SAHDs' biological clocks are ticking. Here's why.

[silvia]

Aging SAHDs are an increasingly common phenomenon in the ultra-conservative Christian community and a frequent topic of discussion on this board—from Elizabeth and Anna Sofia Botkin to Jana Duggar to the two Sarahs (Mally and Maxwell). A story went up on YLCF recently that's geared toward would-be young mothers who are rapidly aging out of that classification and are frustrated that their dreams of having a large brood by 30 aren't going to come to pass (ylcf.org/2012/05/the-truth-about-your-biological-clock/). The gist, according to writer Elisabeth Allen: God is in control of our biological clocks, and “no matter what happens and when, He will make my dreams, your dreams, of motherhood come true if that is His sovereign plan for our lives.†There's a similar article on Leslie Ludy's site (setapartgirl.com/article-FEB-myperfectvalentine.html) written by a 32-year-old woman, “Melodious Echo.†The article floridly reassures readers that Jesus can be their “perfect Valentine.â€

If these women looked closely at their circumstances, though, they would realize that their lack of romantic prospects isn't a calamity God orchestrated to teach them patience and forbearance. It's simply the predictable outcome of a confluence of cultural norms regarding social interaction, romantic relationships, male dominance, and female appearance.

Factors that thwart women in this culture who want to find their Prince Charming include, but are not limited to, the following:

1) The requirement that they find a suitor who shares their non-mainstream and highly specific religious beliefs severely winnows the pool of available prospects to choose from.

2) SOTDRT homeschooling/ staying home much of the day also tends, in many cases, to narrow the list of romantic possibilities. To a certain extent, this is a numbers game: the more people of the opposite sex you meet, the more likely you are to meet someone suitable to marry. These women aren't setting up the odds in their favor.

3) The overwhelming emphasis on “keeping your heart pure†can make for some pretty stilted guy-girl interactions. Who wants to flirt and joke around with a guy when your parents have drilled you not to defraud some other woman's future husband?

4) Giving parents the power to make or break a romance dooms many courtships before they really have a chance to get off the ground. Many patriarchal family heads put up an intimidating front and have such high standards for potential husbands for their daughters that very few suitors, if any, make it past the fortifications—if they're even motivated enough to try. This is especially evident in families with ultra-controlling headships such as Steve Maxwell, Geoff Botkin, and possibly Jim-Bob Duggar.

5) Not a universal maxim (A-S & E Botkin are apt counter-examples), but some women in this culture go around looking less attractive than they really are due to the dress styles they choose and a lack of attention to flattering hairstyles and grooming. I'm not condemning them for it, since I'm against lookism in general, but if their goal is to attract potential suitors, this approach isn't going to help.

Ironic, isn't it, that a subculture that puts such weight on women marrying early and having lots of children also has deeply-ingrained mores that tend to prevent that desired outcome from taking place? I'm sure there are other cultural and religious factors at work here, and I'd love to hear you all chime in.

[kpmom]

Ironic, isn't it, that a subculture that puts such weight on women marrying early and having lots of children also has deeply-ingrained mores that tend to prevent that desired outcome from taking place? I'm sure there are other cultural and religious factors at work here, and I'd love to hear you all chime in.

I think your list is spot on, and this final paragraph is so true. Do you think keeping women from fulfilling this destiny is intentional, even if subconsciously, perhaps? And why?

[tabitha2]

Also a mention should be made of the fact a young suitor with his often limited education and job skills must be well able to provide for a wife and and kids coming soon in quick succession.With out these things they can't expect to win the girls fathers approval.

[geniebelle6901]

This is also why I think the fundamentalist/quiverfull movement isn't sustainable. If you can only marry like-minded people, that narrows your choices drastically. Also if many of these families are large, there's a possibility of some in-breeding at some point (whether intentional or not). Outside of the FLDS what other Fundamentalist groups condone cousin marriages? I know in many U.S. states it's legal (including my own state of AL)

[silvia]

I think your list is spot on, and this final paragraph is so true. Do you think keeping women from fulfilling this destiny is intentional, even if subconsciously, perhaps? And why?

Good question! Yes, I think some of the men may subconsciously want to keep their daughters around to help with running the home, or may not want to relinquish control of them to another man--even though the headships may have prayed over those same daughters' ovaries at birth. :)

[emmiedahl]

It seems like, if you look globally, there are two types of marriage: arranged marriages, and love marriages. Those who go the love marriage route do what some might call dating, looking for the guy who makes their toes tingle. Cultures with arranged marriages tend to have massive infrastructure supporting this. I have an acquaintance from India whose parents have her listed on several sites dedicated to arranging marriages and are always emailing her pictures of friends' friends' sons. What the fundies call courtship is very similar to most arranged marriages. Most arranged marriages involve a parental introduction, approval from the future bride and groom, and varying amounts of contact moving up toward the wedding. This is identical to courtship. But they lack the infrastructure. When I google "find a nice Brahmin boy" I get millions of hits, the ones I scanned look highly relevant. When I google "find a nice Christian boy" I get an ad for Christian mingle, which has too many denominations and too much worldliness for the fundies, and then page after page of fundies discussing whether and how they can get a husband. Obviously no one is serving the matchmaking needs of this community, and that is a big problem for these girls.

[gustava]

I wonder, also, if the pool isn't smaller than we realize, because each group tends to marry within itself. For example, we joke about matching up the Arndt boys (even though they're adults) with a Duggar or a Sarah. Yet, each group is so hidebound that they will never cross marry. And how many ATI males are available through Gothard HQ or Big Sandy? What pool would AS & E draw from? And we know that the Sarahs' pools are the size of a teaspoon.

ETA: I read Emmie's post after I drafted mine. I think we're saying the same thing, although she is more eloquent.

[tabitha2]

Not to mention the Fundies that are not affiliated with the VF OR ATI.

[Talitha Cumi]

I wonder how the QF/fundie families expect to outbreed the heathens when they're locking up half their breeding population and not letting them fulfill their "biological destiny." What becomes of Geoff Botkin's 100-year plan when he takes two of his children out of the game? They're not just destroying their daughters' futures, they're destroying the future of their movement.

[silvia]

It seems like, if you look globally, there are two types of marriage: arranged marriages, and love marriages. Those who go the love marriage route do what some might call dating, looking for the guy who makes their toes tingle. Cultures with arranged marriages tend to have massive infrastructure supporting this. I have an acquaintance from India whose parents have her listed on several sites dedicated to arranging marriages and are always emailing her pictures of friends' friends' sons. What the fundies call courtship is very similar to most arranged marriages. Most arranged marriages involve a parental introduction, approval from the future bride and groom, and varying amounts of contact moving up toward the wedding. This is identical to courtship. But they lack the infrastructure. When I google "find a nice Brahmin boy" I get millions of hits, the ones I scanned look highly relevant. When I google "find a nice Christian boy" I get an ad for Christian mingle, which has too many denominations and too much worldliness for the fundies, and then page after page of fundies discussing whether and how they can get a husband. Obviously no one is serving the matchmaking needs of this community, and that is a big problem for these girls.

True. This community's approach to romance is also a strange cross-breed between the Disneyfied "get a Prince Charming to sweep you off your feet" view and parent-orchestrated arranged marriage. The two aren't all that compatible, and when you add the fact that there's no matchmaking infrastructure in place, you get a whole lot of SAHDs hitting age 30 and up while still living in their childhood bedrooms.

[emmiedahl]

Indian arranged marriages seem to come with the same expectation of love and romance and prince charmingness. Maybe I just watch too many Bollywood movies though.

[ianthe]

It seems like, if you look globally, there are two types of marriage: arranged marriages, and love marriages. Those who go the love marriage route do what some might call dating, looking for the guy who makes their toes tingle. Cultures with arranged marriages tend to have massive infrastructure supporting this. I have an acquaintance from India whose parents have her listed on several sites dedicated to arranging marriages and are always emailing her pictures of friends' friends' sons. What the fundies call courtship is very similar to most arranged marriages. Most arranged marriages involve a parental introduction, approval from the future bride and groom, and varying amounts of contact moving up toward the wedding. This is identical to courtship. But they lack the infrastructure.

What emmiedahl said.

The quiverfuls keep looking back at the nineteenth-century as a source for their assumptions, but they seem not to see what actually went on. For one thing, parentally mediated courtship was not common among working people: the parents could spare neither the time (for chaperonage) or the money for courtships. Working people met other young people through friends of friends and siblings, at social events, church groups, or work. That's not going to work for the home-churching, non-working, no-friends-ourside-the-family SAHD.

In the moneyed classes, well-off young people met at the many entertainments, dances, and parties given, overseen, and financed by the parents of eligible young women. The entire procedure was well known to by a great charge on the time and purses of the parents. But it was a structure, and it was reasonably successful. It won't work, of course, for the SAHD whose parents are financially strapped and overwhelmed with the work of multiple children. They have no time and money to sponsor an extensive social life for their daughters.

Quiverful courtship is not a system. It's a lot of wishful thinking on the part of SAHDs, encouraged by the utter selfishness of the parents, who need the labor of their adult daughters.

Does anyone remember Bethany Lindvall? She was perhaps the first SAHD. AFAIK, she is still single, and must be between 35 and 40.

[Justme]

This is the 1st generation. It will be interesting to see the 2nd generation (a/k/a Abby & Bethy Maxwell, Smuggers spawn, etc.) In 20-25 years, will there be a smaller "pool". Will the 1st generation "men" be allowed to marry a woman who is willing to "convert"? Will the 2nd generation woman see all the unmarried 1st generation women and become disenfranchised? How many photographers, tree monkeys, IT "professionals" and used car salesmen can this "cult" support?

[silvia]

What emmiedahl said.

The quiverfuls keep looking back at the nineteenth-century as a source for their assumptions, but they seem not to see what actually went on. For one thing, parentally mediated courtship was not common among working people: the parents could spare neither the time (for chaperonage) or the money for courtships. Working people met other young people through friends of friends and siblings, at social events, church groups, or work. That's not going to work for the home-churching, non-working, no-friends-ourside-the-family SAHD.

In the moneyed classes, well-off young people met at the many entertainments, dances, and parties given, overseen, and financed by the parents of eligible young women. The entire procedure was well known to by a great charge on the time and purses of the parents. But it was a structure, and it was reasonably successful. It won't work, of course, for the SAHD whose parents are financially strapped and overwhelmed with the work of multiple children. They have no time and money to sponsor an extensive social life for their daughters.

Quiverful courtship is not a system. It's a lot of wishful thinking on the part of SAHDs, encouraged by the utter selfishness of the parents, who need the labor of their adult daughters.

Does anyone remember Bethany Lindvall? She was perhaps the first SAHD. AFAIK, she is still single, and must be between 35 and 40.

Thanks for the historical perspective. Re. your first point--that the home-churching, non-working, no-friends-outside-the-family SAHD has few outlets to meet people these days--some SAHDs have tried to circumvent this problem by finding potential spouses through the Internet. I know of quite a few who have found spouses on communities like LiveJournal, for instance. But that requires both that the children have a certain degree of freedom to interact online (not the case in many of these families) and that the parents support the relationship and are willing to oversee what often turns out to be a very long-distance courtship. (Not to mention that some of these couples get engaged within the first couple of real-life meetings, which may not bode well for the relationship's longevity!)

[2xx1xy1JD]

My first thought too was "why don't they put effort into arranged marriages?". I can't quite figure out how Christian fundies meet and figure out that they are meant for each other. It seems to be some sort of instant attraction which gets interpreted as "I prayed about it and realized that this was G-d's choice for me".

I know that practices vary in the ultra-Orthodox Jewish world, but they tend to be pretty practical. Introductions need to be made, you need to screen potential suitors for issues that you consider important, there are references, and parents/mentors get involved.

[emmiedahl]

My first thought too was "why don't they put effort into arranged marriages?". I can't quite figure out how Christian fundies meet and figure out that they are meant for each other. It seems to be some sort of instant attraction which gets interpreted as "I prayed about it and realized that this was G-d's choice for me".

I know that practices vary in the ultra-Orthodox Jewish world, but they tend to be pretty practical. Introductions need to be made, you need to screen potential suitors for issues that you consider important, there are references, and parents/mentors get involved.

Not to mention the background checking that is totes normal in a Jewish arranged marriage.

Orthodox Jews have matchmakers, also. And they go to shul and school and places where you might meet a boy--even if you go to a single gender school, the girls have brothers very close to their ages that you will meet. Jews are social in a way that the fundies are not.

[CynicMom]

Do you think keeping women from fulfilling this destiny is intentional, even if subconsciously, perhaps? And why?

It wouldn't surprise me if this was due to a subconscious realization that extreme patriarchy is a bad deal for girls. If they marry a daughter into what turns out to be a bad scenario what options does she have? Keeping daughters at home is the only way to ensure their safety.

[Justme]

It wouldn't surprise me if this was due to a subconscious realization that extreme patriarchy is a bad deal for girls. If they marry a daughter into what turns out to be a bad scenario what options does she have? Keeping daughters at home is the only way to ensure their safety.

It also means they do not trust God to provide the right husband to care for their daughter. All the more reason why this "system" doesn't work.

[silvia]

This is also why I think the fundamentalist/quiverfull movement isn't sustainable. If you can only marry like-minded people, that narrows your choices drastically. Also if many of these families are large, there's a possibility of some in-breeding at some point (whether intentional or not). Outside of the FLDS what other Fundamentalist groups condone cousin marriages? I know in many U.S. states it's legal (including my own state of AL)

Interesting point. If I were more mathematically-minded, I'd put together a scenario calculating how many generations will pass before relatives in a super-cloistered religious group are forced to start marrying each other, given a fixed group size at the start and average number of kids per couple. :)

[dawn9476]

I have said this before. If a SAHD wants a big family, she needs to get married really young because a woman's fertility goes down at 27. It goes down even more at 35. Not every SAHD is going to be like Michelle or Kelly and able to pop out several kids all through their 30's and into their 40's.

[debrand]

Fundamentalist girls are taught to closely guard their emotions and to let the male do all the seeking in a relationship. Most women, even those who are very religious, give cues to let guys know that they're attracted. They might only laugh at his jokes or smile a lot but they aren't completely passive in letting the guy know that they are interested.

Because fundie boys, for the most part, have more freedom, they get to meet the occasional conservative Christian girl.

Imagine that a fundie man knows two,eligible women. One believes exactly as he does, however, she doesn't show any sign that she is interested. In order to get to know her well, he has to jump through a series of hoops that her father has created to safeguard his princess. And to top it all off, he has no idea if he actually like the girl's personality or not. The second girl doesn't share all his convictions-maybe she went to public school- but she is a Christian and she smiles at him. She isn't afraid to have a conversation with guys and he's pretty certain that she is interested in him. They both have similar interests. It would only be a surprise to fundamentalists that the young man would end up married to the second girl.

Sarah Mally is interesting because she wrote a book about waiting for Prince Charming. She is 32. While there is nothing wrong with being unmarried, , her book gives young women the impression that a prince will just fall in their laps.

[Jezebel]

I've noticed that QF sons have a slightly easier time marrying than QF daughters do (the Botkins and Maxwells, plus Smuggar, come to mind).

I suspect the patriarchs aren't quite so demanding of a potential daughter-in-law as they are a potential son-in-law. After all, a prospective bride is agreeing to submit to their son. So if her family isn't so rigorous when it comes to certain doctrines, that's okay--as long as she practices wifely submission and adapts herself to her husband and his family, there is more "wiggle room" for bringing a new daughter-in-law into the family.

A daughter, however, will have to submit to her new husband--and her father loses control over her--so complete agreement between her father and husband is essential. The husband has to be Daddy 2.0. And, given a family-cult home church such as the Maxwells or Duggars, the father is the supreme spiritual authority in the family, allowing his daughters to marry any man whose doctrinal views do not line up 100% with the Church of Daddy? Forget it. And given how narrow and idiosyncratic some family doctrines are, finding others who are a complete, perfect match in every way weeds out countless young men who, in a regular church community, would pass muster. I mean really--no suitor could be dour and death-obsessed enough to satisfy Steve Maxwell, even if he did agree on all the right doctrinal points.

Also, sons who marry will have children that carry on the patriarch's family name, while daughters who marry will have children that carry on another man's name. Given the way these fathers see their daughters as property and as extensions of themselves, I can see how reluctant they would be to relinquish control and send them off to become part of another family. It may not be conscious, but you can't tell me that's not part of it.

Also, I notice that many of the SAHDs who have remained unmarried make significant economic contributions to their families (even if they don't earn money themselves or draw a salary). If Sarah Maxwell married, Steve and Terri would lose her unpaid labor and her share of the work would then have to be divided among her mother and sisters. If the older daughters in the Duggar household married, Michelle might actually have to raise the young ones and do some housework. Especially for families that make a living selling their way of life through seminars, books, etc., the SAHDs are crucial to running the family business as unpaid employees, and the SAHD bloggers also help build a following among younger people who then in turn but the parents' materials and pay to see them.

Even for families who don't blog, the daughters' unpaid work may very well be an incentive to keep them at home. If Dad's a small contractor or other tradesman, and his daughter's been answering the phone and keeping the books without drawing a salary? It would be expensive to replace her if she married; hiring someone and having to pay a wage and benefits could be a huge blow to the family's finances. Remember the Maxwell fangirl in the horrible bridesmaid's dress (is it Rebecca!!!!1!? Memory fails me)? She's her parents' most valuable employee in their janitorial business--she's young, stronger and healthier than either parent, they literally can't afford to let her go. Or if the family has a large, attractive home, or small farm, or the parents use hospitality as part of an informal ministry? You bet they need their girls and their domestic labor to keep all that going. And downsizing as the kids move out doesn't strike me as something QFers would do, whereas keeping the big family home or farm as the symbolic center of the family's life definitely would.

And one last note on the economic front--being a SAHD in a shitty economy, where your husband-to-be must provide a paid-for home for you, and the means to support countless "arrows" before even approaching your father? If you're among an extremely small elite that is doing well, or at least pretty/skilled/socially adept enough to catch a fellow from that elite, your chances of marrying improve a lot. They still aren't good, but they're at least better. But for everyone else? Especially (hate to say it, but it's true) if you're physically unattractive? Forget it. Boys from QF households have more chances to break free and marry a pretty fundie- or fundie-lite girl without jumping through a lot of hoops and doing back bends to impress her Daddy. But the girls? No dice. They'd have to pull off a Razing Ruth-style escape.

[desertvixen]

Cultures with arranged marriages tend to have massive infrastructure supporting this.

This. The infrastructure makes it work.

[NJMom]

Is there any way to venture a guess as to how many people are in the VF/Gothard movement? It seems that these 2 groups are among the largest who hold these exteme views on courtship and marriage, SAHD, etc. I read that there are approximately 225,000 Old Order Amish in the United States....could the numbers for VT/Gothard be anywhere close to this? I do agree with the poster who said that this lifestyle is ultimately not sustainable.

[lilah]

I think we've discussed this before to some degree that a lot of fundies kind of are shooting themselves in the foot in terms of having some many counterproductive measures that prevent SAHDs from getting married. To add your list is the fact that in megafamilies the oldest kids are the designated indentured servants and parents don't always want to lose the free labor. The other issue that they are so focused on home/family (homeschool/homechurching) and are spread all over the country they don't always have a lot of contacts in their community outside conventions/internet and we all know you can't email men unless daddy says it's okay.