Female physicians are to blame...

[watchdog]

... for the indifference in medicine today. No, really! Who would have thought?

www.thinkinghousewife.com/wp/2011/07/the-indifferent-physician

So on the one hand we have fundies insisting that male physicians can't examine their wives, and on the other we have fundies insisting that females cannot aspire to be physicians and on top of that, the ones who are physicians are to blame for the epidemic of apathy on the part of today's physicians.

[Brainsample]

Glad to see you watchdog!

Here's the solution. Let women who are sick and need their personal areas examined just die! It was probably their fault that caused the illness -- from some sin cooties somewhere. :roll:

[uber frau]

Hooray. The US will be looking like Afghanistan in no time.

How does this mesh with the idea of the sanctity of life? Oh, that's right, only fetuses and men are really worth anything. :vomit

[camdendayton]

Fetuses = potential men doncha know?

[apple1]

Gag. Puke. (and I have worked as a healthcare professional for, oh, approximately, 39 years, and am not a fan of SOME physicians)

[bananacat]

I think they are really superstitious and truly believe that nothing bad can happen to the women in their lives because God just likes them so much more than everyone else. I think most of them wouldn't go quite so far as to be faith healers, but they do tend to have a delusional air of invincibility. They've convinced themselves that pregnancy is all rainbows and puppies and only selfish evil feminists would have any complaints about it, and that serious complications are rare and exaggerated to make people more sympathetic to abortion. And of course they think pap smears are only for naughty women who had premarital sex and caught an STD, or were such bad wives that they just forced their husband to cheat and bring back the disease, or dressed too immodestly and invited rape. Of course none of these things could happen to their virtuous wives and daughters. And some of them even believe that abortion causes breast cancer.

So since a virtuous godly woman would never have any problem with her naughty parts, it's ok for her to see a male doctor about strep throat or a broken ankle or things like that.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I am a female physician. Been at it for 26 years. It has not been easy to break into the "old boys club". I have put up with more crap from self-entitled primadonna male physicians and administrators than you can possible imagine. Female physicians are still not paid for the same work as well as men. When I was younger, I was admonished for the way I look, the way I dressed, for being to compassionate and for having a sense of humor.

Now that there are more female physicians, many things have improved. However, the pay differential still exists.

The physician lifestyle is hard. The social expectations of women are also hard. Blending the two is nearly impossible. The expectations of even the average husband simply cannot be met. Doctor's wives have tolerated the neglect for generations because in return they get status and security. Women in our culture were raised at least in many respects to tolerate second status and were better able to accept the role of Physician's spouse.

Women have stayed in the profession for the opposite of apathy. I can tell you that despite ALL of the frustrations, I still get joy from caring for patients.

However, there IS a problem with Physician apathy. The reasons are not related to gender at all. Physicians are frustrated because Insurance Companies dictate our every move. We cannot do things that are best for the patient, but instead are held prisoner by mounds of paperwork/computerwork for each and every patient and then waiting for some clerk at the company (or an outsourced agency) to give an "approval", "referral", "preauthorization", etc. In matters not controlled by insurance, we are controlled by hospital and healthcare administrators who make millions of dollars to find ways to take up any small bits of personal time we get.

Apathy is caused by the humongous bureaucracy created to control costs. It is a multi-billion dollar industry. Eventually, we get so stuck in the squarefilling exercise, it is harder and harder to reach out and heal.

We need to make a decision. Either Health care is an entitlement or it is not. If it is not, than we need to do what many Hard Right folks think we should. If it is, then we need to streamline the process and let us just do our job. And yes, because the renumeration will be less and our authority will be less, then give us time to ourselves in return. It is not apathy, but personal time will help us be better able to approach our work with softer hands.

[browngrl]

The article is a huge stinking pile of rubbish.

Blaming women for all the problems in medicine is one thing but the most concerning thing to me is casualness of the writer's hatred towards women. Of course all things that go wrong are the fault of women. They ate the apple after all. I hope the writer of this blog is a man. The thought that a woman is writing a blog that so systematically grinds women down is pathetic.

[watchdog]

However, there IS a problem with Physician apathy.

Apathy is caused by the humongous bureaucracy created to control costs. It is a multi-billion dollar industry. Eventually, we get so stuck in the squarefilling exercise, it is harder and harder to reach out and heal.

You're absolutely right. My family and I have experienced the apathy epidemic many times. Our wonderful PCP (who doesn't accept insurance and avoids the hassles that come with most of the red tape) actually says something I say all the time... "I hate doctors." And he is one! Unfortunately, we can't live without them, and there are still good ones although it's becoming more and more difficult to find one. Contrary to what all the magazine articles tell you, most physicians I've seen do NOT like educated patients. They want you to keep quiet and do whatever they tell you without question.

All that and the fact that there is simply more apathy in society in general today, and so often money (as much of it as you can get) is the bottom line. Let's face it. Too many physicians go into medicine not because they care that much about helping people but because of the money they know they'll eventually make along with the lifestyle and prestige. Pursuit of excellence has been replaced in many cases by pursuit of the almighty dollar.

But many fundies (and chauvinists) still look at everything through the "it's all women's fault" filter. Too much red tape? Blame women. Too many patients and not enough time? Blame women. After all, they birthed all those babies who grew up and got sick and are clogging the system. Competition with male doctors? Blame women. They should all stay at home and take care of the children full-time.

There's nothing wrong with staying home and raising the children full-time if that's your choice. However, I'd like to see what would happen to the healthcare system if all the women, from physicians to nurses to techs to cafeteria workers to housekeeping crews stayed home for even one day. The system would fall apart. Fundies want it both ways. They want female physicians to be there to take care of their wives, and they want female nurses and support staff to be there if they or a member of their family get sick, but at the same time they insist women in the workplace are not living according to God's will.

You can't have it both ways! This article was a good example of all those things.

[watchdog]

Apathy is caused by the humongous bureaucracy created to control costs.

Which, unfortunately, seem to have only increased costs and frustration and decreased access to decent healthcare, affordable or not. I don't see a reversal coming anytime soon.

And if we get the government involved more, we'll turn into Canada or England where waiting times to get treatment (if you can get needed treatment at all) will go through the roof. No offense to our Canadian and British friends, but you know what I'm talking about. Affordable healthcare doesn't always mean the best healthcare. The system is "broke" and needs to be fixed. I'm just not convinced the government getting more involved is the answer.

[Austin]

Which, unfortunately, seem to have only increased costs and frustration and decreased access to decent healthcare, affordable or not. I don't see a reversal coming anytime soon.

And if we get the government involved more, we'll turn into Canada or England where waiting times to get treatment (if you can get needed treatment at all) will go through the roof. No offense to our Canadian and British friends, but you know what I'm talking about. Affordable healthcare doesn't always mean the best healthcare. The system is "broke" and needs to be fixed. I'm just not convinced the government getting more involved is the answer.

I'd like to hear more about this from actual Canadians and Brits. Americans talk about this a lot and have lots of anecdotes, but based on what I've read from people who actually live in countries with the ebil socialist medicine, they don't really seem to feel that way. They seem to usually express that while it's not perfect, they wouldn't trade it for American healthcare for anything.

So, really, I'm just asking. We have Canadians and Europeans on FJ - what do you think?

[uber frau]

I usually stay far away from these debates, but I'll jump in tonight.

Australian here. Our system has problems, sure. But there is no way in hell I'd want swap it for the US system. Even areas like mental health and disabilty services are infinitely better than the services offered to all but the very richest of Americans.

There are things that I love about the US-I'd move there tomorrow if it weren't for the healthcare and education systems.

[watchdog]

I'd like to hear more about this from actual Canadians and Brits. Americans talk about this a lot and have lots of anecdotes, but based on what I've read from people who actually live in countries with the ebil socialist medicine, they don't really seem to feel that way. They seem to usually express that while it's not perfect, they wouldn't trade it for American healthcare for anything.

So, really, I'm just asking. We have Canadians and Europeans on FJ - what do you think?

I would, too. My intent wasn't to start a debate about US vs. other countries' healthcare systems. However, I still contend the US government, that can't seem to do much of anything without making it more complicated and expensive, does not need to be put in charge of our national healthcare system.

Medicare is great now, at least if you have a good supplemental policy and drug plan, but how long can it last? My octogenarian mother was forced to take Medicare when she turned 65. However, for a little less than $100 a month for Medicare and a little under $300 for a supplemental policy that pays her deductibles and 100% of the 20% Medicare doesn't pay, for less than $400 a month total, she has access to much better healthcare than I do. She can go to any doctor or hospital she wants. My policy is over $200 a month (and increases every year) and has a $2500 deductible, so I'm out $5000 before I really benefit from it other than reduced Rx costs and a "free" annual mammogram.

Unfortunately, more and more doctors are refusing to accept Medicare assignment because in most cases they get paid only a fraction of what they charge. Hospitals and specialists fare better. When a doctor charges $250 for a 5-minute office visit and gets reimbursed "only" $120, I find it difficult to work up a lot of sympathy for him.

A recent example straight from my mother's Medicare EOBs. A hospital charged $2500 for an ultrasound while a free-standing facility charged about $400 for the same procedure (same ICD-9 code). The hospital got paid over $1100 while the imaging facility got paid about $250. Both will write off the difference as a "loss," but when there's that much difference in charges for the same test, something's wrong. If you have Medicare and no supplement or another 80/20 plan, it pays to shop around.

I'm also of the opinion that your healthcare should not be tied to your job.

[Guest Anonymous]

Canadian here, and I can tell you that my doc would say the same thing re paperwork - especially as it applies to disability claims/insurance etc...in the past 15 years the workload has gone from primarily treating patients to filling out forms (yes, our basical heathcare is covered, but once you need to make disability or work accident claims the same mire of insurance mumbo jumbo exists).

Re state of healthcare system and wait times etc. I live in a large city to there is no shortage of doctors or specialists. Very serious illness gets treated very quickly (cancer etc) and long wait times tend to be for elective surgeries (say knee replacements) or if you go to the ER for a minor injury/illness. In some rural areas there are doctor shortages and it can take awhile to see a specialist - but I don't think those are really private/public issues and that the same thing exists in the US. If I need to see my doc for a general issue I can usually get in within the week or if it's an emergency he'll squeeze me in. When I was pregnant I had no issues getting an ob-gyn and had excellent treatment in the hospital - and no bill! I wouldn't trade this system for one where I could lose my house if someone became seriously ill.

It's not perfect and you need your doctor to go to bat for you to get you specialists etc and so on, but I think that's anywhere.

Edited to add:

Re women physicans and pay differences - I think it was a U of Toronto study a few years ago that found that while more women physicians were graduating, their pay/work hours/numbers practicing decreased in the earlier years of practice - their conclusions (surprise!) were that pregnancy and being primarily responsible for children/family needs resulted in them either working less or being asked to work less. Sounds like the doctors' husbands could take a page from the old-fashioned doctors' wives. Anecdotally, dh's cousin's wife is an MD who practices and teaches, and the cousin, God love him, is the primary parent - despite being a researcher/prof.

[moreorlessnu]

I am a female physician. Been at it for 26 years. It has not been easy to break into the "old boys club". I have put up with more crap from self-entitled primadonna male physicians and administrators than you can possible imagine. Female physicians are still not paid for the same work as well as men. When I was younger, I was admonished for the way I look, the way I dressed, for being to compassionate and for having a sense of humor.

Now that there are more female physicians, many things have improved. However, the pay differential still exists.

The physician lifestyle is hard. The social expectations of women are also hard. Blending the two is nearly impossible. The expectations of even the average husband simply cannot be met. Doctor's wives have tolerated the neglect for generations because in return they get status and security. Women in our culture were raised at least in many respects to tolerate second status and were better able to accept the role of Physician's spouse.

Women have stayed in the profession for the opposite of apathy. I can tell you that despite ALL of the frustrations, I still get joy from caring for patients.

This makes me sad.

My physician is awesome. I walk out of her office feeling like I get excellent care from her. I'm sure there are patients of yours who feel the same way about you.

[Lainey]

Canadian here, also. I am one of those who wouldn't trade our health care system for an American-style one for anything. Wait times are long, yes. If you go to the clinic, you might have to wait for a few hours. Some clinics now let you leave and they'll call you when it's getting close to your turn. My clinic has a "fast track" where you can make appointments for quick things like prescription refills (at this particular clinic, you can't make appointments otherwise). The nurse does all the work, and then the doctor comes in quickly and signs the Rx. It's great if that's all you need.

There are long wait times at emergency rooms. However, some people go to the emergency room for truly stupid things (I've heard hangnails are one, although I've never seen it myself, but I've been lucky enough to not need to go to the emergency room). The sicker you are, the faster you get seen. This is in the city. In my hometown, the wait time at the emergency room isn't that long.

If you need to see a specialist, the doctor refers you and you get an appointment. No paying. For example, I'm able to see a psychiatrist and get therapy for free, because my doctor referred me.

[jjmennonite]

Canadian here. I am middle-class, I suppose, and my parents were/are penniless. I have just gone through the 4 or 5 years it took my mother to die and am now going through it with my father. I have been to emergency countless times with mom, and a few times with dad. Each have had > month hospital stay, and mom got rehab in hospital after a stroke and learned to walk again. All this was emotionally taxing, but never once have I had to pay anything - other than help pay for Dad's dentist when he used up his whole $5000 five year allotment in 1 year, when he was still looking after things himself. Mom was cared for excellently in hospital, in a low-care centre and eventually in a nursing home, until she died. Dad is now in a nursing home after a stroke and nearly 2 months in hospital. They provide everything, and are gentle and respectful. It is emotionally taxing, being the only sibling of 5, in town, but I never have done any physical care besides ride along with the handibus to appointments - and have not paid for anything.

I saw on the chatter thread somebody who is looking after elderly parents, and I could not even respond - I can feel for her emotionally, but I bet she does not want to hear that I am going through it, only it requires NO physical or financial care from me.

My 18 year old daughter had 3 hospital visits before she was 2. It was hard, emotionally, again, but no financial impact whatsoever. The care was excellent. 19 years ago I was single, pregnant and unemployed, and I decided I would have a baby. The worst thing that could happen here: I would go on welfare. I would be warm and well fed.

Many things I read here make me so grateful to be Canadian. I usually don't respond because I don't EVER want anybody to think I am rubbing your face in it. You asked, and I have an opinion.

I have lots of compassion and empathy for people who are struggling, and I know I have it VERY good.

[liltwinstar]

Wait...so when Canadians talk about a "long wait time" they mean that they have to wait for several *hours* to see a doctor and that somtimes you wait a long time in ER????

Ok, I've been thinking "long wait time" = months to see a doctor, not hours.

Shoot, I have what's considered a "cadillac" plan here in the US, and I have to wait several hours to see a doctor (unless you get carted to the ER by ambulance, you're going to wait a bit). I'm not complaining about my own personal medical care by any means. My mind is just blown that "long wait times" = hours. Wow.

I wish the US would get our healthcare system fixed.

[Guest Anonymous]

Well, you can also wait months for specialists and tests like ct scans etc....Toronto hospitals have tried to alleviate this by running these tests at night/off hours - some people do go to the US to get MRI's etc (but if your doc can prove that you needed the scan/test in a time not allowable due to Canadian/Ontario availability, the public insurance plan will pay for it). For most of us a US clinic is only an hour or two away.

[aubrietta]

Another Canadian here...

Long wait times in the ER are mostly due to people who don't have a PCP and so go to the ER for their sliver to be removed. This is because we have a shortage of family doctors because doctors don't like filling out all the paperwork and things have gotten more bureaucratic as time goes on.

I've definitely used more than my share of health services, and while there are technically waits to see specialists, sometimes of several months, I've always been able to get in at a reasonable length of time by getting on the cancellation list and being willing to come in on short notice.

However, elective surgeries do have long waits, sometimes of years. My friend needs surgery for her shoulder and has been waiting two years. While this sucks for her, I think that the system serves 90% of the population really, really well. Unfortunately, she falls into the 10% that it sucks for. Can the American system say that it is serving 90% of its population well? I doubt it. I think our system is imperfect, but really great.

My monthly premiums are just over $100 for my whole family. There is never any co-pay for doctor's visits, hospital stays etc. (Although I did have to pay extra to get a private room after I had my baby)

[urban explorer]

I had to go into the private sector just to get competent help, here in Canada it isn't the famale problem it's the system that's screwed up. I'm pissed that I have to pay out of pocket for help that should be there already,but to find a good GP when everyone else is looking it's hard.

[cjsmom]

I'd like to hear more about this from actual Canadians and Brits. Americans talk about this a lot and have lots of anecdotes, but based on what I've read from people who actually live in countries with the ebil socialist medicine, they don't really seem to feel that way. They seem to usually express that while it's not perfect, they wouldn't trade it for American healthcare for anything.

So, really, I'm just asking. We have Canadians and Europeans on FJ - what do you think?

I have dual British and Canadian citizenship. I have used the healthcare system sparingly in both countries, but have found the care to be timely, efficient, and compassionate regardless of which side of the Atlantic I've been living on. My son is on the autism spectrum (PDD-NOS), and we have not had to pay a cent for diagnosis or ongoing medical care, and do not wait excessively for professionals for either his autism, or anxiety (secondary to the autism, but something that impacts his quality of life).

Yes, in both countries, I pay/paid taxes, and I pay healthcare premiums in Canada, but I am happy to pay those in lieu of my own care or the care of other Canadians (I do not plan on living in the UK again - but that's an esthetic choice - the Canadian Rockies are beautiful!). It is a basic human right to have universal healthcare, and it is a responsibility to help pay for it. Plain and simple.

What is interesting is that Britain has a 2-tier system, and it's created disparity and wait times - especially in fields that are expensive which become overloaded. My dad required extensive orthopedic surgery to rebuild crumbling ankles, and the private system would not have provided the surgery or aftercare. There were several private-preferring patients who had to use the public system if they wanted orthopedic care - it's too expensive for the companies to offer it.

[bananacat]

I'm in the U.S. and I've always had months-long wait times for any kind of specialist, except the one time that it was potentially life-threatening, and then I "only" waited a week (with instructions to go the ER if I had specific symptoms that indicated a rupture).

Of course ER wait times are long for most people, because of triage. It's not first-come first-served like Starbucks (or Tim Horton's). If someone has a life-threatening injury and you have a horrible sore throat, of course you have to wait for that other person to be stabilized first. I'm just amazed that people don't realize how things are prioritized for ERs.

[browngrl]

Canadian physician here.

I would never ever trade our health care system for the system in the States. Of course our system is not perfect -but what system is. I can't believe the rhetoric of the American press regarding our health care system. Most Canadians would NEVER want the American system. A few years ago there was a contest to pick the most important Canadian - the man who won was the person who put our health care system together.

Let me address a few issues.

Wait times: Emergencies and critical cases get handled quickly but elective things can take time. The waiting period can be an excellent time for the patient to think about the elective procedure - perhaps do research, perhaps consult with family/friends or get a second opinion. In America there seems to be an unnecessary rush to do something. Many things can wait till the patient has had time to consider their options. Some medical conditions improve over time and the wait time can help eliminate unnecessary intervention. I find that sometimes people interpret motion for action. Just because you can do something right away is no reason you should. Certainly some people are made to wait too long but the majority are not.

Female Physicians: In Canada, in many of the medical schools the MAJORITY of the students are women. Women physicians do work fewer hours/see fewer patients than many of the older physicians (especially older male physicians)- however this is often a very good thing. They often spend more time with each patient. Mistakes are less likely to happen when you take time with a patient and when you are not exhausted. There is a better work life balance. Most of the younger male physicians I see in the places I've worked want to practice more like women physicians rather than the older generation of men.

Pay for Female Physicians: I get paid per xray/mammo/CT/MRi/ultrasound I read. If I read more cases I make more money. If I read fewer cases I get paid less. It is as simple as that.

edited to correct a mistake

[SunnyAndrsn]

During clinic hours, part of the triage process is to ask the pt. if they want to be seen in the clinic or the ER. When possible, for pts. with the proverbial sliver, we will send them to the clinic. Often times, the response from the pt. is "Whatever is faster". These pts upset me because of the cost involved and resources involved. Pts. don't seem to realize that although they might be the only pt. when they walk into the ER, 10 minutes later a pt. with chest pain could come in and then I'm not going to get back to the sliver pt. for a long time--and it WOULD have been easier to simply make an appointment.

In my short time in an emergency department, I'm simply shocked at the level of stupid that's out there walking around. I feel sorry for the MD's that have to put up with this crap, and it makes me glad I'm a nurse. We have plenty of paperwork to do to...it's all about CYA.

Canadian physician here.

I would never ever trade our health care system for the system in the States. Of course our system is not perfect -but what system is. I can't believe the rhetoric of the American press regarding our health care system. Most Canadians would NEVER want the American system. A few years ago there was a contest to pick the most important Canadian - the man who won was the person who put our health care system together.

Let me address a few issues.

Wait times: Emergencies and critical cases get handled quickly but elective things can take time. The waiting period can be an excellent time for the patient to think about the elective procedure - perhaps do research, perhaps consult with family/friends or get a second opinion. In America there seems to be an unnecessary rush to do something. Many things can wait till the patient has had time to consider their options. Some medical conditions improve over time and the wait time can help eliminate unnecessary intervention. I find that sometimes people interpret motion for action. Just because you can do something right away is no reason you should. Certainly some people are made to wait too long but the majority are not.

Female Physicians: In Canada, in many of the medical schools the MAJORITY of the students are women. Women physicians do work fewer hours/see fewer patients than many of the older physicians (especially older male physicians)- however this is often a very good thing. They often spend more time with each patient. Mistakes are less likely to happen when you take time with a patient and when you are not exhausted. There is a better work life balance. Most of the younger male physicians I see in the places I've worked want to practice more like women physicians rather than the older generation of men.

Pay for Female Physicians: I get paid per xray/mammo/CT/MRi/ultrasound I read. If I read more cases I make more money. If I read fewer cases I get paid less. It is as simple as that.

edited to correct a mistake