No contraception - life in Manila

[constantgardener]

I don't know if any UK FJers have just been watching BBC2. They have just shown a programme from a series where someone from the UK goes to a developing country to do the same job. This one was a bus driver from London who went to live and work with a bus driver in Manila in the Phillipines, the most densely populated city in the world.

One of the most upsetting parts was when they talked to a friend of the Phillipino family, who wanted to go to get advice on family planning. She had, I think, 13 children. She had had her first baby at 14. She and her whole family lived in a slum house about 1.5m square - you couldn't even stand up straight in it. The doctor at the family planning clinic said that most people believe that children are sent from God to help their parents, but that despite this some women wanted to obtain contraception. The wife of the Phillipino driver in the programme, who had decided to use contraception after 3 children, said she knew she was sinning but that she prayed to be forgiven. Apparently the Phillipino government has tried repeatedly to pass laws providing free contraception but this has been blocked by the Catholic church. Another part of the film showed how people there sort through bags of rubbish for discarded food, then re-cook and sell it, in order to survive. I was literally in tears by this point.

Do all those idiots who want to ban contraception and abortion really want us to go back to living like this? They just don't seem to understand that the only reason they can live comfortable lives with huge families is because they are currently in the minority, and they live in a country where no-one is left to rummage through rubbish bins or go hungry or to die from lack of medical care because they don't earn enough. I would really like to make the Duggars live in a slum in Manila for a couple of months and see how long it took them to consider contraception again.

There are some clips from the programme here: www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00z08wd

[gustava]

Long live Catholicism....not.

[2xx1xy1JD]

It gives some perspective to understand how so many of the women take jobs abroad, even if it means leaving their families behind for years at a time. Around 11% of the population works abroad.

I always wondered how families coped with the separations. Is it possible that for some, they serve as a means of avoiding constant childbearing?

[fundiefun]

I'm a Catholic convert, but I've recently distanced myself from the Catholic church and have been attending our local baptist church. The whole catholics on a mission to ban birth control boggles my mind, and with the laws they try to back and pass I just can't stand with them or support them on that issue.

[lilith]

It gives some perspective to understand how so many of the women take jobs abroad, even if it means leaving their families behind for years at a time. Around 11% of the population works abroad.

I always wondered how families coped with the separations. Is it possible that for some, they serve as a means of avoiding constant childbearing?

Even if that's an unintentional side effect, it gives the family a double economic advantage - foreign income for education etc and less children for it to be shared among.

It's just heartbreaking that women are reduced to having to make that choice though. Many philipino maids work in shocking conditions, often in the middle east where as Christian women they are treated very badly, for very little money by local standards, and only go home to see the children they are doing it all for every three to five years. It's a tragedy that that is the best option for any woman.

[lilith]

I'm a Catholic convert, but I've recently distanced myself from the Catholic church and have been attending our local baptist church. The whole catholics on a mission to ban birth control boggles my mind, and with the laws they try to back and pass I just can't stand with them or support them on that issue.

There are a growing number of fundamentalist baptists, represented by the Duggars etc, who would happily legislate against birth control if they were given the opportunity. And many Catholics who use birth control themselves and would be appalled by any such suggestion.

That said, given the Catholic Church's public stance on these issues and the fact that it openly lobbies for it's stance to become law, especially in the third world, I too would be uncomfortable attending and supporting it's churches.

[doggie]

I posted a story of the catholic church paying Christians in India to have as many children as possible. Free schooling and college and a job.

[QAF_Rocks]

I would really like to make the Duggars live in a slum in Manila for a couple of months and see how long it took them to consider contraception again.

I'll never forget Jim Bob bragging about his enormous number of children to an impoverished family living in a tiny shack in Central America, a family in which several children had died due to who-knows-what horrible disease. Their anti-contraception message is so entrenched, I don't think knowing people who are harmed by lack/stigmatization of birth control would change them at all.

[Elle]

The pro-lifers I will NEVER understand are the ones who also want all contraception to be banned. I personally think contraception should be so easy to get that it would be harder to avoid it. And free. Much cheaper to pay for contraception for everyone than to pay for the babies born to poor moms who didn't want to get pregnant to begin with, plus there would be far fewer people seeking abortions. Also, as a part of contraception, it needs to be EXTREMELY clear what things can lessen the effectiveness of some contraception, like how the pill is less effective when taking some antibiotics, but not a lot of people know that.

[Elle]

I'll never forget Jim Bob bragging about his enormous number of children to an impoverished family living in a tiny shack in Central America, a family in which several children had died due to who-knows-what horrible disease. Their anti-contraception message is so entrenched, I don't think knowing people who are harmed by lack/stigmatization of birth control would change them at all.

These are the people who would talk about their wealth to a poor starving person who lose his job. They lack all awareness for what's appropriate and when to shut the hell up.

I remember the episode when Jchelle and Boob went to San Francisco and Boob bragged about all the kids he had to a shop owner, and the guy was all like, "That's excellent, Sir, god blessed you," and he had that look on his face I recognize as trying not to roll his eyes (there's a reason there are so few kids in San Francisco compared to how many adults there are - good luck finding anyone in a place so concerned about the environmental impact of each person who thinks having so many kids is a wonderful thing to praise). It's really like Boob thinks that boasting about his penis and testicles (I don't know why the thought of him having them is so sickening) working makes him more of a man than anyone else. Well, Boobie, my great-grandfather was one of 18...not counting those who died in childhood. Does that make my dad's mom's dad's dad more of a man?

[B5SnowDog]

Do all those idiots who want to ban contraception and abortion really want us to go back to living like this? They just don't seem to understand that the only reason they can live comfortable lives with huge families is because they are currently in the minority, and they live in a country where no-one is left to rummage through rubbish bins or go hungry or to die from lack of medical care because they don't earn enough. I would really like to make the Duggars live in a slum in Manila for a couple of months and see how long it took them to consider contraception again.

Which country are you referring to? The Duggars definitely live in a country where people go hungry and die because they can't afford medical care.

[Elle]

Which country are you referring to? The Duggars definitely live in a country where people go hungry and die because they can't afford medical care.

And they and others like them favor doing away with what little care the poor do manage to get. Because it's totally what Jesus would do, don'cha know.

[constantgardener]

Which country are you referring to? The Duggars definitely live in a country where people go hungry and die because they can't afford medical care.

Of course you're right, there are people in terrible situations even in rich countries like the US, but my point is there are some safety nets, and many people are able to access financial help or at least are able to afford to insure themselves for some things. I live in the UK so I am not sure exactly what is and isn't available in the US. However I think it is safe to say the US does not have millions of people living in the dire slum conditions like those in Manila.

[B5SnowDog]

Of course you're right, there are people in terrible situations even in rich countries like the US, but my point is there are some safety nets, and many people are able to access financial help or at least are able to afford to insure themselves for some things. I live in the UK so I am not sure exactly what is and isn't available in the US. However I think it is safe to say the US does not have millions of people living in the dire slum conditions like those in Manila.

When you have some time, I recommend looking into poverty in Appalachia. I think you might be surprised to see the level of poverty that is in the US.

[So Many Lies]

The whole fundie attitude about how noble it is to have a full quiver is so silly. It's not noble. It's the norm in many many cozntries around the world. Too stupid to realise they're actually regressing.

[cindyluvs24]

Ah, but suffering is bringing you closer to God so those poor folks should be happy, you see. Unfortunately, the real world does not often dovetail nicely with the Baltimore catechism.

[bananacat]

I really hate how much influence the Catholic Church has world-wide. A lot of people tend to only think about Catholics in the United States or Western world, but they have a ton influence all over the world. They are the perfect example of bringing "charity" with the intention to convert people. No woman should have to give up contraception in order to get enough food for her kids. It's really a shame that women are put into these double binds. They can refuse the charity and limit their family size, or they can accept the charity and have more kids, but then whatever resources they have will be spread among even more children.

[Loveday]

When you have some time, I recommend looking into poverty in Appalachia. I think you might be surprised to see the level of poverty that is in the US.

I've seen the poverty in Appalachia first hand, you're absolutely right. My grandparents lived in the hills of East Tennessee, in an old stone farmhouse on a few acres of land. They didn't have much money but they managed what they had very well. I once went with my grandmother to the home of a distant relative, a second cousin or something, and was shocked to see the difference in how they lived. The house was exactly as you might picture it when hearing the word Appalachia, old, rundown, shacklike, and dirty, and way too small for the number of people living in it. But I hid my shock (I was around 13 or 14) and did my best to pattern my behaviour after my grandmother, who treated them as if they were royalty and she was the honoured one to be allowed in their home, honoured that they'd accepted the gifts she'd brought from her garden and pantry. She never said a word to me about it after we got back home, but I think she knew I was upset learning that people in my own family, however distantly related, lived like that.

And sadly, things haven't gotten better in Appalachia since then, they've gotten worse, in spite of our so-called 'safety nets.' :(

[constantgardener]

Actually I have done some reading in the past about poverty in Appalachia, having become interested after reading a book on the Appalachian Trail. I know that there still is appaling poverty there. And obviously if you look back not very far into many people's family histories you find stories like yours, Loveday. My grandfather was one of 14 children living in poverty in a Lancashire mill town.

But in my initial post I was generalising intentionally. Most people in the western world do not suffer from the same level of poverty of those in countries like the Phillipines. Otherwise the film would have been about London bus driver swapping lives with a bus driver in New York. And what I am trying to say is that by wanting to abolish any way to limit family size, those like the Duggars would bring us down the level of the lowest common denominator.

[B5SnowDog]

And sadly, things haven't gotten better in Appalachia since then, they've gotten worse, in spite of our so-called 'safety nets.' :(

There's still so much work to be done. :(