missionaries

[Elle]

Elle, I don't mind standing corrected. I am curious now -- I'd like to see those pictures of the Nairobi (Kibera) women in kangas. I've tried searching her pattern Facebook page, her personal page, and her blog, and don't seem to be looking in the right places. All I came up with was a picture most definitely not in Nairobi of women dressed in kangas and walking along a country road that was part of all advertising of the kangas (looked like a stock picture) and a picture of a woman with Jennie wearing the kanga skirt she was teaching them to make. All the pictures I from Kibera saw showed women dressed in the way I normally see them (except for one women in a traditional outfit but it wasn't a kanga). I'd appreciate directions to find them.

Related to that, I've wanted to do try and find out more about Jennie. In particular, I'd love to see where she talks about women not working or going to college. I thought FJ would have some good threads on it, but I am having a terrible time with the Search function. Most of the time it tells me it can't be used at the moment and to try back later. When I finally get it to work, it takes me to the first page of results for Jennie, which are all from the last thread about her so I've seen them already. When I try to go to page two, I get the message that search isn't working again. When it finally does work, it starts me all over again -- so I can't get past page one. Is anyone else having trouble with the search, or is this just a problem on my end?

Also, does the search feature no longer work on the old board? It keeps telling me there are no results for Chancey which I wouldn't have thought would be the case.

I'll be going past Kibera today on my way into town so I'll be looking to see what people wear.

One of her first e-mail newsletters about Kenya had a couple photos. One sticks out so vividly in my head, of a few women walking away from the camera on a path, colorful kangas wrapped around them, very bright and beautiful colors, with baskets held on their heads, only it didn't look like a stock photo. The photo itself looked amateurish. That was right before I switched from a comcast.com e-mail to yahoo.com, so I don't have e-mails further back than last March of last year.

Go to ladiesagainstfeminism.com and read her posts there. She owns that site. One of her more recent ones includes the claim that contraceptives lead to more abortions. Just crazy.

Here's a bit of hypocrisy: http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/education/the-college-rip-off/

We just urge young women to pursue avenues of education that do not involve debt, living in a fake peer-restricted culture, binge drinking, and the casual “hook-up†mindset when it comes to relations with the opposite sex.

Her own parents sent her to college where she lived away from them, in a "peer-restricted culture," and her friends were the sort who dated and hooked up, and she met Matt while working. But for another girl to go away to college...nope, bad, you need to "pursue avenues of education" that aren't that.

[ottergirl]

Thanks, Elle. I will definitely check out that site.

The picture you describe sounds like the one on the Facebook in her Kangas album. That is a typical sight on the coast, but not what is seen here. I wish it were. However, Nairobi women don't dress like that. I saw one women in a kanga, worn as a skirt, and another with it around her shoulders as a shawl, and that's all I've seen today.

[holierthanyou]

Seasaltcaramel... I think you might have an emerging kook-aid addiction. At the least, I find your all encompassing and ethnocentric "interpretations" of Kenyans to be cringe worthy at best.

[fundifugee]

The westernization of their clothing would have happened whether missionaries had ever set foot in Africa (and other countries). The majority of western clothing makes its way to Africa and other third world countries because of the enormous amounts of aid that organizations send to those countries. Much of that foreign aid is sent by organizations that are humanitarian in nature and may not have any religious background at all.

Not so. (Well, probably it would have happened anyway, but the second hand clothing is not there because of charities). Most Western clothing in sub-Saharan Africa is brought there by traders. Most of it is second-hand stuff that they get for free from those bins they put out in parking lots, where people think they are donating their old clothes to charity. (At times they make deals however with Goodwill and the like to buy bales of clothes). The clothes are shipped to Africa and SOLD at market for a tidy profit for the traders, who are usually South Asian or Arab, but some US or European white folks too. There have been a couple exposees about this and people who are giving their second-hand clothes to those 'charity' bins were quite shocked that it was not a charity, it was a for-profit business and the folks who were running it were making a lot of money.

I did a bit of clothes shopping when I was in Uganda, knowing that everything at the open-air market was second-hand, and expecting Goodwill prices. Not at all! A pair of used jeans cost the equivalent of $20-30; similar for everything from dresses to shoes. Yes, it was usually cheaper than the new stuff but was not cheap at all, and the prices were equivalent to buying new at a place like Target in Georgia at the time.

And yes, I am not surprised that in Nairobi most of what one sees are western clothes. I have only spent a few weeks in Nairobi, so I can't speak for that city, but I know that the families with whom I lived in Kampala and Kigali all had their western "going out" clothes as well as their every day clothes for staying at home. Kangas (or Kitengis as they are called in Rwanda/Congo/parts of Uganda) were worn at home, or in the neighborhood. Most folks had one or two western outfits that they kept impeccably cleaned and ironed, the shoes shined, but only wore them for 'going into town', job-hunting, visiting, etc. If you actually walk into Kibera or other shanty towns or slums and look at what women are wearing when sweeping their yards or cooking lunch, etc, I suspect it might be less western.

(PS - I brought back 5 or 6, I wore them when I was pregnant. Got lots of stares, but never had to buy maternity clothes. One set I turned into curtains for my daughter's room.)

edited - riffles galore.

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't think that we should over emphasise the work of modern-day missionaries and charities for the Westernization of certain aspects of African life (such as clothes and religion). Thanks to decades of European imperialism in Africa, that ship has already sailed. My father wore entirely European clothing, spoke English and French, and got a full-on fundy religious education in rural (read: middle of nowhere) Nigeria in the 1940s and '50s.

Also, I love how Janel seems to be scamming free language lessons for her kids from the housekeeper and then wrapping it up to sound as if its something deeply respectful on their part! If it's all about creating jobs (having a housekeeper and a guard, etc.), why not pay for a tutor?

[ottergirl]

I like thinking that people do wear more traditional clothes at home. Yes, I haven't been in homes in Kibera. Thanks for sharing that, Fundifugee (hope I've got your name right since I can't see it as I type). The compound I live on is perhaps eighty percent African (a variety of countries) and they all wear Western dress except for special occasion outfits, but they are hardly the same economic status as those in Kibera.

I've been privileged to visit Uganda briefly and my husband has been to Tanzania and we have the impression that Kenya is much more westernized that some of the other countries due to the fact that it seems to be the hub for the region. So many aid agencies located here. We saw more traditional dress in these countries.

[Guest Anonymous]

I just wanted to put in my two cents about how mission work can be done in a helpful, respectful way.

First of all, I have a huge heart for missions (what does this even mean?), particularly Kenya, as well as helping at-risk (of what?)women and children world-wide. I went to Kenya last summer and absolutely fell in love with the people there (you met ALL of them?). Their hearts and attitudes showed nothing but kindness and generosity despite the lack of modern conveniences. (What did you expect to find outside the US? Savages?) I had the honor of teaching a fourth-grade class their math and English/grammar classes for the day. (A whole day? Is their education often disrupted by 1-day visitors?) They were so smart and ready to learn. Most impressive was their respect for their teachers/elders and the fact that they are tri-lingual. (Again, what did you expect to find? Savages?) Some others from our group helped build floors for two of the large school rooms. We were there to help them with whatever they needed. I felt like I came home with much, much more than I "gave" them. (I don't doubt it for a minute...) I made a few friends with the children there. One boy stayed by my side the whole time. He told me I reminded him of his mother. The genuine love he showed me made my heart stretch farther than I thought possible. (So, are you still in touch with your new friend, or did your heart get over-stretched?) That is just one of many stories I have.

The organization we take our trips through is called the 410 Bridge. It's from the verse in 1 Peter 4:10 that says that everyone should use the gifts God gave them to serve those in need. The bridge model pictures that it's not just a one-way street (us showing up and acting like their saviors). It pictures that while we help them with resources and equipment they may not have or are able to obtain (i.e. building a well) they, in return show us what it truly means to love and serve without a hidden agenda; to be grateful and hopeful when they survive on very little. What 410Bridge does is go into a community, set up a leadership counsel of people from that community, and then ask them what the community's most important needs are. We are very respectful and honoring of their culture and practices. We make every attempts not to be "ugly Americans." One of the most important things that 410 emphasizes is "no unhealthy giving." (Hmm... the bible verse it is based on has no such limitation clause....) This means that we don't give anything (not even a stick of gum) to anyone in the community that hasn't been okayed by the leadership counsel. The idea is that we are not creating a sense of entitlement in them or a group of people just looking for handouts. For example, if someone asks for money for college, I would say, "I can't give that to you now, but if you ask the leadership counsel and they say yes, I'd love to help you. That way, the leadership counsel can say, "that's a great idea," or "no, that person is just looking for a handout," because they know the people and needs of their community. (Nice way to manage difficult personal feelings if you're asked for things that would be harder to give than a day's teaching....)

*snip because it hurts to go on...

Sorry this is so long. I just wanted to let you all know of the efforts that are helping rather than hurting ;)

Seasaltcaramel... I think you might have an emerging kook-aid addiction. At the least, I find your all encompassing and ethnocentric "interpretations" of Kenyans to be cringe worthy at best.

This.

[Elle]

I just wanted to put in my two cents about how mission work can be done in a helpful, respectful way.

First of all, I have a huge heart for missions, particularly Kenya, as well as helping at-risk women and children world-wide. I went to Kenya last summer and absolutely fell in love with the people there. Their hearts and attitudes showed nothing but kindness and generosity despite the lack of modern conveniences. I had the honor of teaching a fourth-grade class their math and English/grammar classes for the day. They were so smart and ready to learn. Most impressive was their respect for their teachers/elders and the fact that they are tri-lingual. Some others from our group helped build floors for two of the large school rooms. We were there to help them with whatever they needed. I felt like I came home with much, much more than I "gave" them. I made a few friends with the children there. One boy stayed by my side the whole time. He told me I reminded him of his mother. The genuine love he showed me made my heart stretch farther than I thought possible. That is just one of many stories I have.

The organization we take our trips through is called the 410 Bridge. It's from the verse in 1 Peter 4:10 that says that everyone should use the gifts God gave them to serve those in need. The bridge model pictures that it's not just a one-way street (us showing up and acting like their saviors). It pictures that while we help them with resources and equipment they may not have or are able to obtain (i.e. building a well) they, in return show us what it truly means to love and serve without a hidden agenda; to be grateful and hopeful when they survive on very little. What 410Bridge does is go into a community, set up a leadership counsel of people from that community, and then ask them what the community's most important needs are. We are very respectful and honoring of their culture and practices. We make every attempts not to be "ugly Americans." One of the most important things that 410 emphasizes is "no unhealthy giving." This means that we don't give anything (not even a stick of gum) to anyone in the community that hasn't been okayed by the leadership counsel. The idea is that we are not creating a sense of entitlement in them or a group of people just looking for handouts. For example, if someone asks for money for college, I would say, "I can't give that to you now, but if you ask the leadership counsel and they say yes, I'd love to help you. That way, the leadership counsel can say, "that's a great idea," or "no, that person is just looking for a handout," because they know the people and needs of their community.

One specific need that our church was able to help with was to purchase a stove for our community's school to make lunch. These children may or may not get a meal at home. For many children, this is where they get their one meal for the day. Again, I feel honored that my church was able to donate money that bought a stove this community needed and wanted.

In 3 weeks I'm going back to this community with fellow medical professionals. We are the first medical team to come to this specific community, and our purpose for this trip is to find out what the top 10 medical needs are. That way, when future medical teams come, they can bring the specific meds and supplies that are most in need.

Sorry this is so long. I just wanted to let you all know of the efforts that are helping rather than hurting ;)

I've read through this a couple times, and what I'm getting out of it if you went on a mission and have overinflated the value of your work. If you weren't even allowed to share a stick of gun with someone you met there, the way a friend might share with another friend, then it sounds like your leadership counsel if maintaing control of ALL of you. You missionaries are limited in what you can do, and what those villagers can have is limited by some counsel that took over.

Like Annie C, upon first racing this, I wondered what you expected to fine, since you expressed such surprise that the kids weren't stupid, disrespectful little brats but were instead respectful, bright, and eager to learn.

[Witsec1]

Not so. (Well, probably it would have happened anyway, but the second hand clothing is not there because of charities). Most Western clothing in sub-Saharan Africa is brought there by traders. Most of it is second-hand stuff that they get for free from those bins they put out in parking lots, where people think they are donating their old clothes to charity. (At times they make deals however with Goodwill and the like to buy bales of clothes). The clothes are shipped to Africa and SOLD at market for a tidy profit for the traders, who are usually South Asian or Arab, but some US or European white folks too. There have been a couple exposees about this and people who are giving their second-hand clothes to those 'charity' bins were quite shocked that it was not a charity, it was a for-profit business and the folks who were running it were making a lot of money.

I did a bit of clothes shopping when I was in Uganda, knowing that everything at the open-air market was second-hand, and expecting Goodwill prices. Not at all! A pair of used jeans cost the equivalent of $20-30; similar for everything from dresses to shoes. Yes, it was usually cheaper than the new stuff but was not cheap at all, and the prices were equivalent to buying new at a place like Target in Georgia at the time.

And yes, I am not surprised that in Nairobi most of what one sees are western clothes. I have only spent a few weeks in Nairobi, so I can't speak for that city, but I know that the families with whom I lived in Kampala and Kigali all had their western "going out" clothes as well as their every day clothes for staying at home. Kangas (or Kitengis as they are called in Rwanda/Congo/parts of Uganda) were worn at home, or in the neighborhood. Most folks had one or two western outfits that they kept impeccably cleaned and ironed, the shoes shined, but only wore them for 'going into town', job-hunting, visiting, etc. If you actually walk into Kibera or other shanty towns or slums and look at what women are wearing when sweeping their yards or cooking lunch, etc, I suspect it might be less western.

(PS - I brought back 5 or 6, I wore them when I was pregnant. Got lots of stares, but never had to buy maternity clothes. One set I turned into curtains for my daughter's room.)

edited - riffles galore.

I'm trying to remember the name of the documentary I saw about the used clothing trade - something like the "Life of a T-Shirt" or something like that. It outlined all the subsidies and favorable trade arrangements that made the T-shirt so cheap for the first world market, and then how various "free trade" agreements gutted the kind of subsidies and price supports some African countries were using to get their textile and clothing manufacturing industries started. These were the same kinds of tariffs and so on that the first world countries used to establish their industries - but "free trade" means that those kinds of structures aren't available to the developing world. So the indigenuous textile industries were aborted and replaced with the second-hand clothing trade. It profiled one young man who was trying to support his family by selling imported second-hand clothes in the market. A bright hard-working guy, but the deck was stacked against him.

The problem with "having a heart" for people like the guy in the movie I'm remembering, is that if you don't also use your mind to examine and question the legal and economic structures that are oppressing him, your actions can wind up doing more harm than good. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on that kind of superficial sentimental charity, but evangelicals' infatuation with laissez-faire capitalism means that the leader will actively suppress or deflect any of that type of thinking in their sheeple.

[Elle]

I want a kanga now. Actually I want like 10 kangas.

Sarees, too, but I've always wanted those. I haven't gotten any because I don't want to be culturally insensitive (we live in an area with a large Indian population). But now that I think about it, if I moved into a foriegn culture and a couple people started dressing like I did I wouldn't be offended, I'd be like "Hey, they like my clothes! Cool!"

Their dress technology is way superior to ours, anyway. If we're so "advanced" why didn't we come up with this stuff? It's brilliant.

ETA: I'd probably offend tons of white people if I started wearing Sarees and Kangas. Are race relations only this messed up in the U.S.?

I think so. If someone from another country wears western clothes here, they're assimilating, and if they wear western stuff over there, they's just changing with the times or something. We we wear their clothes over there, we're assimilating, but if we wear is here, we're misappropriating culture and how dare we we so insensitive, even though it seems like most people from other countries are fine seeing us wear clothing from their countries. Sometimes clothing is just clothing. Not everything has a deep cultural or religion significance. Like jeans or something, but even if we say someone in India or Kenya wearing an American wedding gown, is anyone going to be deeply offended?

[SeaSaltCaramel]

I see that my post needs further clarification. Hopefully, I can answer the questions asked and maybe clear up some misconceptions.

First of all, I want to say that I really enjoy the FJ forum. I think the people who post here are intelligent and witty. I love snarking on the Duggars and other fundies. I can't stand it when fundies and stuck-up Christians go off on gay marriage; and I firmly believe in women's rights. I'm a #1 proponent for alternative fuel and a bit of a tree hugger.

My heart for missions means, I have a heart to help in foreign countries where there are no social government programs providing for the basic needs of their people. The at-risk women and children refers to human trafficking (some of the highest areas are eastern Europe, several African countries, and China) and other atrocities such as bride burning in India. I smiled at the question of falling in love with all of people of Kenya. I guess I should limit that statement to the people in our community, named Kiu. I met a lot of people during my time there, and I felt like I bonded rather quickly to many of the children and teens there. I got to know several of the teachers and the school cook. It honestly was like I had known these people for years rather than days. I've never had this happen before. The point about their gracious and generous attitudes despite the lack of modern conveniences is in comparison to westernized countries. There doesn't seem to be any "keeping up with the Joneses" attitude in Kiu. They are more resourceful and more generous than many people in the western world.

About the school question...

We were in Kiu for 5 days. They only have one group a year coming at this time through the 410Bridge organization, but they receive funds for specific needs throughout the year. They call us "visitors" and are very glad for our visit. Again, it's not like we are ugly Americans coming in to prosthelytize and such. (I watched the Duggars' mission trip epi. and I know that passing out lollipops and tracts don't help anyone. Plus, if anyone on my team acted like Boob, I'd punch him in the face.) Since the community is aware of the timing of our visit, it becomes like a school trip, only we come to them. The English teacher told me that their lesson for that day was on adverbs. She pretty much asked me if I wanted to teach it and handed me the book. When I noticed that some of the kids were mistaking prepositions for adverbs. I asked the teacher if they had learned prepositions yet. She said, "no, but you can teach them." So that's what I did :) After the class was over, she asked me if I was a teacher. I said that no, I was a respiratory therapist. She just smiled and shook her head and said, "no, you are a teacher." Now, do I think I'm better qualified or a better teacher than the ones there? Absolutely not. I felt more honored to have the opportunity than I felt pride that I taught them something they simply hadn't learned yet.

In reference to the students' attitude and behavior, again I was meaning to compare it with that of the US. When their teachers walked into the classroom, all the students would stand up and say something to the effect of, "Welcome teachers, we are ready to learn, thank you for your hard work." There aren't as many kids who act up because it is a common thing that children respect their teachers and parents. That is something that has been on the decline in the US for some time. Also, the fact that many of the kids are tri-lingual was impressive to me because so often, students in the US get little education in a foreign language in elementary school and as little as two years of foreign language in high school. I realize that our predominate language is English, so the ability to retain a foreign language is difficult. Since the official languages of Kenya are Bantu Swahili and English, these young students are immersed with them, along with their tribal language (Maasai or Kamba).

Staying in touch with the friends I made has been a little difficult. The road to Kiu is off of the Mombasa Highway. That road and all others in Kiu are unnamed dirt roads; and families in Kiu may have 2, even 3 last names. While these do pose a challenge, the 410Bridge has recently come up with an innovative way for us to communicate. Rafikimail (rafiki means friend in Swahili) is making keeping in touch easier. What you do is take a picture of yourself holding a short written message to your friend and send it through rafikimail. The Kenyan staff at 410Bridge then goes to the school, shows it to your friend, and they are able to write a message to hold up and have a picture taken to send back to you.

The idea behind unhealthy giving is not meant to put limitations on giving, but to keep from giving something to the community that would end up hurting them more than helping them. An example would be leaving clothes behind on a trip. This is a very nice gesture. You're giving clothes to people who don't have any, right? But what ends up happening, is people end up waiting for free donated clothes rather than buying them from a local clothes maker. So the clothes makers end up losing income. With Kenya's unemployment rate at 40%, the goal is to look at the far-reaching effects our giving can have so as to not make that number increase because of unhealthy giving. The mission work done helps to teach skills for employable jobs and training for small businesses. The idea is to help with things that will improve their quality of life long-term. For example, on one trip, the team gave their bus driver a very large tip. Enough that he quit his job and retired. Again, nothing sounds wrong with that. What ended up happening was it left a need in the community of a reliable, trustworthy bus driver.

This is what the leadership counsel helps with. They see from experience what helps and hurts their community from previous missionary "help." They know if a student is working hard to do well in school but comes from a family that has no resources to send him or her to college. They also know if a person in the community is just looking to "make a profit" off of missionaries with fat wallets.

Again, sorry for such a long post. I hope this helps. :)

[Guest Anonymous]

The problem with "having a heart" for people like the guy in the movie I'm remembering, is that if you don't also use your mind to examine and question the legal and economic structures that are oppressing him, your actions can wind up doing more harm than good. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on that kind of superficial sentimental charity, but evangelicals' infatuation with laissez-faire capitalism means that the leader will actively suppress or deflect any of that type of thinking in their sheeple.

This, a million times this.

Seasalt, I'm not knocking your desire to help people in difficult circumstances, but after reading more on what the 410 project does, I'm simply not convinced that it truly falls in the category of organisations that 'help, not harm'.

The mission trips sound like expensive holidays, with a few days' service thrown in to me. Fine for anyone who wants and can afford a holiday with a few days service thrown in, but if the point is to improve quality of life in Kenya, then $3500 for a short-term trip could probably go a lot further if used differently... for example you'd get a lot of those $39 pm child sponsorships for that amount of money. As to the issue of the 'heart expansion' of the holiday-makers on the mission teams... I dunno, I very much recognise and appreciate the benefit of overseas travel myself, but some of the writing on the 410 blog suggests that the travellers could do with some education back home, before they ever get hold of a passport... much of the text seems to be written by people who don't believe that basic decent human relationships and behaviours can exist without some extraordinary divine heart-stretching exercise.

The medical camp was amazingly successful. First of all, if you would have told me that a team of 17 people could work together cross-culturally without any relational drama, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have believed you. However, God graciously created on our team a spirit of unity, flexibility, and service.

Seriously? a group of privileged adult medical professionals don't know how to get on with strangers without divine intervention?

During our medical camp we were able to see 850 patients in 3 1/2 days, and 293 of them were students that we treated at Ngaamba Primary School. It was encouraging to see everyone seamlessly go through registration (host), triage, treatment, prayer, and pharmacy.

Well now, praise God for priorities, no-one got their meds before spending time in prayer with the mission team! Sounds a lot like "ugly Americans coming in to prosthelytize and such" to me...

And it goes on, in sickly sweet tones of amazement, at what "God" made happen through 410:

Hallelujah! - the women's group have expanded their woollen garment range thanks to the 410 ministry:

The women literally take the wool off the sheep, spin it into thread and make the most beautiful items.

Literally! Like, they haven't a JoAnns within several thousand miles and they still make things with wool!!!111

The whole website smacks of the naivety and privilege of the 'volunteers' and 'leaders' and there doesn't seem to be much evidence of any real learning or any depth of understanding of the issues faced by the people in the villages that are invaded for God.

[SeaSaltCaramel]

FloraPoste wrote:

The problem with "having a heart" for people like the guy in the movie I'm remembering, is that if you don't also use your mind to examine and question the legal and economic structures that are oppressing him, your actions can wind up doing more harm than good. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on that kind of superficial sentimental charity, but evangelicals' infatuation with laissez-faire capitalism means that the leader will actively suppress or deflect any of that type of thinking in their sheeple.

Yes! This!!

Also, I don't think that Christianity has the monopoly on missions. Our local Muslim community does a lot with providing backpacks and school supplies for underprivileged kids. We have future plans on doing more partnering with the Muslim community to help those in need right in our own city. And you are very right when you say that a lot of people could serve well from being educated on the culture and history of the places they are going. I've been working on my interdisciplinary in social sciences with the goal of understanding the government and workings of third world countries so that when efforts are made to help, they are done through the lens of "what is going to help best for long-term sustainability." I appreciate the 410Bridge model because it is one of the very few mission organizations that attempts to do this.

The high cost of these trips do seem to be able to do more good by simply donating the money to the communities for their betterment. But seeing it from their perspective, would you like for a group of faceless people to send you money and supplies alone? Or does it feel more genuine if they make a trip to take these given supplies to work along side you to make it happen and end up with a life-long friend when it's done? Once a community becomes better able to provide their daily needs and improves their own local economy, the mission efforts are cut back to the point where the majority of what remains is a friendship that was built on strengthening a community.

I 100% get that this doesn't make sense when so much of mission work is "preach and leave." All I know from my own personal experience is when I see the gratefulness in the eyes of someone I've helped, whether it be in taking a patient off of a ventilator because they are well enough to breathe on their own, or by being that personal representation of "help" to a child in Kiu, I feel like I'm doing something that matters. I feel like I can be helpful to a fellow human in need. That's all :)