah, you can get high off the oxytocin coursing through your system, but orgasms? REALLY? But then Fundies would never admit to that would they?

Obviously Jesus put your baby in that position to punish you for being a heathen Jew!

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I had 4 natural, hellish births. We are kind of told that is how you are supposed to do it, that unmedicated birth is the ideal and everything else is unnatural. In my first labor, the labor nurses refused to even ask my doctor about an epidural because I was young and unmarried and "needed to learn." Learn what, that L&D nurses can be sadistic bitches? By the time my doctor got there, it was probably too late but he was annoyed they had not even called and asked or talked to his partner, who had been at the hospital. I was offered epidurals with the next three, but I refused. They could have been mistaken for scientology births because when I am in pain I kind of shut down and get very quiet. In my first 4 births, I was not extremely interested in the baby because I was so burnt out and exhausted. Not that I was not interested, just that I did not have a lot of emotion left to use in the occasion.

With the 5th, I decided I did not have shit to prove to anyone and got the epidural. It was the easiest, fastest labor. I was so relaxed. They turned off the meds when it was time for me to push, and I got sensation back REALLY FAST unfortunately. So I still had some pain, but I was not strung out or exhausted from a long labor. It was the easiest birth I have ever heard of! My other births involved some medical emergencies, this one was textbook in every way. And when the baby was born, it was amazing. I felt like I was really, completely there in the moment. I was not as exhausted, I spent the rest of the afternoon counting toes and smelling him.

So, I consider my medicated birth much better. I am sure the easy delivery had something to do with the fact that it was my fifth child and he was two pounds smaller than my other babies, but being well-rested and calm definitely allowed me to appreciate the whole miracle of birth.

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And don't forget that Candy and Wunderhubbee prayed to see if she should go to the doctor for prenatal care and God said no. So Wunderhubbee was her doula, midwife and birth assistant for all 4 babies. He sterilized a paper clip to break her water and she had the baby on a mattress on a floor. (At least it wasn't a poop stained picnic table).

Candy's so full of shit. I commented once that she should admit that she lied in her blog about her childhood and she accused me of being mean and i didn't know what I was talking about. I told her some of her readers have long memories.

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My first came so fast that I was told that forever more that I would be refused all painkillers during labor. Sure most of my kids were born in under an hour and I would go from 3cm to 10 in seconds but it still fucking hurt as I was still doing the same amount of work in a much shorter time. Well when my labor floundered with #5 and they asked me to have an Epi I turned them down, I wanted to walk and enjoy my last pregnancy. They asked me again and I said maybe. They asked me again and I said thank you, God bless your heart, thank you.

If I hadn't had the epi I would have had to have a c-sect and maybe my unborn son might have died. His cord was wrapped so tight that it almost broke his neck as it did break through the skin around his neck.

Sometimes doing what the doctors want is a very, very good thing. ;)

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Wow, she stretched that one like a rubber band.

And I don't even like epidurals. They scare me, for one thing. But having had my first Pit induction (for pre-e), and knowing how prevalent the use of Pitocin is right now, I totally, totally understand why women end up begging for them. I was just lucky that labor was short, or I would probably have overcome my fear of the epidural.

I have had the no pain/just intense energy experience in labor too. But it wasn't the culmination of my spiritual journey as a woman, having reached holiness. He was my second kid. The one before him, and the two after? They *hurt*.

Doncha' mean cervix. :roll:

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My first came so fast that I was told that forever more that I would be refused all painkillers during labor. Sure most of my kids were born in under an hour and I would go from 3cm to 10 in seconds but it still fucking hurt as I was still doing the same amount of work in a much shorter time.

Yes, total labor experience with my daughter was six hours. Speedy can be good, but it's still going to hurt.

I thought the "no drugs in childbirth" thing was an outgrowth of the menstrual pain/childbirth pain being the punishment of the daughters of Eve...

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Has Mullet ever had an epi? I don't know if it was ever mentioned.

I dont think that Mullet has, but Kelly Bates did. Considering they may be the new gothard approved TV show Candy may want to reconsider her thinking.

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With the 5th, I decided I did not have shit to prove to anyone and got the epidural. It was the easiest, fastest labor. I was so relaxed. They turned off the meds when it was time for me to push, and I got sensation back REALLY FAST unfortunately. So I still had some pain, but I was not strung out or exhausted from a long labor. It was the easiest birth I have ever heard of! My other births involved some medical emergencies, this one was textbook in every way. And when the baby was born, it was amazing. I felt like I was really, completely there in the moment. I was not as exhausted, I spent the rest of the afternoon counting toes and smelling him.

So, I consider my medicated birth much better. I am sure the easy delivery had something to do with the fact that it was my fifth child and he was two pounds smaller than my other babies, but being well-rested and calm definitely allowed me to appreciate the whole miracle of birth.

This was my experience with my second (and last) birth. Fuck that pain and suffering shit; if these fundie women want to pay their sin-dues or think they're gonna get a gold star at the end, they can go for it.

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I've never had a kid, so am probably not so qualified to comment at all, but my first thought is, why does this blogger have to find yet another way that women are Doing It Wrong? Why must childbirth be policed like this?

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I've never had a kid, so am probably not so qualified to comment at all, but my first thought is, why does this blogger have to find yet another way that women are Doing It Wrong? Why must childbirth be policed like this?

Because it says so in the BIBLE and the BIBLE is a proof text for EVERYTHING!!!!111eleventy11!!!

They forget that the flip-side of the curse was that men had to toil by the sweat of their brow, and God did not mean sweating because your WWII replica costume is hot (I'm lookin' at you Doug). Seriously, if these fundies take the Bible literally, then subsistence farming is the only acceptable occupation for a man. The men are perfectly willing to take advantage of advances in technology, but women can't?

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