Happy Birthday Slutwalk!

[tropaka]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/119 ... women?bn=1

 

One year since this movement started in response to a cop's comment that if women wouldn't dress provacitvely, they wouldn't be raped.

 

edited because I initially blamed a lawyer - the statement was made to law students.

[Eclipse]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1194004--mallick-slutwalk-cheerfully-defuses-hatred-against-women?bn=1

One year since this movement started in response to a lawyer's comment that if women wouldn't dress provacitvely, they wouldn't be raped.

Lawyers get a lot of dirt thrown on their reputations but it was a cop not a lawyer who made the comments that started everything.

[Minerva]

Yep, it was a cop. Also, birthday cake!

[deelaem]

I'd give anything if they'd change the damn name of the movement.

[valsa]

I'd give anything if they'd change the damn name of the movement.

I like the name, so I gotta hope they don't change it.

[GolightlyGrrl]

I like the name, so I gotta hope they don't change it.

Slut may be a provocative word, but it does get attention! It's all marketing. Last year I participated in a slut walk and it was so awesome to meet women and men who support the cause.

[bananacat]

I like the name. "Slut" is a word that we need to reclaim. It's not just about marketing and getting attention; it's about using a word to reclaim some of the power that that very word has taken from us when used against us. It's about saying that you can't rape any women, even the ones whose sex lives society disapproves of.

[holothuroidea]

I'd give anything if they'd change the damn name of the movement.

I think they are trying to take the power away from the word "slut," and I think it's working.

[valsa]

It's about saying that you can't rape any women, even the ones whose sex lives society disapproves of.

Exactly. Slutwalks are in response to someone who basically said that if a woman is dressed a certain way, it's not really rape (because it's her fault for dressing that way and she deserved it)

Slutwalks, including the provocative name, are about saying that even if a woman is half naked (or all naked), she can still be a rape victim. Even if a woman is married to her attacker, she can still be a rape victim. Even if a woman is sexually promiscuous (ie- a slut), she can still be a rape victim.

[deelaem]

I wish I could believe that using the name SlutWalk does take the negative connotations of the word, but I think women are fooling themselves about that. Believe me, no man who would call a woman that name in the first place is saying "Gosh, we were wrong to call women sluts the way we do, look how powerful they really are. Let's not rape them anymore!" What they are really saying is just more of the same - ridiculing and demeaning women with dehumanizing speech just the way they always do. Do you see the cop who originally said that marching along with them and proclaiming his change of heart? Of course not. The men who are participating are the ones who wouldn't openly call a woman a slut in the first place.

Celebrating the word slut just seems like more fun feminism to me. And fun feminism is just what sexist men want.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I wish I could believe that using the name SlutWalk does take the negative connotations of the word, but I think women are fooling themselves about that. Believe me, no man who would call a woman that name in the first place is saying "Gosh, we were wrong to call women sluts the way we do, look how powerful they really are. Let's not rape them anymore!" What they are really saying is just more of the same - ridiculing and demeaning women with dehumanizing speech just the way they always do. Do you see the cop who originally said that marching along with them and proclaiming his change of heart? Of course not. The men who are participating are the ones who wouldn't openly call a woman a slut in the first place.

Celebrating the word slut just seems like more fun feminism to me. And fun feminism is just what sexist men want.

I'm with you, though I understand why others disagree. I don't think the organizers have this in mind, but when it comes to public perception, I think using the word "slut" gives weight to the dichotomy, to the either/or idea that women are chaste or they are whores and there is no inbetween, i.e. she cannot appreciate her own sexuality without being a slut.

[valsa]

I wish I could believe that using the name SlutWalk does take the negative connotations of the word, but I think women are fooling themselves about that. Believe me, no man who would call a woman that name in the first place is saying "Gosh, we were wrong to call women sluts the way we do, look how powerful they really are. Let's not rape them anymore!" What they are really saying is just more of the same - ridiculing and demeaning women with dehumanizing speech just the way they always do. Do you see the cop who originally said that marching along with them and proclaiming his change of heart? Of course not. The men who are participating are the ones who wouldn't openly call a woman a slut in the first place.

Celebrating the word slut just seems like more fun feminism to me. And fun feminism is just what sexist men want.

What would you want it to be called? And what name given to these walks would cause a man who thinks a woman's clothing can make someone rape her to see the light?

As much as you may look down on "fun feminism", this did bring mainstream attention to the issue and many people agreed with what the slutwalkers were walking for, even if they didn't like the name. It's very easy to complain but have you do something that's accomplished more?

[holothuroidea]

I wish I could believe that using the name SlutWalk does take the negative connotations of the word, but I think women are fooling themselves about that. Believe me, no man who would call a woman that name in the first place is saying "Gosh, we were wrong to call women sluts the way we do, look how powerful they really are. Let's not rape them anymore!" What they are really saying is just more of the same - ridiculing and demeaning women with dehumanizing speech just the way they always do. Do you see the cop who originally said that marching along with them and proclaiming his change of heart? Of course not. The men who are participating are the ones who wouldn't openly call a woman a slut in the first place.

If someone called me a slut 2 years ago I would have been hurt by it, but now I would just laugh and say "yeah, so."

It might be because I'm 2 years older than I was, but I really think the meaning of the word has changed for women and that means something to me. One less word to shame us with. The intent of the people who use the word may not have changed, but it has changed the effect it has.

Celebrating the word slut just seems like more fun feminism to me. And fun feminism is just what sexist men want.

I do understand how frustrating "fun feminism" is for very serious feminists, but it may very well be a necessary step in the very slow process of social change.

Also, I have never met a "sexist man." I think our social system is sexist. Men and women tend to be equally sexist because of that, but people who are sexist are generally blind to it and would never identify as such. Not even fundies. In order for someone to want something because he is a "sexist man," he would have to be making his preferences while identifying himself as sexist and I don't think such a thing exists. I hope that made sense!

[deelaem]

What would you want it to be called? And what name given to these walks would cause a man who thinks a woman's clothing can make someone rape her to see the light?

As much as you may look down on "fun feminism", this did bring mainstream attention to the issue and many people agreed with what the slutwalkers were walking for, even if they didn't like the name. It's very easy to complain but have you do something that's accomplished more?

I still have no idea why you love to attack me so much, but whatever. I'd hoped this would be a decent debate.

You have no idea what I do for women's rights, so don't assume I don't do anything. As for what else to call this? I can think of a ton of things, such as whatever happened to "Take Back the Night"? Try thinking of it like this, what if this were a movement in the African-American community, would it be ok to call it "Nigger Walk"? How much would racists love that?

The point being that you don't change people's minds about things by embracing their hate speech. And as I said up top, which has been ignored, I don't object to the walk or ideals at all. I just object to using name of it.

[deelaem]

If someone called me a slut 2 years ago I would have been hurt by it, but now I would just laugh and say "yeah, so."

It might be because I'm 2 years older than I was, but I really think the meaning of the word has changed for women and that means something to me. One less word to shame us with. The intent of the people who use the word may not have changed, but it has changed the effect it has.

I do understand how frustrating "fun feminism" is for very serious feminists, but it may very well be a necessary step in the very slow process of social change.

Also, I have never met a "sexist man." I think our social system is sexist. Men and women tend to be equally sexist because of that, but people who are sexist are generally blind to it and would never identify as such. Not even fundies. In order for someone to want something because he is a "sexist man," he would have to be making his preferences while identifying himself as sexist and I don't think such a thing exists. I hope that made sense!

Sorry, but this kind of blind apologist statement has left me mind-boggled. We are obviously talking from two different ends of the feminist spectrum, so it's best if I leave you to your beliefs.

[deelaem]

I'm with you, though I understand why others disagree. I don't think the organizers have this in mind, but when it comes to public perception, I think using the word "slut" gives weight to the dichotomy, to the either/or idea that women are chaste or they are whores and there is no inbetween, i.e. she cannot appreciate her own sexuality without being a slut.

Yeah, I understand why they disagree, too. I just think it's because it wasn't well thought-out. And I daresay that in our patriarchy, the word slut is more derogatory than the word whore. The patriarchy has a sick "respect' for prostitution, because it fits so well the construct that women are the sex class.

[valsa]

I still have no idea why you love to attack me so much, but whatever. I'd hoped this would be a decent debate.

Attack you? That's rich, coming from someone who once called me a rape apologist. Just because I, as a feminist, disagree with you, another feminist, on almost every aspect of feminism doesn't mean I'm attacking you. Get over yourself and try not to be so emotional and illogical :roll:

You have no idea what I do for women's rights, so don't assume I don't do anything. As for what else to call this? I can think of a ton of things, such as whatever happened to "Take Back the Night"? Try thinking of it like this, what if this were a movement in the African-American community, would it be ok to call it "Nigger Walk"? How much would racists love that?

I never said you don't do anything for feminism. However, I doubt you've started a nation-wide movement that has captured the attention of even mainstream media. And that's a very important word there- attention. "Take Back The Night"? Boring. "Anti-Fun-Feminist-Walk"? Boring. How many times have there been stories of police, lawyers, judges, and other people in authority spouting the same crap the cop that inspired the Slutwalk? How many of those stories have gotten attention beyond feminist blogs? Slutwalk not only has a good message, its' provocative name garners attention to the cause much better than some boring, No-Fun-Ever name could. Also, though there's nothing called a "Nigger Walk", the black community has long been working to take back the word "nigger". Women taking back the word “slut†or “bitch†is nothing new.

The point being that you don't change people's minds about things by embracing their hate speech. And as I said up top, which has been ignored, I don't object to the walk or ideals at all. I just object to using name of it.

The real point is that you don't change people's minds by a simple name, not matter what it is.

[Witsec1]

I still have no idea why you love to attack me so much, but whatever. I'd hoped this would be a decent debate.

You have no idea what I do for women's rights, so don't assume I don't do anything. As for what else to call this? I can think of a ton of things, such as whatever happened to "Take Back the Night"? Try thinking of it like this, what if this were a movement in the African-American community, would it be ok to call it "Nigger Walk"? How much would racists love that?

The point being that you don't change people's minds about things by embracing their hate speech. And as I said up top, which has been ignored, I don't object to the walk or ideals at all. I just object to using name of it.

This is essentially what was done with the word "queer". - the LBGT community took the word and reclaimed it. So it can work.

Also, I think the deal with calling it a slutwalk, and having all kinds and ages of women participate, does actually take away the power of the word to shame. It's like the (unfortunately mostly apocryphal) story of the community where everybody decided put on the yellow star, not just the Jews. It takes away the power of "the Man" to determine that only certain females have the right not to be raped.

[valsa]

This is essentially what was done with the word "queer". - the LBGT community took the word and reclaimed it. So it can work.

Also, I think the deal with calling it a slutwalk, and having all kinds and ages of women participate, does actually take away the power of the word to shame. It's like the (unfortunately mostly apocryphal) story of the community where everybody decided put on the yellow star, not just the Jews. It takes away the power of "the Man" to determine that only certain females have the right not to be raped.

I'm a bad, bad lesbian- I forgot all about all the names the gay community has taken back. Not just "queer", but in some circles we're also taking back "faggot" and "homo".

[holothuroidea]

Sorry, but this kind of blind apologist statement has left me mind-boggled. We are obviously talking from two different ends of the feminist spectrum, so it's best if I leave you to your beliefs.

I don't really consider myself on the feminist spectrum at all (Is there a feminist spectrum?) as I am woefully uneducated on the matter. To call myself "feminist" would be an insult to people who know what they're talking about. So if I boggled your mind with my ignorance it was a complete accident.

I was engaging you in conversation because I was interested in what you had to say. Frankly, the dismissal kind of sucked. Do you really believe that people who do not feel the same way you do about an issue are not worth talking to? (As a disclaimer, I have no idea how I feel about the issue, because I'm not educated enough about it to take a stance, which is why I am interested in your side of the argument.)

Anyway, I don't think I was being "apologist" in any way. Blind I will agree to, though. I don't know any men who identify as sexist, that doesn't mean they are not sexist, but to say that "sexist men" love to see "fun feminism" doesn't make sense to me. Maybe you could explain?

[ElphabaGalinda]

I'm a bad, bad lesbian- I forgot all about all the names the gay community has taken back. Not just "queer", but in some circles we're also taking back "faggot" and "homo".

I love the idea of reclaiming words. I think words only have power if you give them power. It's a gradual process, but you can take a negative word and gradually turn the meaning towards the positive. Queer is a perfect example. I never remember hearing it used as a negative, and only know it as a way to describe a sexual orientation/identity. And I'm friends with lots of queer people in my age group, and i don't think they'd know it as the negative word it once was. I'm hoping that's what will happen with the word slut in future generations and this is a step towards that. There's also a movement here to reclaim the word dyke, the day before our pride parade we have what's called the dyke march, which is nearly as well attended and just as well respected. That word still makes me uncomfortable because I have heard it used negatively, and directed towards me, so it hasn't been totally reclaimed yet. But it could happen.

It makes me think of this book by Meg Cabot, where the main character was called a slut, and absolutely everyone in the cafteria, even the guys, no matter their sexual history, were standing up saying if she was a slut so were they. I found that very cool for a YA book. If everyone says they're a slut it's like saying the word doesn't really mean anything anymore. Whatever you call it, Slutwalk is an international movement that's gotten a lot of attention and done so much positive. Its the kind of thing that needs to happen, and the name isn't going to change what a great thing it is. It makes me proud to be from the city where Slutwalk started :)

[Witsec1]

[quote="ElphabaGalinda"

It makes me think of this book by Meg Cabot, where the main character was called a slut, and absolutely everyone in the cafteria, even the guys, no matter their sexual history, were standing up saying if she was a slut so were they. /quote]

This is exactly what Slutwalk means to me.

Also, I have never met a "sexist man." I think our social system is sexist. Men and women tend to be equally sexist because of that, but people who are sexist are generally blind to it and would never identify as such. Not even fundies. In order for someone to want something because he is a "sexist man," he would have to be making his preferences while identifying himself as sexist and I don't think such a thing exists. I hope that made sense!

No, it didn't make sense to me, and I expect you haven't thought it through. What you said is that if a man prefers an allegedly sexist state of affairs, unless he openly identifies as a sexist while stating his preference, he is not a sexist man. Is that what you meant to say? By that standard, there are no sexist men or racist white people.

And yes, because sexism is pervasive, women can be sexist too, but that doesn't mean that men and women are "equally" sexist. Men have greater wealth and power due to sexism.

[holothuroidea]

No, it didn't make sense to me, and I expect you haven't thought it through. What you said is that if a man prefers an allegedly sexist state of affairs, unless he openly identifies as a sexist while stating his preference, he is not a sexist man. Is that what you meant to say? By that standard, there are no sexist men or racist white people.

And yes, because sexism is pervasive, women can be sexist too, but that doesn't mean that men and women are "equally" sexist. Men have greater wealth and power due to sexism.

NO! No no no no that is not what I meant! :lol:

Let me see if I can explain better...

The specific sentence I was addressing was,

And fun feminism is just what sexist men want.

My issue is with the way this is worded. It sounds as though there is a group of men who identify as Sexists who are like, "Yes, fun feminism is really excellent for us!"

That's just not the way it is. At least not in my experience. We live in a sexist society, and we are all indoctrinated into that from birth. If we are all indoctrinated into this sexist society it doesn't make sense to single out "sexist men" as though they are a unique and defined group.

I also don't think that Men benefit from sexism or patriarchy, and that is a strong opinion I have based on personal experience. Money and power aside, patriarchy oppresses equally.

[Boogalou]

*snip*

I also don't think that Men benefit from sexism or patriarchy, and that is a strong opinion I have based on personal experience. Money and power aside, patriarchy oppresses equally.

Really? Because if it oppressed everyone equally then... everyone would be equal. What are you trying to say here? Sorry but I really don't understand this. Are you saying men don't benefit from patriarchy? That everyone is equally oppressed? Or that men don't benefit but women still lose out? Whatever this means I don't think patriarchy oppresses equally or else it wouldn't be oppression.

But since we are on the subject, I ran across this today and was looking for a place to share it and I have found it. The pay gap between men and women adds up to $430 000 + over one's lifetime. This displays the very real consequences of that pay gap:

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/ ... aphic.html

[holothuroidea]

Really? Because if it oppressed everyone equally then... everyone would be equal. What are you trying to say here? Sorry but I really don't understand this. Are you saying men don't benefit from patriarchy? That everyone is equally oppressed? Or that men don't benefit but women still lose out? Whatever this means I don't think patriarchy oppresses equally or else it wouldn't be oppression.

:(

What do you think happens to children in patriarchy? Do boys not grow into men? Are they not abused?

Men suffer under the rigidity of patriarchal gender roles, too. They are not entitled to more individuality than women are.

I do agree that men have more money and more power than women. That's just a fact. I don't agree that having more money and more power makes you less oppressed.

I also have a much deeper reason for believing this, but it is my husbands story and not my own so I won't share it here. He's been far more hurt by the patriarchy than I have, and I grew up with a single mother in poverty.

As far as my use of the term "equally" I mean equal in magnitude but not necessarily effect.