Duggar daughters and marriage, are we asking the right question?

[pixydust]

We talk a lot here about why the Duggar older daughters aren't courting/getting married. I think that we are asking the wrong question, after all they are still very young (Jana is 22? That is still young, even in fundie land). I think that the question is why did Josh get married at 19? Most fundie guys are single at that age, trying to start a business cutting down trees, towing cars, or plowing fields (I know, there is that weird kid who got married at 17, but that is just weird!). I can't think of another one who was married at that age.

 

I think that Josh was married off due to his "sin in the camp", and I think that his oh-so-horrid-sin was porn (nothing to base this on, other than Josh is lazy and self serving, porn can be, too). I think that JB and J'chelle decided that it was better to get him married than to have him "burn in his passion" (or whatever Peter said about that).

 

If the daughters aren't married just because the parents want to keep them home for slaves, why isn't JD married yet? He's 22, 3 years older than Josh was when he got married, and either kid number 2 or 3, and he has his own business, so it would seem the right time to go a-courtin'. While I fully believe that JB and M want to keep the girls home as slaves, I think that they want to keep all of the kids home. I think that the Duggars will use marriage as "problem solvers", I think that Jana will find a guy at ATI (as a fix for what looks like depression) and will be next. After that, it will be Josiah (for being too flamboyant) and then Joy (for being a tomboy). After that it will be whatever J'id won't conform to gender stereotypes or can't smile all of the time because they really want to be an engineer instead of a car salesman, or if the Duggars can't afford all of the kids any more.

[RR88]

Josiah and Joy are not going to get married before Jill will. Joy is what, 13 years old? No way will she and Josiah be "next" after Jana.

[Elle]

You bring up a good point that marriage could be used as a way to "fix" someone. But I do think the older girls will be at home for a long long time because they just don't have as much time to meet anyone. Jana is "lucky" for getting sent away because it gives her the chance to socialize, but the rest of the girls aren't so "lucky." Smuggar's an attention-whore who had the time to meet girls, so of course he went for it. I don't think the girls will be so fortunate.

I think JD wouldn't want a great public deal made out of his own wedding, which getting married during TLC-time would mean.

[HOTW]

I doubt that Josh's sin was porn, I highly suspect it was masturbation which is why they let him marry at 20, to put it in the right place per se. I read somewhere that they encourage their kids to come to them and talk about "desires" and they consider Masturbation undesirable. So since I bet he kept wacking off so they decided marriage was the best thing for him!

[pixydust]

I doubt that Josh's sin was porn, I highly suspect it was masturbation which is why they let him marry at 20, to put it in the right place per se. I read somewhere that they encourage their kids to come to them and talk about "desires" and they consider Masturbation undesirable. So since I bet he kept wacking off so they decided marriage was the best thing for him!

I meant to include masterbation with the porn....ok, eww, picture I didn't need in my head!

Josiah and Joy are not going to get married before Jill will. Joy is what, 13 years old? No way will she and Josiah be "next" after Jana.

Josiah will be 16 in August and Joy will be 15 in October.....I could see Joy being pushed into marriage in 3.5 years, while Jill (who would only be 24) is still at home taking care of Josie and trying to help Michelle through impossible pregnancies.

[Seven Severn]

Weren't Josh and Anna both 21 when they got married? Anna had told her father that she wasn't even going to think about courting until she was 21. Josh proposed on her birthday. Or am I not remembering correctly? 21 is still waaaaaaay too young.

[lexiloumarie]

We talk a lot here about why the Duggar girls aren't courting/getting married. I think that we are asking the wrong question, after all they are still very young (Jana is 22? That is still young, even in fundie land). I think that the question is why did Josh get married at 19? Most fundie guys are single at that age, trying to start a business cutting down trees, towing cars, or plowing fields (I know, there is that weird kid who got married at 17, but that is just weird!). I can't think of another one who was married at that age.

I think that Josh was married off due to his "sin in the camp", and I think that his oh-so-horrid-sin was porn (nothing to base this on, other than Josh is lazy and self serving, porn can be, too). I think that JB and J'chelle decided that it was better to get him married than to have him "burn in his passion" (or whatever Peter said about that).

If the girls aren't married just because the parents want to keep them home for slaves, why isn't JD married yet? He's 22, 3 years older than Josh was when he got married, and either kid number 2 or 3, and he has his own business, so it would seem the right time to go a-courtin'. While I fully believe that JB and M want to keep the girls home as slaves, I think that they want to keep all of the kids home. I think that the Duggars will use marriage as "problem solvers", I think that Jana will find a guy at ATI (as a fix for what looks like depression) and will be next. After that, it will be Josiah (for being too flamboyant) and then Joy (for being a tomboy). After that it will be whatever J'id won't conform to gender stereotypes or can't smile all of the time because they really want to be an engineer instead of a car salesman, or if the Duggars can't afford all of the kids any more.

All of the Smith/Morton/sanders except Cleve were married by 23ish. Rachel was 17 and Wes was 18. It really depends on the family.

[Lana]

Josh and Anna were both 20.

They got married in September 2008. Both were born in 1988 (march and june, respectively).

[Kitty]

Part of it is that Jim Bob has been marketing the family as a unit, and they have to stay together at all costs. I think Josh was allowed to get married at 20 just because of the "sin in the camp" thing, and I wouldn't be surprised if the fact that his house and business are owned by family has something to do with it as well. Josh can appear to be a successful, upstanding adult on the show, when in reality he's still under JB's umbrella of authority/protection/whatever Gothard says. It was all about image, plus Josh and Anna may have actually had feelings for each other.

John isn't married, partly because he is a bit reserved, and partly because he just doesn't have opportunities to meet people except a few times a year. He could be deliberately putting it off until the show ends. Or, since he's stuck with his family whenever they meet other people, he just hasn't had the chance to really meet and get close to someone. I wouldn't be surprised if he's had a few courtships already; he seems pretty introverted and if that's the case I doubt he'd want to marry someone he doesn't feel close to. I also wouldn't be surprised at all if JB and M are borrowing money from him, by having him put all of his earning in a bank account controlled by them. Jim Bob and Michelle are well aware that the TLC gravy train is coming to a stop; they're going to take advantage of the savings once it does, and poor John will be under their thumb forever- but earning more since all the trips will have ended.

I think Jana has the same problems JD does, but she's been allowed to go husband-hunting because of A) possible depression or B) viewers are asking why Jana is unmarried at 22 when Josh was married at 20. I think it's both, and the Duggars may well use marriage as a problem-solver. Also, getting one of the girls married off will keep the cameras on them longer, and maybe they will be able to marry JD off eventually.

As for the other J'slaves, Michelle needs their free labor too much and is probably pissed about Jana going husband-hunting. However, Josie's turning 3 this year and might actually be able to do some chores, which lightens the burden on the J'slaves. I will be surprised, though, if they all don't court before Josiah and Joy do.

Josiah and Joy will probably be married off to maintain the family's image much like Josh. Any viewers wondering "But why haven't Jill through Joseph been married yet?" will get this answer "Josiah and Joy just found the right people at the right time, and who are we to question God's will?" Of course, that will be a few years from now, the little girls will be older, and the J'slaves won't be needed around the house. This is assuming that another kid isn't born, but even in that event, Joy would be its buddy.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Weren't Josh and Anna both 21 when they got married? Anna had told her father that she wasn't even going to think about courting until she was 21. Josh proposed on her birthday. Or am I not remembering correctly? 21 is still waaaaaaay too young.

I believe she said she didn't want to be engaged until she was 20. Which is why when Josh proposed on her 20th birthday 20 seemed like a very arbitrary number, and she sure didn't wait long. Then again she got married 3 months after her engagement, at 20, so Josh & Anna always seemed like they were in a rush to me. Mack was born when they were 21 right? That's a lot to get used to in a short time.

[Miggy]

I believe she said she didn't want to be engaged until she was 20. Which is why when Josh proposed on her 20th birthday 20 seemed like a very arbitrary number, and she sure didn't wait long. Then again she got married 3 months after her engagement, at 20, so Josh & Anna always seemed like they were in a rush to me. Mack was born when they were 21 right? That's a lot to get used to in a short time.

I thought Anna promised her father she wouldn't court/get engaged (not sure which) until she was twenty. I think I remember Michelle saying something to her along the lines of "Remember how you promised your daddy you wouldn't court until you were twenty and then it was on your 20th birthday Josh proposed?" It was like Michelle was saying God obviously blessed Anna with Josh. I think it was the episode where they drove from Florida to Arkansas, then had hand sex on the lounge while talking to the family.

Please correct me if I have gone mad and this is wrong.

[Feberin]

I think the family was eager to get rid of Josh so the encouraged his choice to court Anna. However I think the bigger problem are the children after Josh for various reasons aren't the type to marry young. JD, Jana and Joseph are both fairly shy and quiet. Jill is a huge help around the house and I think doing most of the work caring for the younger children. Without her the family would have trouble functioning. I think Jessa, and Jinger stand the best chance for getting married off soon. They have are outgoing enough that they would put on a good show for viewers. Imagine JD getting married. He's just mutter simple responses to questions and not really engage the cameras like Josh. Can you see JB and him having the lego talk on camera?

[mebeforee]

Which is why when Josh proposed on her 20th birthday 20 seemed like a very arbitrary number, and she sure didn't wait long. Then again she got married 3 months after her engagement, at 20, so Josh & Anna always seemed like they were in a rush to me. Mack was born when they were 21 right? That's a lot to get used to in a short time.

From what I've read, most Quiverfull engagements are very short. Courtship happens before engagement for the kids to get to know each other (though they are never alone, so how well they really know each other is up for debate), and then they have a VERY short engagement to discourage "temptation". Once they're engaged they're almost less trusted because the parents tend to think that being engaged makes it harder for them to abstain from having sex.

[Witsec7]

I think the family was eager to get rid of Josh so the encouraged his choice to court Anna. However I think the bigger problem are the children after Josh for various reasons aren't the type to marry young. JD, Jana and Joseph are both fairly shy and quiet. Jill is a huge help around the house and I think doing most of the work caring for the younger children. Without her the family would have trouble functioning. I think Jessa, and Jinger stand the best chance for getting married off soon. They have are outgoing enough that they would put on a good show for viewers. Imagine JD getting married. He's just mutter simple responses to questions and not really engage the cameras like Josh. Can you see JB and him having the lego talk on camera?

I think it was important that they unload Josh before he screwed up publicly and did something that would/could limit the family's ability to earn money from TLC.

[VintageJen1984]

I believe she said she didn't want to be engaged until she was 20. Which is why when Josh proposed on her 20th birthday 20 seemed like a very arbitrary number, and she sure didn't wait long. Then again she got married 3 months after her engagement, at 20, so Josh & Anna always seemed like they were in a rush to me. Mack was born when they were 21 right? That's a lot to get used to in a short time.

What makes 20 seem like an arbitrary number, as opposed to any other age? 'Round here most girls who don't go to college are married before they would have graduated college, and those who do go to college get married right after. Some get married before graduation and keep going to college. (I am an old, old maid, never married at 27.) Most people graduate college between 21 and 22. So those that don't go or marry before they graduate are married around 20.

[geniebelle6901]

If Michelle has no more babies (sorry, but can't completely rule out the possibility no matter how grim the stats are) and the show gets canceled, the older Duggar kids will probably be married off within months of each other. Jana is already at Gothard HQs, there was a rumor that JD was courting Anna Hackel, if that's not true, not then he's next. Then it's only a matter of time before we see Jill, Jessa, and Jinger sent off to Gothard HQs to find a husband. By that time Joseph, Josiah, and Joy Anna will be old enough to handle the little howlers, who actually won't be so little anymore. The only way I see this show continuing is if Jana, JD, or one of the other older girls start courting and eventually get engaged and married. But that's a great big IF. The whole Jubilee fiasco created a massive backlash against them, so I don't think we'll hear any news on that front until after the show is canceled. And I do believe it's probably headed to the chopping block already.

Also despite what what we've been led to believe, I don't think the Duggars and Bateses get along at all with the exception of the little ones. So, I don't see any courtships/engagements/marriages between those families...period. Their "meetings" look very forced, and it it is very evident that Michelle and Kelly are at best civil to each other. JB is also loves to kind of brag about his brood and wealth in front of Gil. It's also very clear that the older kids on both sides don't get along at all and are just being civil for the cameras. Didn't Jill (?) make a remark about the different styles of music they play in a snooty tone? Even with the Bates' show premiering in August, I don't see the dynamics between those families changing. I also don't see the Bates' show lasting very long, unless Kelly pops out a few more babies and some of their older kids start courting. Now if they had started out like the Duggars with a 14 and counting special first and worked their way gradually to a series, it would be different.

I've heard talk that JB will never allow his girls to marry "down". Well, after the show is canceled, which direction does he thing his family will go? It certainly won't be up. And...any money he has put away won't last long with a family that size. So, the girls are going to have to settle for whatever young men will have them (after going through JB of course). I personally hope they stage a full scale rebellion and leave the family and lifestyle for good. Hopefully, they have someone on the outside that will help them. Maybe Anna's siblings who have left the QF/Gothard/ATI movement can help them or help them find sympathetic people willing to help.

[Lainey]

What's this about Jana going husband-hunting? I don't watch the show because it's boring as hell, but I'm interested in case any of them ever cut and run.

[Miggy]

I personally hope they stage a full scale rebellion and leave the family and lifestyle for good. Hopefully, they have someone on the outside that will help them. Maybe Anna's siblings who have left the QF/Gothard/ATI movement can help them or help them find sympathetic people willing to help.

Michelle's family all seem very normal so there are a lot of aunts, uncles and cousins that would probably jump in to help if a Duggar-escapee needed it. They would be very vunerable if they left as they are very naive but also well known, even if only as D-list celebs. I think there are plenty of cheap media groups who would love to take advantage of them if they left. They will need worldy people (oh, the horror) around them to protect them.

[geniebelle6901]

What's this about Jana going husband-hunting? I don't watch the show because it's boring as hell, but I'm interested in case any of them ever cut and run.

Jana has been sent to Gothard Headquarters as an intern, which is where most young Gothard/ATI memebers go to find someone to court and eventually marry. This is what happened to Anna's sister Priscilla.

ETA last sentence

[geniebelle6901]

Michelle's family all seem very normal so there are a lot of aunts, uncles and cousins that would probably jump in to help if a Duggar-escapee needed it. They would be very vunerable if they left as they are very naive but also well known, even if only as D-list celebs. I think there are plenty of cheap media groups who would love to take advantage of them if they left. They will need worldy people (oh, the horror) around them to protect them.

Exactly! Which is why I suggested Anna's siblings who have left Gothard/ATI or friends of said siblings who are sympathetic enough to help.

[geniebelle6901]

Now that I think about it, telling their story to the media might not be a bad idea, if they can tell their story to a major media outlet and not a tabloid. Not only could that help them financially enough to get on their feet, but it could bust bust the QF, patriarchy, Gothard/ATI, VF, etc. wide open, and force people to take their blinders off. But first they would need somebody to take them in and help them get on their feet.

[Triplet3]

Or maybe Josh just really wanted the physical intimacy of marriage, so got married as soon as he was allowed, and the Duggar girls just have impossibly high standards when it comes to men. Doesn't one of the books have a list of all the things they're looking for in a future husband? It was discussed on FJ once and I seem to remember it looked pretty hard to live up to.

Also, I thought an FJer (can't remember who, sorry) had done some research and proved that this whole 'sin in the camp' thing didn't actually relate to the Duggars but to a family they were friendly with at the time?

[Lainey]

Jana has been sent to Gothard Headquarters as an intern, which is where most young Gothard/ATI memebers go to find someone to court and eventually marry. This is what happened to Anna's sister Priscilla.

ETA last sentence

Thanks. How do we know she was sent as opposed to chose to go? Has this been discussed on the show at all? When did she start? What do the interns do there?

[helloemi]

Getting married at 20 and having the first baby at 21 would be a shock to someone raised in "secular society", but to an ATI woman, they have been raised their whole lives for this. The camera only shows so much, but I expect that ATI girls are taught to put up with a lot of shit from men. Even at my very liberal church, some women still believe that you are to remain silent and pray that your man will change (bullshit I know). I'm guessing that Anna does a lot of praying.

Jana really does seem depressed. When it is crammed down your throat from a young age that all you are good for is to get married and raise babies, becoming an old maid is a realistic fear.

[geniebelle6901]

How do we know she was sent as opposed to chose to go? Has this been discussed on the show at all? When did she start? What do the interns do there?

Here's the thread where it was discussed: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9236&hilit=jana+gothard+headquarters. If you read the thread, there is also mention of it being on another forum, but I haven't checked it out yet.