Duggar daughters and marriage, are we asking the right question?

[Elle]

Also despite what what we've been led to believe, I don't think the Duggars and Bateses get along at all with the exception of the little ones. So, I don't see any courtships/engagements/marriages between those families...period. Their "meetings" look very forced, and it it is very evident that Michelle and Kelly are at best civil to each other. JB is also loves to kind of brag about his brood and wealth in front of Gil. It's also very clear that the older kids on both sides don't get along at all and are just being civil for the cameras. Didn't Jill (?) make a remark about the different styles of music they play in a snooty tone? Even with the Bates' show premiering in August, I don't see the dynamics between those families changing.

I think the families started out as friends, Jchelle feeling righteous for "inspiring" Kelly and Kelly looking up to Jchelle. But now that Kelly's caught up, shit's gotten too real for Jchelle now that her last two have ended in disaster and near-disaster, and her throne as Top Uterus is threatened. Kelly's done it with no twins, so in a way, she's topped Jchelle.

Since the Duggar kids' only worth so far is in what labor they can offer in mega-families, I think they are going to feel threatened. At least Erin Bates has been allowed to stand out for something individual to her.

Jim needs to STFU immediately. If it's about penises, Gil's knocked up Kelly more times. If it's about helping the Bateses finish their home, the Duggar compound was only finished because TLC stepped in and finished it up. If it's about money, Gil hasn't had the family property behind him the way the Duggars have. (Let's just overlook how much debt he and Kelly are in to one of their sons because that's a wash when considering how much money Jim and Jchelle have made off of their kids to date.) Jim's an asshole who doesn't forget to take time and boast even to those in poverty in third-world countries.

[Elle]

Getting married at 20 and having the first baby at 21 would be a shock to someone raised in "secular society", but to an ATI woman, they have been raised their whole lives for this. The camera only shows so much, but I expect that ATI girls are taught to put up with a lot of shit from men. Even at my very liberal church, some women still believe that you are to remain silent and pray that your man will change (bullshit I know). I'm guessing that Anna does a lot of praying.

Jana really does seem depressed. When it is crammed down your throat from a young age that all you are good for is to get married and raise babies, becoming an old maid is a realistic fear.

Remember there was the camera panning over a flier Michelle was giving out, that included such gems as it being a wife's duty to accept her husband's abuses. There is a lot that happens right in front of the cameras, but that is edited out, which is why so plainly showing that flier was so striking in comparison. It blatantly said that there's more going on than we're allowed to see, and it's not all rainbows and roses.

[Elle]

Or maybe Josh just really wanted the physical intimacy of marriage, so got married as soon as he was allowed, and the Duggar girls just have impossibly high standards when it comes to men. Doesn't one of the books have a list of all the things they're looking for in a future husband? It was discussed on FJ once and I seem to remember it looked pretty hard to live up to.

For Josh, he can have all the sex without the back-to-back pregnancies and subsequent labors and deliveries before going back to running after a household of toddlers while recovering postpartum until the kids are old enough to be paired off.

For the girls, well, it might not be so much high standards as it is delaying going into that kind of life. I don't believe for one single second that every single one of the Duggar girls actually wants to do that. So what options do they have right now? They can get married and be stuck, flee the flock right now with no support and risk public condemnation wince their family is still in the spotlight, or wait it out and hope that they can leave quietly when the gravy train eases up.

[Mela99]

I wonder if Boob still gets letters and pictures from guys who want to marry the girls. It creeps me out hardcore. I could see him bringing one of them home and being like, here! I picked you a husband!

Surprised they don't start setting up arranged courtships at ATI/Gothard. Speed courting? Comparing bank statements and hymen checks?

[pixydust]

I wonder if Boob still gets letters and pictures from guys who want to marry the girls. It creeps me out hardcore. I could see him bringing one of them home and being like, here! I picked you a husband!

Surprised they don't start setting up arranged courtships at ATI/Gothard. Speed courting? Comparing bank statements and hymen checks?

Honestly, I don't get WHY someone hasn't started a matchmaking "ministry" for these people! It's hard for them to meet people, with everyone being so spread out. They could do speed courting at the conference in Big Sandy! :dance:

[marmalade]

I thought Anna promised her father she wouldn't court/get engaged (not sure which) until she was twenty. I think I remember Michelle saying something to her along the lines of "Remember how you promised your daddy you wouldn't court until you were twenty and then it was on your 20th birthday Josh proposed?" It was like Michelle was saying God obviously blessed Anna with Josh. I think it was the episode where they drove from Florida to Arkansas, then had hand sex on the lounge while talking to the family.

Please correct me if I have gone mad and this is wrong.

Smugs and Anna had been courting since January 2008, so her promise was apparently not to get engaged before then, since that's Gothard's sacred cow. They like to talk about courtship, but plenty have been broken and other mates found flying quietly under the radar.

[MetalLaLa]

Crushing the spirit of your own daughter seems to be high priority for JB and Michelle before they send them off to be married. It's obvious they've done this already with Jinger, Joy Anna and Johannah, so the finishing touch would be to send them off to go on their 'Journey' and erase all independent thought and ability to ask themselves, 'Why can't I pick who and when to marry?'

I really, really hope that the day comes soon where the whole ATI regime gets exposed in the chance it will free the Duggar girls, and others from fundy families. Then that would be 'problem solved'.

[mulepetter]

. . . hymen checks? . . .

Ha! Ha! I chuckled for five minutes on that!

[geniebelle6901]

Honestly, I don't get WHY someone hasn't started a matchmaking "ministry" for these people!

A Christian Mingle for fundies? Hmmm.....that might be a nice money making venture. :think:

[bananacat]

I think you're all being naive if you think the young women get any say in this at all. They'll marry when and who Daddy tells them to, whether they want to or not. That is pretty much the entire point of Patriarchy, after all.

[sassycupcake]

I think you're all being naive if you think the young women get any say in this at all. They'll marry when and who Daddy tells them to, whether they want to or not. That is pretty much the entire point of Patriarchy, after all.

I think you're correct in assuming that Daddy gets the first and final say in who/what/when/where his daughters marry, but I doubt it's hard to get these women to think its their idea. They've never touched, spoken to, or made eye contact with a man outside their own families, and they've been brainwashed into hyperpurity mode, so they're basically stunted at the emotional maturity of a twelve-year-old girl.

And, like many preteen girls beginning to discover sexual attraction and romantic relationships, they will attach themselves to the first boy that gives them the time of day. The problem is that most of us got over this when Johnny from math class let us borrow a pencil in the sixth grade and we quickly figured out that Johnny had poor taste in movies and nothing in common with us. Fundie women, on the other hand, probably get infatuated with the first douche that "God lays on her father's heart" to allow eye contact with, and don't find out that obsessive crushes =/= love until long after the marriage license has been signed.

[lilah]

Thanks. How do we know she was sent as opposed to chose to go? Has this been discussed on the show at all? When did she start? What do the interns do there?

I've noticed in the last few years Jana has been going on a lot of mission trips, some of which had men attending plus a lot of female only retreats. She is also on camera a lot less I tend to think she is done with being at home and done with being on the show and is looking for opportunities to get out of the house and potentially meet a man. The more nefarious theory is that Jana is depressed or upset with her life so her parents are forcing her to do all these extracurricular activities so she can stay off camera and get brainwashed into having a perfect servant's heart.

Honestly, I don't get WHY someone hasn't started a matchmaking "ministry" for these people! It's hard for them to meet people, with everyone being so spread out. They could do speed courting at the conference in Big Sandy!

I bet fundies would get mega-freaked out by speed dating! Think of all opportunities to give away pieces of your heart.

That said, I think matchmaking would be perfect espescially since the fundies are so spread out all over the place! Orthodox Jews use matchmaking sites and shadcans (matchmakers) and they tend to live in tightknit, geographically close communities with presumably fewer barriers to finding a partner.

[pixydust]

I bet fundies would get mega-freaked out by speed dating! Think of all opportunities to give away pieces of your heart.

That said, I think matchmaking would be perfect espescially since the fundies are so spread out all over the place! Orthodox Jews use matchmaking sites and shadcans (matchmakers) and they tend to live in tightknit, geographically close communities with presumably fewer barriers to finding a partner.

I think fundie speed dating would be hilarious! How much heart-giving-away can be done in 5 minutes? They don't even have to look each other in the eye, if they don't want to, and her dad could stand there and stare while the boy asks her what her favorite Bible verse is. Good times had for all!

[Mela99]

Smugs and Anna had been courting since January 2008, so her promise was apparently not to get engaged before then, since that's Gothard's sacred cow. They like to talk about courtship, but plenty have been broken and other mates found flying quietly under the radar.

I didn't realize they'd been courting for that long. It seemed like a thirty second deal, he was already planning the engagement when he started...

[geniebelle6901]

I think you're all being naive if you think the young women get any say in this at all. They'll marry when and who Daddy tells them to, whether they want to or not. That is pretty much the entire point of Patriarchy, after all.

True, but this could be a dating service where young fundie men send their profiles for fathers to review. To ensure only fathers get to see the profiles, they could sign up at their ATI conventions and be given their passwords there.

[Lainey]

Here's the thread where it was discussed: http://www.freejinger.org/viewtopic.php ... adquarters. If you read the thread, there is also mention of it being on another forum, but I haven't checked it out yet.

Thanks! I missed this, somehow.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I remember reading that the reason why many fundies not only do not do matchmaking but also don't actively look for spouses for their kids is that they believe that if God wants it, he will literally send the potential spouse to your doorstep. I think at some point someone who knew the Maxwells also came on the old board (this is all fuzzy recollection so forgive me if I'm way off) and said that they (Maxwells) believed that one was to meet a spouse while "going about God's work", and specifically looking for a spouse was "not trusting God."

[Mela99]

I think it was important that they unload Josh before he screwed up publicly and did something that would/could limit the family's ability to earn money from TLC.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Josh got married so early for the show. I think he truly does love Anna, but I think he was allowed to marry when he did to boost the show.

[JenniferJuniper]

Josh got married so early for the show. I think he truly does love Anna, but I think he was allowed to marry when he did to boost the show.

My impression was that he got married because he was horny. He even said something about "those desires" at some point just before he was married. Maybe the show's shooting schedule played a role in the timing of the proposal and the wedding, but I got the sense Joshie was pushing hard for it and JB and Michelle agreed he was better off married.

[Mela99]

My impression was that he got married because he was horny. He even said something about "those desires" at some point just before he was married. Maybe the show's shooting schedule played a role in the timing of the proposal and the wedding, but I got the sense Joshie was pushing hard for it and JB and Michelle agreed he was better off married.

I agree with that. On his website he went into a rant about sex saying more or less that you shouldn't think about it and if you do, tell your parents. And that Boob agreed "God wanted Anna for me". Not entirely sure how that was revealed to Boob, so I wouldn't doubt it.

[3 is enough]

Josh getting married was a win-win for everyone involved.

He was having trouble controlling himself, and it was only a matter of time before another "sin in the camp" scandal happened.

JB and Michelle got to prove to the world that they successfully raised a fine Christian young man who was able to support himself and a family of his own. (At least to the unquestioning fans).

TLC got the novelty of a Duggar wedding, closely followed by a grand-Duggar AND a MIL-DIL simultaneous pregnancy.

In order for the show to have any hope of continuing, one of the girls needs to get married. And... off goes Jana to Gothard HQ!

She can be spared because Joy is old enough to take her place, Jubilee didn't live (sad but true), and marrying off one of the girls will buy them another few years before they need to release another child. Jana was probably picked because she's the oldest girl, people have picked up on her unhappiness, and she was in danger of rebelling. There was that whole "inappropriate texting with a guy" story floating around, and just as in Josh's case, damage control kicked in ASAP.

[JenniferJuniper]

In order for the show to have any hope of continuing, one of the girls needs to get married. And... off goes Jana to Gothard HQ!

She can be spared because Joy is old enough to take her place, Jubilee didn't live (sad but true), and marrying off one of the girls will buy them another few years before they need to release another child. Jana was probably picked because she's the oldest girl, people have picked up on her unhappiness, and she was in danger of rebelling. There was that whole "inappropriate texting with a guy" story floating around, and just as in Josh's case, damage control kicked in ASAP.

True, and as they get older, the risk of one of them falling for a Johnny Regular Guy and running off with him increases exponentially. Boob could be walking a fine line if he waits too much longer.

[Inky]

What is this "Sin in the camp" that keeps getting mentioned?

[3 is enough]

What is this "Sin in the camp" that keeps getting mentioned?

When Smuggar was about 16, Jim Bob had an unsuccessful campaign for the US Senate. He blamed his loss on "sin in the camp" while glaring at Josh, who was sporting a shaved head. There was speculation that he had attended a Gothard re-education camp.

No one actually knows exactly what Josh's supposed sin was- there are various rumours ranging from him molesting one or more of his siblings, to fondling a sleeping Holt girl to whom he was supposedly engaged at the time, to a porn addiction, to getting caught playing with himself.