SAHDs' biological clocks are ticking. Here's why.

[browngrl]

I wonder if the girls themselves do not play a role in this type of situation. The girls can not come out and say: I want to have a career and spend time doing things I want rather than being constantly pregnant/homeschooling/doing housework. However, if they remain SAHD's many seem to spend their time blogging, photographing, running their own little businesses. As their siblings grow up - there is less and less childcare and much of their time can be spent on their own. Running daddy's business would not be the same as being independent but it would be something other than pregnancy/childcare - and perhaps the only option if you don't really want to be a mother of many and it might be easier than submitting to a husband. It is all very passive aggressive -but if you had no other way to exert some control over your own life it might be an option.

[JuJuBee]

I also wonder if Fundie guys prefer more fundie-light/ less strict girls for another reason. Suppose he is a little tired of his father's constant control. I'm sure many of them, even if they enjoy being dominant over the women, often long for a more relaxed lifestyle. Josh Duggar certainly seems to. In this case, is the guy really going to want to follow his childhood up with a girl who has a holier-than-thou attitude? Even if she's supposed to be submissive, I'm sure she would find some passive way to protest if he wanted to enjoy an R-rated movie once in a while. As has been said, it's just a lot easier for the guy to mold the girl to his lifestyle in any way that he wants, which gives the fundie guys a lot more options.

[TinyDancer87]

I wonder if the girls themselves do not play a role in this type of situation. The girls can not come out and say: I want to have a career and spend time doing things I want rather than being constantly pregnant/homeschooling/doing housework.

With my experience in a fundamentalist church is that if a girl feels the need to be educated, she is becoming "too worldly" and is turning her back on the life that God has for you. It's completely shamming and gives you incredible guilt. These girls are brought up thinking that "worldly women go to school", tsk tsk, and "we are so much better because we live the PERFECT life and not like heathens." But it's only natural for a girl to want to experience life- so to avoid the temptation, the elders call it sin and guilt the girls into not doing it. It's extrememly hard to be a female in the church and to feel like you would go to hell if you expressed even so much as a desire to do something other than be a good wife and mother. It is just so hard, and I think these women really struggle with these desires, despite their happy smiles and "perfectness". I can tell you exactly what Anna or Jana Duggar are thinking. I know because I have friends just like them, regretting or wishing for something different.

I have a friend that wanted to be a doctor, so she took the MCAT and failed it. Twice. The church was mad at her for trying. Now her testimony is, "God does not want women to pursue such careers. He made me fail it so that I could see my ways." I feel bad for her, because she's obviously just using the church's opression as a coping mechanism.

Anyways, it's such a sad life for SAHDs. I can assure you that NO girl is content with this culture. No matter HOW much they say, "yes, I'm fine. It's God's will." Smiling and saying it's God's will is so much easier than facing reality- that they are stuck in their situation and they can't do anything about it without shamming themselves and family.

One of the realizing factors that I did not support the Duggars was when their adults continued to stay at home. Because all this time I was defending the Duggars, saying "I don't mind if they have XX amount of kids, as long as they are raising them to be productive adults that are going to support this country and bring goodness to the future." But they haven't shown that! Having adult children staying at home not learning, not working, and not contributing to their country is NOT okay! Raising children to become... um adult babies? It's completely unproductive and will not help this country at all. These girls aren't contributing at all to society. They are worse than Paris Hilton or the Kardashians, for the sole reason that THEY DON'T DO ANYTHING except stay at home! At least the celebrities give back in taxes and donations. I think God would be more happy with that then a sedentary life.

Goodness. End rant.

[SisiL78]

The sad thing is that if the Kardashian girls and Duggar girls were scored on standardized tests that the K girls would probably do better. Plus if either set lost their money and their fame the Kardashians could at least probably find work as admins or work in a shop and maybe work their way up to manager or something. The Duggar girls would have a super difficult time even with these low entry level jobs because they aren't used to being around strangers without the protection of their families. Honestly, the best thing for families like the Duggars would be to lose absolutely everything and force the kids to cope on their own... the earlier the better. Its easier for a 20 year old to find a way in the world rather than an over-sheltered 35 year old.

I for one hope they screw up their daughter's marriages more... the fewer of these QF nutjobs in the world the better...

[margiebargie]

I have a friend that wanted to be a doctor, so she took the MCAT and failed it. Twice. The church was mad at her for trying. Now her testimony is, "God does not want women to pursue such careers. He made me fail it so that I could see my ways." I feel bad for her, because she's obviously just using the church's opression as a coping mechanism.

That is just so sad. Pursuing a career as a doctor is difficult as it is - never mind trying to do it without any support whatsoever. In this case, it's negative support -actually shaming someone for wanting to be a doctor. Wow - fundies really are crazy.

I don't know where this fundie/QF thing is going to go. I predict that it will just die off. It was born as a reaction to the modernization of society - the civil rights movement, women's liberation, etc. Those changes are here to stay (I hope) and more are on the way - marriage equality, stronger secular presence, etc. Fundie superstition cannot compete with greater equality and justice.

The situation the unmarried SAHD's find themselves in really comes as no surprise. It's very sad. They never had the opportunity to choose any other way. They can't even take steps to go find their own husbands. It's pathetic really.

[lilwriter85]

The sad thing is that if the Kardashian girls and Duggar girls were scored on standardized tests that the K girls would probably do better. Plus if either set lost their money and their fame the Kardashians could at least probably find work as admins or work in a shop and maybe work their way up to manager or something. The Duggar girls would have a super difficult time even with these low entry level jobs because they aren't used to being around strangers without the protection of their families. Honestly, the best thing for families like the Duggars would be to lose absolutely everything and force the kids to cope on their own... the earlier the better. Its easier for a 20 year old to find a way in the world rather than an over-sheltered 35 year old.

I for one hope they screw up their daughter's marriages more... the fewer of these QF nutjobs in the world the better...

I agree with you. I'm not a huge fan of the Kardashians, but they are more in tune with the real world. Kris Jenner is a fame whore, but she at least encouraged her kids to get an education and those girls at least know how to deal with different types of people. The Duggar girls have a good work ethic at home, when they are caring for their siblings. But that will not help in them in the real world. They still believe in Duggar time and I can't see them being very punctual when it comes to having jobs. The only types of jobs, I can see the Duggars doing well with are cleaning service jobs. If they worked in retail or food services, I can see him freaking out or not having the skills to deal with different people and situations.

[mirele]

We know what happens when insular groups intermarry...

The FLDS have the highest rate of fumarase deficiency in the world (or so I've been told). It leads to birth defects and early child death.

The Kingston polygamist group (aka Davis County Co-Op and a bunch of other front names) practices uncle-niece marriage and believes in close marriage because they believe they have "royal blood." What they have is a couple of recessive traits that are now showing up as birth defects.

I don't think the occasional first cousin marriage is always going to result in birth defects, but when you reinforce that kind of close marriage over a period of three or four generations, you're going to have a disaster on your hands. Like with the FLDS.

[mirele]

We know what happens when insular groups intermarry...

The FLDS have the highest rate of fumarase deficiency in the world (or so I've been told). It leads to birth defects and early child death.

The Kingston polygamist group (aka Davis County Co-Op and a bunch of other front names) practices uncle-niece marriage and believes in close marriage because they believe they have "royal blood." What they have is a couple of recessive traits that are now showing up as birth defects.

I don't think the occasional first cousin marriage is always going to result in birth defects, but when you reinforce that kind of close marriage over a period of three or four generations, you're going to have a disaster on your hands. Like with the FLDS.

[silvia]

With my experience in a fundamentalist church is that if a girl feels the need to be educated, she is becoming "too worldly" and is turning her back on the life that God has for you. It's completely shamming and gives you incredible guilt. These girls are brought up thinking that "worldly women go to school", tsk tsk, and "we are so much better because we live the PERFECT life and not like heathens." But it's only natural for a girl to want to experience life- so to avoid the temptation, the elders call it sin and guilt the girls into not doing it. It's extremely hard to be a female in the church and to feel like you would go to hell if you expressed even so much as a desire to do something other than be a good wife and mother. It is just so hard, and I think these women really struggle with these desires, despite their happy smiles and "perfectness". I can tell you exactly what Anna or Jana Duggar are thinking. I know because I have friends just like them, regretting or wishing for something different...

I can assure you that NO girl is content with this culture. No matter HOW much they say, "yes, I'm fine. It's God's will." Smiling and saying it's God's will is so much easier than facing reality- that they are stuck in their situation and they can't do anything about it without shamming themselves and family.

I absolutely believe that there are plenty of fundamentalist girls living in quiet desperation, wanting to do or be something great and slowly but surely being forced into the keep-sweet, stay-at-home mold. On the other hand, there are also SAHD's singing the praises of this lifestyle from the rooftops--Miss Raquel, the Botkin girls, YLCF team members, etc. Do you think there might be some kind of Stockholm syndrome effect going on here, where the girls/women start to identify very strongly with their "captors" (ahem, parents) and espouse their authority's beliefs to anyone who will listen because it's the only way they know of to garner love and approval?

[silvia]

This reminds me of my Gender and Culture anthropology class. I can't remember the right terms, so someone can help me out. My class was read an ethnography about an Iraqi village in the 1950s called "Guests of the Sheik." The village was rural, so it was largely traditional, but slowly becoming modern.

In this society, there were unwritten rules for marriage. A woman can always marry up in class (marry someone richer or someone from a better family), but a woman can never marry down because that would shame her family. This caused problems for upper-class girls because it made the marriage possibilites smaller.

To get over the marry up-marry down conundrum, everyone was expected to marry their cousin--it was an arranged marriage from birth. Well, that all worked great until the rich men started going to college, then finding educated girls they wanted to marry there--they liked educated girls who wanted a career and who they could talk with, as opposed to their arranged marriage cousin back in the village who was always secluded and wasn't educated.

These upper class girls were suddenly left without any marriage prospects because: no education to keep their old guys, no way to meet new guys. Unmarried women were in for an unpleasant life--you were always going to be dependent on your dad (and when he died), a brother for a home and money since you couldn't make a living for yourself. Likely that brother was going to get resentful after a while that you did nothing that cost him money after a few years. The only way out for these girls was to hope for a polygamous marriage with a tribal leader, since they were the only ones who could afford to have more than one wife and meet the marry up standard.

This just seems so much like our fundie girls who have been taught to wait for Prince Charming. And it's not just the girls who have been taught to wait for Prince Charming, it's her parents too (remember some of those huge checklists of theological purity some of the dads go through before a guy can even get around to ask to court the daughter?) The expectations are so high that there is no marrying down for these girls.

On the other hand, a fundie male doesn't need to marry another super fundie female. As long as she believes in the basics (submitting), he can "marry down" and teach her all his theology and how he prefers his house to be run later. It's her job to bend to his wishes, so it's not so important that she be perfect beforehand. Thus, there are always going to be more upper-class/royal fundie females available for marriage than males.

Excellent points all. And of course, the males also have the upper hand because they're the ones doing the choosing--the women have to wait more-or-less passively to be pursued (or for a virtual stranger to approach Daddy). And even when that does happen, whether the potential suitor manages to pass muster with the parents is completely out of the woman's hands (see ylcf.org/courtship-stories/visser/ for a heartbreaking example of how the parents' doctrinal whims dictated the entire course of the courtship). A young woman in this culture is willingly handing the reins of her life over to her parents, who--let's face it--may or may not have her best interests in mind.

[Tator Tot Tubby]

Perhaps the QF world needs to start building its own infrastructure. Could one of the possibly start a matchmaking service? One of the older SAHDs who is past her prime could start a business as a marriage broker (a fundie yenta) with her father's blessing. She could keep a database of interests and photos and statements of faith. Parents could go through profiles and make suggestions and set up meetings. I guess parents would have to have profiles as well as they would be the ultimate approval.

Granted I wouldn't want to encourage more fundie marriages and fundie breeding, but if they care about keeping up their moment, a system like this wouldn't be a bad idea.

Ah, but they're supposed to leave the matchmaking up to God. If anyone suggests a match for them, I'm sure it would have to be conveyed as a message from the Lord. I don't know if fundies allow women to have God speak through them. And I'm sure they'd think anyone who saw their profile would have taken a piece of their heart :roll:

[fundiefan2012]

Apparently God DOES write each love story. after all isn't that what the index of courtship stories on ylcf is all about? if God doesn't have the pen of your life, then you must be in rebellion and your marriage won't be blessed.

And that indeed would be Bad.

Give me a marriage cursed over their idea of a marriage blessed, any day. In fact, give me a warm bed with a man to whom I owe no commitment over any marriage.

[VintageJen1984]

I think the number of (courtship practicing) fundies is probably actually a fair bit greater than the number of Amish, but they are scattered about the country. The Amish live in community, and many of their communities are very close together, and then they hold events in which adolescents are meant to get to know the opposite sex options available, so they don't have to be approached by a total stranger when the time comes.

I've noticed the courtship practicing fundies that are more successful do not impose restrictions such as "no speaking to the opposite sex". And some (on the VF side, of course) have dances which are meant for the very purpose of getting to know members of the opposite sex.

ATI-ers and those especially who don't allow girls to talk to boys who aren't their brothers, are the ones with floundering SAHD's over 25. (Duggars, Maxwells, Moody.)

The exception for AS and E, because certainly they can speak to men and go to dances, but they make all that money being single so daddy won't let them get married until it's more financially appropriate for them to get married (i.e., people start wondering how much use it is for these girls to write about being the perfect SAHD waiting to become a wife, preparing for wife and motherhood and yet they never marry, that's when we'll see them get married.)

[MamaJunebug]

These are the people who (some of them) don't permit women to approach the communion rail. Instead, the bread and beverage are handed to dad, who takes it to his wife and children. If that doesn't confuse "dad" with "God" I don't know what does ... but it does make it easier to have a young woman believer that her ongoing singleness is completely proper and supportable.

Also - if dad dies or is otherwise unavailable, mom still doesn't approach the rail. ONe of her sons does. If there are no sons, a male elder (the only kind of elder) delivers the communiion elements.

[silvia]

Lesser-known older "maidens in waiting" blog roundup:

marybeebzz2.blogspot.com - A headcovering woman in her late thirties living in Florida. She has, I believe, at least three sisters, but only one of these women has ever gotten married, and she was in her later thirties by the time she did.

daniellecarey.blogspot.com - YLCF contributor living in Australia with her family. Seems to be devoting lots of her energy to being the world's greatest aunt.

hopescribbles.wordpress.com - Elisabeth Allen, 20something YLCF contrib living in England with her parents, brothers, and sisters. Writer of the recent "biological clock" piece referenced at the beginning of this thread.

What stands out to me in general is the women's lack of awareness of _why_ they've found themselves in their current life situation. Hello! Go meet people outside your insular community! Ditch the frumpers! Join eHarmony! Do something different, for Heaven's sake!

[Edited for clarity.]

[SisiL78]

Marybeebzzz does seem to have a job. That's at least something, so she won't be destitute when there are no parents to stay at home with in the future.....

As an overweight chic myself I can say that its hard enough finding a man when you do go out and live life. I cannot imagine how hard it is to do it within the confines of one's own home... especially with all of the svelte 17 year old fundy girls out there clamoring for a husband.

I know quite a few women who refuse to go actively look for a mate and instead like to blame someone else. They won't even go online to do it and somehow its everyone else's fault, not their own. I'm sure these fundy spinsters feel pretty bitter but they channel that into trust/love for G-d. I'm not sure if that's all that awful. True, they could channel it into a lifestyle change that would put them in situations where they could meet a potential mate, but in so many ways they are no different than the women who go to work and then go home and won't put an effort into looking nice (or even decent), don't go anyplace social after work or on the weekends and devote their lives to their dogs/cats/nieces/nephews instead... And not out of religious extremism but out of an "I give up" attitude.

A good friend of mine is constantly saying "I'm too fat to meet someone". I have, on more than one occassion, got on a scale to prove to her that I am only five pounds lighter than her and I met an AMAZING man who thinks I'm gorgeous and loves me unconditionally.... the only difference is that I LEFT THE HOUSE and met someone and went online and dated and finally went to a cheesy single's event and had the balls to give a random cute guy my number... women across the spectrum of religiousity have given up. I've seen it happen so many times I've lost count.

[silvia]

Marybeebzzz does seem to have a job. That's at least something, so she won't be destitute when there are no parents to stay at home with in the future.....

Sisi, absolutely! I applaud her for that. And it gives her a way to find her place in the world sans husband.

[SoybeanQueen]

I have said this before. If a SAHD wants a big family, she needs to get married really young because a woman's fertility goes down at 27. It goes down even more at 35. Not every SAHD is going to be like Michelle or Kelly and able to pop out several kids all through their 30's and into their 40's.

Exactly. This is the biggest issue, I think. If you're going to focus your religion on having lots of babies, you'd probably also better make it easy for women to get married fairly young. Otherwise you're wasting peak fertility years, and greatly increasing the chances that you'll have no kids at all (particularly without fertility treatments).

[SoybeanQueen]

They don't do this homeschool, homechurch thing where teens only spend time with their families. They actually have community events to give young people a chance to meet each other.

We have a large Amish community here. Not only do they have their own social events, but many of the young adults participate in regular community activities, too, and get to meet people that way. We play co-ed softball in the local rec league, and it's common to play against a team with their girls in Amish-style dresses and head-coverings. Like any other team full of young adults, there's always lots of joking around and flirting.

We actually have a small public school in our district that is nearly all Amish children. I'm sure some do homeschool, but the vast majority in our community attend public school. Even those who go to the mostly-Amish school are fairly well integrated in the community at large by graduation time, because the smaller schools have so many combined events. It's hard to be insular around here.

[silvia]

Not sure if this article has been posted before, but here's a guy's take on the whole inscrutable courtship culture and how it actually lessens young people's prospects of marriage: nolongerquivering.com/2012/03/13/why-courtship-fails-a-males-perspective/

It's insightful and spot-on. I especially like this section:

Most of my family’s friends subscribed to these philosophies. But as their daughters approached their late teens, these families began to realize, either consciously or subconsciously, that many of the required attributes of a “godly young man†are mutually exclusive. An ambitious, hard-working young man is going to want to go to college, or at least live at a level of independence from his parents unacceptable to Gothard and Phillips’ teachings. And any truly intelligent and critical-thinking suitor is not going to agree with his parents on everything – especially if his parents are die-hard ATI-followers.

For many girls I know, the perfect suitor never materialized. Instead, they became forced to wait for the elusive young man who could gain the approval of their father. Many of my more ambitious male friends left the homeschool community entirely out of disgust, tired of facing impossible obstacles set up by fathers just to get to know their daughters. The boys who remained were often never given enough freedom to choose anything for themselves, and were under-employed, unable to communicate with women, and altogether as uninteresting as they were ineligible.

[moreorlessnu]

I can say that its hard enough finding a man when you do go out and live life. I cannot imagine how hard it is to do it within the confines of one's own home...

They wouldn't even know the first place to begin. The challenge is so daunting to them that it's an easier path to just "trust in the Lord".

We have a large Amish community here. Not only do they have their own social events, but many of the young adults participate in regular community activities, too, and get to meet people that way.

I live near a farm stand run by Mennonites. From chatting with them, it appears they send young people (both men and women) from or to a few states away to help out for a period of time. I'm assuming this would increase their chances of mingling together, and getting to know each other.