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Fundamentalism and infertility


silvia

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What about if the man is infertile? Would most/some/any fundamentalists be okay with using a sperm donor?

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An interview with Stephanie Clark:

http://pursuingtitus2.com/2011/12/11/vi ... ty-part-2/

She changed her blog name from his-keeper-at-home to mommy in waiting:

http://his-keeper-at-home.blogspot.com/ ... ility.html

Thanks for this. Stephanie's take on infertility actually seems to be fairly mainstream--she's tried fertility drugs but hasn't gone for more intensive evaluation yet due to the cost, and she hasn't yet closed the door on the possibility of IVF (although she stipulates that no embryos could be frozen or destroyed in the process).

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Good points. I think we're actually talking about two different groups here: the QF fundamentalists and the non-QF fundamentalists. For QF fundamentalists, I can see how they might eschew fertility treatment under the "leaving family size up to God" philosophy, although that involves a misunderstanding of infertility's status as an often-treatable medical condition.

For some non-QF fundamentalists, there seems to be a more general passive approach of accepting that it must be "God's will" for them not to have children (if they're trying and not succeeding), which seems like a viewpoint that may spring from an information deficit in some cases. If a couple learned their infertility could be improved or cured with a certain surgery, would they still be so sure it was God's will for them not to have children? Would the more liberal among them then see the surgery--and any subsequent pregnancies--as God's will, much as they might see chemotherapy treatments that cured a family member's cancer as divine intervention?

But fundies on both sides don't have any problem with taking expensive drugs to maintain pregnancies. They don't take what would be losses as "leaving it up to god" or anything. Why is it only okay to interfere with "god's will" once conception takes place, if it does?

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Honestly, I'd just as soon QF'ers eschewed modern fertility treatments.

Good point. And I'd just as soon they eschew having babies the natural way too. The less of 'em the better.

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Since I'm infertile and had to use several rounds of IVF for my daughter, I pay attention when I notice a young fundy couple without a pregnancy within a year or two. A couple I can think of, one couple found out they had a series of pregnancies start, then miscarry, and a new one start to soon after that it seemed like she was constantly pregnant, but never staying pregnant. After 5 in a year and a half, they left their church to find one where they didn't feel so out of place. I haven't read her blog since she turned it private a couple years ago.

Another one, thankfulforeverymoment.blogspot.com , is by a woman who had a hard time getting pregnant, and she had some posts up, that she's deleted, about how she couldn't get pregnant and it was crushing. After a couple years, she got pregnant, and since then, she's had 2 kids, both under 3 years old. I suspect she got fertility help. Her husband is a deacon, so there's no chance they'd ever admit to it. I bet a lot of fundies get fertility help and then deny it.

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What about if the man is infertile? Would most/some/any fundamentalists be okay with using a sperm donor?

My guess is no, what with the negative implications that would have for the "headship's" masculinity. But maybe they do it secretly?

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I think that most quiverful yet infertile couples can afford, in a sense, to wait on infertility testing/treatment because they get married so young. As Stephanie Clark pointed out, even though she and her husband have been married five years they are only in their mid-twenties. The fact that they don't yet have children is not that unusual, given their ages. (The fact that their health insurance is sub-standard may also be partially explained by their youth.) Perhaps as time goes on they will pursue tx more aggressively or decide to go ahead and adopt.

And speaking of do-it-yourself sperm donation, here's a story from the '50s, I think, about just that, although not in a fundy family. It's called Make Him Say Uncle.

thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/289/go-ask-your-father

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I thought I'd voice in as a fundie, now I will preface this by saying I associate with fairly graceful, and less legalistic, fundies. I have never heard anyone I know irl say that infertility is a punishment, usually it is expressed to be a sign that God is calling you to something else, something a woman who has the responsibility of biological children can't do. There is a need for childless, godly women to take on roles that mothers cannot, for example in my circle we all strongly prefer female OBs, GYNs and midwives, and I believe an older, or infertile woman could be called to these occupations, (the fundies I know, myself included, are not against women working, they are against MOTHERS working. All the stay at home daughters I know have at least part time employment or full time volunteering). There are also areas of ministry women are needed or more suited to that take more time than a mum of little ones can offer. And in fostering and adoption, something a lot of fundies would actually like to do, there is a recomendation that you should never take a foster child who is older than your youngest because of the role age has in influence, and obviously if you're having babies in your 40s, you're going to kind of run out of time to take foster kids. If I found myself unable to bear any children before I turn 40 I'd love to take on foster kids, I did not grow up christian and I know how very important fostering is, but even before coming a christian I believed you should never have children younger than foster children, I've seen bad results from that first hand. A fundie family I know who are now infertile after 4 kids have just started the process to foster, just infants and pre-talkers at the moment, since their youngest has just turned 3. So in the less legalistic fundie groups, infertility is often looked upon as a sign of a different calling for your life.

As for treating infertility, first you have to see the difference between those of us that leave it up to God, and those of us who believe in having as many kids as possible. Those who have as many kids as possible, usually the ones who consider breastfeeding to be a form of birth control, will probably take fertility treatments (I am not certain but I think the Bates mother may have taken some fertility treatments) because they don't believe in leaving it up to God, not really, they believe in having a large family.

Those who believe in leaving it up to God will vary widely, and I have met childless couples who believe this. The general rule of thumb is that we should seek treatment for medical issues, but we should not aim to force conception. The problem is drawing the line between the two. So if someone has POCS it should be treated, if someone has a hormone imbalance it should be treated, and if those treatments also result in fertility then that's wonderful, but if you're taking drugs where the intended purpose is simply to make you more likely to concieve, that you will stop taking once you concieve because they don't actually fix anything, that's generally seen as forcing conception. There's a difference between fixing something that's wrong, such as the first two cases, and temporarily altering your bodies 'normal' as the last one is often seen. If you have a physical issue that cannot be fixed that prevents you from having children, such as a deformity or congenital/genetic issue, it's usually seen that forcing conception in that situation is wrong, God made you that way for a reason, but illness and fixable issues are accepted as needing fixing and being meant to be fixed. The biggest thing is everyone draws their own line, and it can vary so greatly, just like QFers vary in their ideas of birth control (some believe extended breastfeeding is sinful, others believe natural family planning methods are perfectly fine). Some families will believe we should do a lot more to promote fertility than others.

To address a couple of direct questions, IVF is usually frowned upon because of the freezing or disposal of embryos, in the minds of fundies that is a life. It's the same as the reason the morning after pill (plan B in the US right?) is considered abortion. A baby is a baby from fertilization, even IVF fertilization, to most QFers.

As for sperm donors, no fundies I know would accept a sperm donor or egg donor because a biological child should be the result of the two parents, and if you're using a sperm donor it's more like an adoption, which is fine but should be treated as such. A biological child is fine, an adopted child is fine, but having a sperm or egg donor blurs that line far more than most fundies are comfortable with. One parent would be a biological parent, one would be an adoptive parent, and that is a sticky situation when you believe that children should only ever be concieved within wedlock.

That is just the opinions and views that I and people around me hold, I know some people feel differently and you have some freaks in the USA who become so absurdly legalistic, we had a taste of that when some "christians" told my mother that our sister died because our mum must have sinned. There's some insane people out there. But no one I am personally associated with would consider infertility a curse or a punishment, simply a different circumstance with different opportunities and responsibilities. I also don't particularly feel like debating whether this is right or wrong, I am simply answering a question and stating beliefs that people in my group of friends hold, not debating them.

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My guess is no, what with the negative implications that would have for the "headship's" masculinity. But maybe they do it secretly?

Maybe, and it's pretty easy to keep secret. You can even order sperm online, so no one would ever have to know. Including, unfortunately, the child. Somehow I doubt most fundies are on board with telling their children the truth, especially if it's stigmatized within their circle.

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And speaking of do-it-yourself sperm donation, here's a story from the '50s, I think, about just that, although not in a fundy family. It's called Make Him Say Uncle.

thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/289/go-ask-your-father

Hey, that's exactly how I was conceived! Except it was 1976, not the 50s. ;)

Sometimes it surprises me how many people don't seem to know that sperm donation and insemination don't require fancy technology or even a trip to a doctor.

I think the link contains misinformation, though. It describes what happened as "in vitro fertilization," and that technology didn't exist when Davis was born. The first IVF baby was Louise Brown, born in 1978.

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In my experience with fundies and fundie-lites, a good Christian couple experiencing infertility merely needs to pray for babies or be thankful for the opportunity to adopt. A non-Christian or wrong-kind-of-Christian couple is infertile because God refuses to bless them with children. Logic fail, as usual.

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Does/Did Kelly Bates really get fertility treatments? I heard gossip about that.

To answer your question;

Kelly Bates is able to conceive naturally but can no longer carry a pregnancy without assistance. IIRC this is due to low levels of a hormone/s. Gil explained in a television interview that they do not consider this fertility treatment as the baby is conceived naturally and the treatment is no different to giving medical treatment to their living children.

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To answer your question;

Kelly Bates is able to conceive naturally but can no longer carry a pregnancy without assistance. IIRC this is due to low levels of a hormone/s. Gil explained in a television interview that they do not consider this fertility treatment as the baby is conceived naturally and the treatment is no different to giving medical treatment to their living children.

Rather than taking it as "god's will" that he doesn't want that baby to be born.

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To answer your question;

Kelly Bates is able to conceive naturally but can no longer carry a pregnancy without assistance. IIRC this is due to low levels of a hormone/s. Gil explained in a television interview that they do not consider this fertility treatment as the baby is conceived naturally and the treatment is no different to giving medical treatment to their living children.

Well, I suppose that *is* in line with the belief that life begins at fertilisation ...

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Guest Anonymous

Twinmama, I'm so glad your treatments were successful! Not sure what type of Christian you are--did you ever have moral qualms about fertility treatment, or get any grief about it from anyone you knew?

Thanks for your kind words. I grew up Southern Baptist. I really had no qualms about seeking treatment, and everyone who knows our story has been extremely supportive. I am pretty open about our situation, because I feel like infertility is so "hush-hush" and not talked about in the open. People who have had no experience with it can have some pretty skewed misconceptions of treatments.

I actually work for a Catholic-based hospital, so all of my treatments were 100% out of pocket - I cashed out my 401K for our last effort. The hospital is self insured, so all of my testing (bloodwork, ultrasounds, etc.) were covered until my MD used the ICD-9 code for infertility, then they were all denied. Once I was pregnant, however, I continued to see the fertility specialist for weekly ultrasounds and bloodwork monitoring, which were covered by my insurance.

I had to dig through some of my old blog posts to find this, which was written about a year into our struggle.

Couples experiencing infertility often receive well-meaning but extremely insensitive advice. We can list all the most popular ones: just relax and you’ll get pregnant, or adopt and you’ll get pregnant, of the most painful from those who think they’ve got the goods on God’s plan; maybe God never meant for you to have children. The sheer audacity of making a statement like that never fails to amaze me.

These same people would never walk up to someone seeking treatment for cancer and say “Maybe God never meant for you to live.†However, because I am infertile, I’m supposed to get on with my life? It’s hard to understand that people cannot see infertility for what it is; a disease for which I have to seek treatment.

What if Jonas Salk had said to the parents of polio victims, “Maybe God meant for thousands of our children to be cripples, live in an iron lung, or die.†What if he’d never tried to find a cure? Who could think for one minute that was God’s plan?

What do I think God meant when he gave me infertility?

I think he meant for my husband and I to grow closer, become stronger, love deeper. I think God meant for us to find the fortitude within ourselves to get up every time infertility knocks us down. I think God meant for our medical community to discover medicines, invent medical equipment, create procedures and protocols. I think God meant for us to find a cure for infertility.

No, God never meant for me not to have children. That’s not my destiny; that’s just a fork in the road I’m on. I’ve been placed on the road less traveled. I’ve gained more compassion, deeper courage, greater inner strength on this journey to resolution and I haven’t let him down.

Frankly, if the truth be known, I think God has singled me out for a special treatment. I think God meant for me to build a thirst for a child so strong and so deep that when that baby is finally placed in my arms, it will be the longest, coolest, most refreshing drink I’ve ever known.

While I would never have chosen infertility, I cannot deny that a fertile woman could never know the joy that awaits me. Yes, one way or another, I will have a baby of my own. And the next time someone wants to offer me unsolicited advice; I’ll say “Don’t tell me what God meant when he handed me infertility. I already know.â€

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Thanks for sharing your words, TwinMama! I think you chose a healthy way to look at your infertility and am glad you didn't beat yourself up over it or think God was trying to punish you. I do feel like the painful periods of life can help us access inner resources we didn't know we possessed.

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Thanks for your kind words. I grew up Southern Baptist. I really had no qualms about seeking treatment, and everyone who knows our story has been extremely supportive. I am pretty open about our situation, because I feel like infertility is so "hush-hush" and not talked about in the open. People who have had no experience with it can have some pretty skewed misconceptions of treatments.

I actually work for a Catholic-based hospital, so all of my treatments were 100% out of pocket - I cashed out my 401K for our last effort. The hospital is self insured, so all of my testing (bloodwork, ultrasounds, etc.) were covered until my MD used the ICD-9 code for infertility, then they were all denied. Once I was pregnant, however, I continued to see the fertility specialist for weekly ultrasounds and bloodwork monitoring, which were covered by my insurance.

I had to dig through some of my old blog posts to find this, which was written about a year into our struggle.

Couples experiencing infertility often receive well-meaning but extremely insensitive advice. We can list all the most popular ones: just relax and you’ll get pregnant, or adopt and you’ll get pregnant, of the most painful from those who think they’ve got the goods on God’s plan; maybe God never meant for you to have children. The sheer audacity of making a statement like that never fails to amaze me.

These same people would never walk up to someone seeking treatment for cancer and say “Maybe God never meant for you to live.†However, because I am infertile, I’m supposed to get on with my life? It’s hard to understand that people cannot see infertility for what it is; a disease for which I have to seek treatment.

What if Jonas Salk had said to the parents of polio victims, “Maybe God meant for thousands of our children to be cripples, live in an iron lung, or die.†What if he’d never tried to find a cure? Who could think for one minute that was God’s plan?

What do I think God meant when he gave me infertility?

I think he meant for my husband and I to grow closer, become stronger, love deeper. I think God meant for us to find the fortitude within ourselves to get up every time infertility knocks us down. I think God meant for our medical community to discover medicines, invent medical equipment, create procedures and protocols. I think God meant for us to find a cure for infertility.

No, God never meant for me not to have children. That’s not my destiny; that’s just a fork in the road I’m on. I’ve been placed on the road less traveled. I’ve gained more compassion, deeper courage, greater inner strength on this journey to resolution and I haven’t let him down.

Frankly, if the truth be known, I think God has singled me out for a special treatment. I think God meant for me to build a thirst for a child so strong and so deep that when that baby is finally placed in my arms, it will be the longest, coolest, most refreshing drink I’ve ever known.

While I would never have chosen infertility, I cannot deny that a fertile woman could never know the joy that awaits me. Yes, one way or another, I will have a baby of my own. And the next time someone wants to offer me unsolicited advice; I’ll say “Don’t tell me what God meant when he handed me infertility. I already know.â€

That's a fantastic attitude.

My favorite religious article on infertility is "Prayer Babies": http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/ar ... Babies.htm

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From what I remember of Mamamilkshake/Koolaidedrinkingmama/Hestia's backstory was that she had difficulties having children and her fundie church looked down on her heavily for it and she apparantly needed to be taken to the hospital once and they would not take her.

I read this years ago on her blog(that is now private) and the details are rather sketchy in my memory.

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