When Courtship Fails - Thoughts from Natalie Nyquist

[Austin]

As usual, Stacy is less than honest. In a comment to Natalie, she describes the McDonalds' definition of courtship as follows:

This definition conveniently leaves out her & James' assertion (at the time of daughter Tiffany's first engagement) that betrothal in the courtship system was really the same as marriage, and that if a betrothal is broken it's the same as divorce.

Don't go looking for this on their blogs because these two serial liars swiftly purged their online writings of any reference to this after Tiffany became engaged a second time, which ended in an apparently happy marriage.

This is why chances are excellent that Stacy's ever-changing description of how she & James met and got married is larded with falsehoods still, even after she was finally forced to admit they were both previously married to others.

Hypocrisy - thy name is Stacy McDonald.

OMG, it can't be stated often enough what a huge hypocrite Stacy McDonald is. :!:

[LucySnowe]

Hey, they're actually posting about this!

http://ylcf.org/2012/06/courtship-dispelling-the-myths/

[kb2]

Hey, they're actually posting about this!

http://ylcf.org/2012/06/courtship-dispelling-the-myths/

It's good to be able to change your mind under the pressure of actual life events, and it's good she's trying not to pass on beliefs that harmed her. But I just went ahead and called my "season of exploration" dating, and everything worked out fine.

[LucySnowe]

But I just went ahead and called my "season of exploration" dating, and everything worked out fine.

Some of my friends refer to their Seasons of Exploration as 'drunkenly fucking random pick-ups' but I suspect that will not be adopted by any of the YLCF maidens. 8-)

[Guest Anonymous]

This bit makes me go, "eh?" :think:

Perhaps I can illustrate this truth with a glimpse into my first courtship. I was not initially attracted to the first man who came to court me. Yet, after truly seeking God’s heart for the situation, I felt He was calling me to love this man. So I said ‘yes’ to a ‘season of exploration’ — to a courtship. As the months passed, my choice to love selflessly bore fruit and I began to find great joy in our relationship. Then, suddenly, the Lord made it just as clear that He was calling me out of the relationship, to relinquish my desire for marital love, and to only love this man as a brother in Christ. For months I blamed myself for my broken heart, believing I’d been at fault to become emotionally attached to him before I was actually engaged. Until the day that I finally understood that my love for him had not been sin — my fault was in setting a standard higher than God’s.

So someone approached her to whom she was not attracted.

I wonder what 'signs' or other communication from God made her think that she was "called" "to love selflessly"? A bible falling open at a certain verse? A voice from heaven? A parent breathing down her neck? Fear that the clock was ticking....?

And how then did the Lord call her out of the relationship? And the explanation... that she did this because she had set "a standard higher than God's" - what does that mean, eh?

The whole article uses a lot of word strings that look and sound like sentences, but they don't add up to coherent ideas.

[erunerune]

Yea, they never just say what something is, it has to be dressed up in flowery fundie jargon. I guess they know that speaking plainly smacks of, I don't know, truth or something.

[LucySnowe]

Yea, they never just say what something is, it has to be dressed up in flowery fundie jargon. I guess they know that speaking plainly smacks of, I don't know, truth or something.

Or that they made an autonomous decision rather than surrendering to God's will.

'This guy liked me but I didn't like him In That Way, and then I really did like him In That Way, but things didn't work out and I was really sad about it.' - same story, minus God

[fundiefan2012]

They're just trying to one-up Natalie--unsuccessfully. They still push courtship.

[flojo]

They're just trying to one-up Natalie--unsuccessfully. They still push courtship.

Hers is authentic. Not flowery. They can't one up it.

I do give them (teeny tiny) props for not endorsing the concept of being emotionally attached to one man, though.

[hoipolloi]

Resurrecting this old thread to share something that just popped up on the feed reader from the occasional blogger at James Ference Is A Liar: http://www.womansavers.com/p_guyDetails.asp?id=15307.

An excerpt from someone who clearly knew James Ference well - too well:

This man is a sociopath. He's a Sweetheart Scam Artist. He is NOT capable of real feelings/emotions. He comes off as loving, sensitive, romatntic, passionate, and more. But it's short-termed and before you know it, you've paid his bills and he's gone without warning or notice. He internalizes what he's really thinking and by the time he shares his thoughts with you, he's mentally and emotionally exited the relationship even though he was telling you he loved you and wanted to spend the rest of his life with you the day before. He propeses marraige within days to a few weeks of knowing you. He's a pathological liar. He'll promise to change, but never does. He's worthless. He's evil. Stay away from him. He is NOT who he says he is. He's flat broke all the time and always spending his money instead of paying his bills. He's a leach that will destroy you financially, mentally, and emotionally. He is a CON-ARTIST, pathalogical liar, and a sociopath. He's VERY GOOD at being deceiving and getting you hooked on caring for him. DON'T care for him. Report him and run! He only cares about himself. He is so good as his skill that I gave him a second chance. If you are one of those people that believe in the good in people and see hope, don't trust what you see in him. What you feel may be real to you but it's not to him.

First saw this back in 2008, right after Natalie married the jerk. There was no doubt then that it was the same guy. Always wondered if Natalie and/or James saw it & somehow got it taken off the website.

[silvia]

Resurrecting this old thread to share something that just popped up on the feed reader from the occasional blogger at James Ference Is A Liar: http://www.womansavers.com/p_guyDetails.asp?id=15307.

An excerpt from someone who clearly knew James Ference well - too well:

First saw this back in 2008, right after Natalie married the jerk. There was no doubt then that it was the same guy. Always wondered if Natalie and/or James saw it & somehow got it taken off the website.

Whoa, that's pretty eviscerating. Any recent updates on James as he slimes his way to his next conquest?

[luckylibrarian]

Is he still married to Chelsea?

[bea]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was never actually married to Chelsea, was he? Technically, he was still married to Natalie.

[hoipolloi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was never actually married to Chelsea, was he? Technically, he was still married to Natalie.

Was Chelsea's "wedding" the wierd one in Halloween costumes & make-up? If so, I think you're right, Bea - James was still legally married to Natalie because their divorce wasn't final.

[fundiefan2012]

FYI, their facebook accounts are easily found by googling "Chelsea Finkelstein."

Chelsea's: https://www.facebook.com/chelsea.finkelstein

James's: https://www.facebook.com/james.david.14268

Chelsea's dad's (you can see the Halloween "wedding" pics here too, they are public: https://www.facebook.com/curt.hodapp

[Guest Anonymous]

fucking idiot. Dating works out because there's no plan for marriage! :doh: You can't go into a relationship assuming you're going to marry that person! And dating relationships AREN'T taken lightly either! jfc these people are such morons who will never admit they're wrong!

Natalie's whole post is about not believing in a stupid fucking manmade fairytale, and Erica Mueller still promotes that fucking fairytale. "There's nothing wrong with courting more than one person!" BOLLOCKS.

The hugest problem with the courtship model is that there is pressure from the first day to start planning for marriage. I've read courtship stories where the guys see a girl and ask her dad to court her, and she might have noticed him once before that, and suddenly she's in a relationship with intention of getting down the aisle. There's one I recently read where they are now married and see their honeymoon as the perfect time to get to know each other.

A lower divorce rate doesn't mean courtship works, if working means ending up in a loving relationship. It just means that the participants are pressured to stay in marriages when they're miserable and shouldn't have been married at all. I suspect there's more spousal abuse in those marriages because they don't think they can leave.

[fundiefan2012]

Okay, so I'm bored tonight. Reading FJ archives on favorite topics. Googling fundie's names to see what new juicy stuff comes up. And what-ho! Natalie Nyquist, whose blog and online presence period have been nil for months, has reappeared.

https://www.facebook.com/pursuethebeauty

http://pursuethebeauty.com/2012/10/19/i-forgot/

A little crypic, but hey, I'm glad she's happy. Goodness knows she's been through enough.

Looks like her ex-husband James Ference ain't doing quite as well.

http://jamesferenceisaliar.blogspot.com ... again.html

Okay, I'm too tired to contribute anything else of use.

[bea]

Dang. Judgment entered against James and Chelsea for almost $4,000 - wonder what they'll do now? Live out of James' car?

Glad to hear Natalie is doing all right. I hope she breaks free of the fundie world and raises her kid as a strong single mom.

[wtylcf]

Okay, so I'm bored tonight. Reading FJ archives on favorite topics. Googling fundie's names to see what new juicy stuff comes up. And what-ho! Natalie Nyquist, whose blog and online presence period have been nil for months, has reappeared.

https://www.facebook.com/pursuethebeauty

http://pursuethebeauty.com/2012/10/19/i-forgot/

A little crypic, but hey, I'm glad she's happy. Goodness knows she's been through enough.

Looks like her ex-husband James Ference ain't doing quite as well.

http://jamesferenceisaliar.blogspot.com ... again.html

Okay, I'm too tired to contribute anything else of use.

Good find! It's good to see Natalie enjoying life. Less good to see James drag Chelsea down into a pit of financial despair. It's been almost a year - time for her to get wise to his game, already!

I thought Natalie's memoir might be out already based on her GoodReads profile, but "On Desire and Longing" is merely an excerpt from her book "Quest for High Places." If the book Natalie hinted at writing is indeed going to be a sort of tell-all memoir of how she got out of fundyville (to the relative freedom!? of Orthodoxy), I'll be dying to get my heathen hands on it.

[flojo]

Dang. Judgment entered against James and Chelsea for almost $4,000 - wonder what they'll do now? Live out of James' car?

Glad to hear Natalie is doing all right. I hope she breaks free of the fundie world and raises her kid as a strong single mom.

Another victim. Poor Chelsea

[fundiefan2012]

Oh oh oh! :dances: I struck gold tonight. Anyone want to check out Natalie's first ex-husband 's very public FB? It was so easy to find I'm shocked it wasn't brought up sooner. And it's all public so clearly he doesn't care if strangers read. It 's soo clearly him for those who remember Natalie s wedding pictures.

https://m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/rick.kle ... 1546573034

Definitely good looking but you can tell he knows it. And apparently he is not single. Wonder what Natalie would think. Not that it 's any of my business!

[hoipolloi]

Oh oh oh! :dances: I struck gold tonight. Anyone want to check out Natalie's first ex-husband 's very public FB? It was so easy to find I'm shocked it wasn't brought up sooner. And it's all public so clearly he doesn't care if strangers read. It 's soo clearly him for those who remember Natalie s wedding pictures.

https://m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/rick.kle ... 1546573034

Definitely good looking but you can tell he knows it. And apparently he is not single. Wonder what Natalie would think. Not that it 's any of my business!

Great find! I'd wondered what had happened to him. Looks like he fulfilled his USAF commitment, got out, and went to law school at UNC Chapel Hill. Have to :roll: at his self-description:

About:

conservative, motivated, ambitious, go-getter, God-fearing, intelligent, kind, compassionate, sensitive, good listener, gentleman

[bea]

Bob Jones University. That explains a lot.

[silvia]

First profile link didn't work for me--here's an alternate link: facebook.com/rick.klein.96?fref=ts . Wonder if he's courting or dating in this new relationship? Also, it appears Rick graduated from BJU in 2000, but he didn't marry Natalie until the end of 2007. That's a loooong time for a supposedly celibate, uber-Christian guy to be waiting around for the perfect helpmeet. And I think he initially found Natalie much as Stephen found Meredith, by discovering her online presence and getting all excited about how submissive she seemed. Wonder what all happened with him, relationship-wise, in the ~1996-2007 period when he would have been 'eligible'? Were there deal-breakers that convinced other potential helpmeets to steer clear?

[bea]

ZOMG! What if he was having THE EVIL PREMARITAL DATING THING THAT LEADS TO KISSING BEFORE YOU'RE MARRIED?