Teach boys to be chivalrous leaders

[dairyfreelife]

The Better Mom blog has interesting things to say about leading and chivalry. I don't really care, except for the laugh.

Her BIL did chivalrous things:

He asked our father for her hand in marriage.

If a man asked my father for my hand in marriage, I could see him looking at the guy strange and saying "Why should I care? If she wants to marry you, then she'll marry you. She's an adult. It's not my decision to make."

He opens Bonnie’s car door–every time she gets in. If it wasn’t for the fact that she is practical he would run around to her side when she gets out too

Does anyone ever think about WHY we do this for women? What is the reason for it? I mean, my car does not have power locks so I'll unlock the door for others and open the door for them while I'm already there just to be nicec, but to get out and open the door?

He always helps her take off her coat, and put it back on.

I could see this for sexy time, but otherwise, what's the purpose? I can take off and put on my own coat. I've done it for years without help. I'm grateful that I don't have a medical condition that makes putting on clothes difficult and therefore I will enjoy my ability to do so.

In a restaurant, he waits until she is seated first before he sits down.

Okay? Don't see the purpose of this, but whatever.

He opens all doors and lets her step through first.

My philosophy? Whoever gets to the door first opens it for the other and they enter like normal people.

He shields her from the wind and rain by walking a little behind her in stormy conditions.

I'd feel bad for my bf if he did that. It's nice, but there's no reason for him to be the shield. Maybe they should shield each other? Besides, it's an excuse to get close, is it not? ;)

He warms her car up every morning, and in the winter he cleans it off too.

This is nice, but does she ever return the favour?

He carries bags from the car to the house. And never lets her carry anything heavy.

Why? Why not share the bag-carrying and if something is really heavy, take it in together?

I just really don't get why chivalry is so important or noble. Why can't men and women just respect each other and be courteous and mannerly overall toward one another. Hold open the door for those behind you, man or woman. It's mannerly, just gentlemanly. Do each other favours without reward, but when someone does you a favour, why wouldn't you return it in some way to show you appreciate them as well, especially with lovers? I just don't understand the whole be a gentleman and treat her like a lady.

thebettermom.com

[Doomed Harlottt]

The purpose is for show. So when he or his pastor or whoever is demanding that she submit to him, undergo constant pregnancies, and generally exist as a second class citizen, they can all say, "But it's a two way street! Chivalry!"

Chivalry is the big reward women are supposed to get for all their self-effacement and submission. In fact, it's an instult that women are taught to trade their dignity and autonomy for such cheap faux-deference.

[Mountain Girl]

I'd feel bad for my bf if he did that. It's nice, but there's no reason for him to be the shield. Maybe they should shield each other? Besides, it's an excuse to get close, is it not? ;)

Yeah that's a bit much. Share an umbrella or run to the door together or something.

He warms her car up every morning, and in the winter he cleans it off too.

This is nice, but does she ever return the favour?

My husband usually leaves the house first and comes home first so in the winter he'll clear a path to my car and brush it off. I love him for it because I hate fighting with snow, but I also do nice things for him. I guess you could say he's chivalrous and manly, and I'm chivalrous and manly right back :dance:

He carries bags from the car to the house. And never lets her carry anything heavy.

Why? Why not share the bag-carrying and if something is really heavy, take it in together?

You can't do anything that will diminish the value of his god-given superior upper body strength. You don't him to be man-sad.

Edited because I really do understand how quotes work.

[Mountain Girl]

Chivalry is the big reward women are supposed to get for all their self-effacement and submission. In fact, it's an instult that women are taught to trade their dignity and autonomy for such cheap faux-deference.

I think you nailed it.

[StarrieEyedKat]

My philosophy? Whoever gets to the door first opens it for the other and they enter like normal people.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't know anyone who does this IRL, other than valets at fancy places.

I see these as small things that may be nice for some people, but which don't make much difference.

I'd be interested in knowing, however, if "chivalry" extends to the following tasks:

- changing diapers

- getting up with a crying baby at 3 a.m.

- taking over all childcare and household tasks when wife is 9 mos. preg. or post-partum

- doing the grocery shopping

- cooking meals

- cleaning up after meals, including doing the dishes

- cleaning the washroom, especially any "splashes" around the toilet

- doing the laundry, or taking the clean clothes back upstairs

[margiebargie]

You can't do anything that will diminish the value of his god-given superior upper body strength. You don't him to be man-sad.

man-sad...hahahahahaha. God forbid - we can't have man-sadness.

[Kaylee]

I don't know anyone who does this IRL, other than valets at fancy places.

I see these as small things that may be nice for some people, but which don't make much difference.

I'd be interested in knowing, however, if "chivalry" extends to the following tasks:

- changing diapers

- getting up with a crying baby at 3 a.m.

- taking over all childcare and household tasks when wife is 9 mos. preg. or post-partum

- doing the grocery shopping

- cooking meals

- cleaning up after meals, including doing the dishes

- cleaning the washroom, especially any "splashes" around the toilet

- doing the laundry, or taking the clean clothes back upstairs

Of course not, because most of those things would be done at home and there wouldn't be an audience present to see how manly and chivalrous he was being.

[Kaylee]

Also,even when a man is really chivalrous, it tends to stop once you've been married a while and/or when there's not an audience.

My dad will do all that stuff for my mom out in public around people he knows and wants to think well of him but, at home, he can't even be bothered to pick his dirty socks up off the floor and my mom unloads the groceries, paints the walls, mows the lawn, etc so he's not worried about protecting her from heavy lifting or hard work.

My husband used to do the whole open the car door, pull out the chair, carry the heavy stuff, help me with my coat routine to the point it was ridiculous - like making me stand in the rain while he walked around to open the door instead of pushing the damn unlock button so I could get it myself. This didn't extend to doing anything at home when there wasn't an audience it and wasn't uncommon for him to start cussing me and telling me how worthless I am as soon as the car door that he oh-so-valiantly opened was shut.

[constantgardener]

He carries bags from the car to the house. And never lets her carry anything heavy.

I bet this doesn't extend to toting a womb-full of babies around.

[Evilbad]

I'm going to tell my DH to be chivalrous and move that fucking couch himself, next time.

[Letgo]

man-sad...hahahahahaha. God forbid - we can't have man-sadness.

Man-sad. I love it! I am so going to use that. So if a woman lifts or carries something heavy, her headship will be man-sad because he missed an opportunity to show off his upper body strength? Where do they get these ideas? They must all be so insecure. Why can't they just be mutually respectful and helpful toward each other?

[Olivia]

Well, I do think everyone should hold doors open for each other and generally be polite, regardless of their sex. But my husband does some of these things, and we have a very egalitarian marriage (and he's an atheist, so definitely no fundie things going on here :)).

It's not mutually exclusive to be respected by one's husband as an equal partner and also treated by a particular set of standards; it seems almost andocentric to me to think that either women must be treated without any sort of 'chivalry' or be treated as less than men, and I think this view is one that fundies use to justify their abhorrence of feminism. Now, I don't really care what men at large do or what other people's husbands do. I think it's ridiculous to judge another's relationship for how they interact on such inconsequential things, but I also think that goes both ways.

[patsymae]

If he is shielding her from the rain, shouldn't he be in front of her, not behind her?

[holierthanyou]

Also,even when a man is really chivalrous, it tends to stop once you've been married a while and/or when there's not an audience.

My dad will do all that stuff for my mom out in public around people he knows and wants to think well of him but, at home, he can't even be bothered to pick his dirty socks up off the floor and my mom unloads the groceries, paints the walls, mows the lawn, etc so he's not worried about protecting her from heavy lifting or hard work.

My husband used to do the whole open the car door, pull out the chair, carry the heavy stuff, help me with my coat routine to the point it was ridiculous - like making me stand in the rain while he walked around to open the door instead of pushing the damn unlock button so I could get it myself. This didn't extend to doing anything at home when there wasn't an audience it and wasn't uncommon for him to start cussing me and telling me how worthless I am as soon as the car door that he oh-so-valiantly opened was shut.

I am sorry for this, Raine. You deserve so much better!

[2xx1xy1JD]

Olivia - it's not that there is anything wrong with these gestures per se.

It's that:

1. Most of these gestures are not genuinely helpful

2. We've seen examples on blogs of boys/men who actually get angry and feel "disrespected" if women don't allow them to do these things and then express proper appreciation

3. There's a concern that these gestures are meaningless if they don't match what happens in the privacy of the home, after marriage

4. Rote gestures are not based on responding to the actual needs and feelings of one's partner.

5. Some of the same people who insist on these gestures of chivalry will also have no problem in assigning women tasks that are far more physically demanding (like birthing and caring for many children, without much break in between), and it seem utterly hypocritical to open a door while courting, but leave her to struggle with carrying kids while pregnant if he's nowhere in sight.

6. Yes, there's also the idea that respect and helpfulness works both ways. I can tell you that ever since my hubby's eye problems, I've been doing anything requiring lifting, all the driving and guiding him around.

[Boltingmadonna]

My father was not chivalrous so much as having very rigid ideas about proper gender roles that he imposed on everyone around him whether they liked it or not. For instance, in his 70s he still insisted on carrying my mother's suitcase as well as his own. When I went on a trip with them, he also insisted on carrying MY bag. So he was sweating along with three suitcases, and getting extremely grumpy about having to walk to the taxi stand--something that would have been very easy if he'd let me carry my own damn bag. In addition, since I suspected he would pull this, I had packed very light. I left out a lot of things that would have been convenient for me to have, and that I could easily have carried, just because I knew he'd insist on carrying my bag. He wasn't polite about it, either. He acted as if any female who offered to carry something was trying to emasculate him. It was a huge pain in the ass. I think if a man truly wanted to be chivalrous instead of controlling, he might say something like "That looks heavy. May I help you?" and then accept whatever answer he gets, and be nice about it.

[Austin]

At the risk of being totally skewered, my husband does some of these things. He does hold my coat while I'm taking it off or putting it on. He pulls out my chair at a restaurant. He opens the door for me as we are getting in the car, but not as we're exiting (I'm not patient enough for that - lol - so we never got into that habit). He opens doors for me (and anybody else who may be behind him). He makes sure that my car is gassed up regularly and carries heavy packages when we're shopping.

It is not for show and I know he doesn't consciously think, "Oh, I should be chivalrous and do [fill in the blank] for my wife"; it is just part of being a man of a certain age (he'll be 59 this year) and frankly, habit. He is not sexist, and none of this is done because he believes that I am incapable (not even remotely). I can open doors, get into my own coat, pull out my own chair, open my own doors, pump my own gas, and carry heavy things, and I do all the time when we're not together.

Also, he would never lecture anyone else on the necessity of doing these things, and does not need to do these things to feel useful or relevant. And he does not do these things for anyone other than me, so it has nothing to do with how he views women in general (most of his co-workers have always been women and considers women his equal and the equal of men in general. Conversely, I do NOT expect or even accept these acts from other men. These actions feel almost intimate to me and is just something between my husband and me is part of our 32-year-relationship/30-year-marriage.

[lilith]

It is interesting that most of these are public acts.

It reminded me of my ex husband. I always used to put the pram in and out of the car boot and take babies and groceries in, even when I was very pregnant.

But if we were leaving a friends house and had an audience, he would rush to do it for me.

I remember late in my last pregnancy, about a year before I left him, calling him on it in front of friends, saying "but I always do the pram and carseats, why are you rushing around getting in my way?". And we had a huge fight all the way home in which he insisted that he always helped even when there wasn't an audience and I was just being crazy and pregnant. But then when we got home he stormed in and I unloaded babies and pram........ :roll:

[ladypuglover]

My husband always does things to make my life a little easier but not because he really is a gentleman, he is a West Point graduate therefore has the paper saying he is an officer and a gentleman, but because that is who he is. Sometimes he forgets to warm up my car but because he already got 5 kids off to school and shoveled the driveway. Sometimes he forgets to take the trash out tot he curb but he already did the above and changed the cat litter and gathered up all the trash having everything ready to go.

To me he is the perfect gentleman. He is my knight in shining armor when at 3 am we hear the sounds of a child throwing up or worse get the full blown effects in our bed. He cleans up the mess and washes everything while I shower the child and see about drugging the child if needed. The child and I make it back to bed before he does. Also it would take 4 times as long if we switched jobs as I gag when cleaning up throw up and always join in myself. He knows that and does it.

When a dog or cat is sick/hurting during the night he always jumps up with me to problem solve the illness. He knows I without help will find it to be in the throws of death and will hual the creature off to the animal er when with his help it can be treated at home. He knows I can't handle seeing a person or animal in discomfort and gives up his sleep to calm the child/pet and calm me. Even if it is in the middle of the night feeding a baby feild mouse that I rescued from a blizzard. He will wake up to feed the damn thing kitten formula with me just to keep me from crying that I'm not doing enough.

When he helps others it is because he really wants to help not because he has be trained to. He gets as much out of it as the person he helps and I think that shows. Caring is his very nature.

[Austin]

My husband always does things to make my life a little easier but not because he really is a gentleman, he is a West Point graduate therefore has the paper saying he is an officer and a gentleman, but because that is who he is. Sometimes he forgets to warm up my car but because he already got 5 kids off to school and shoveled the driveway. Sometimes he forgets to take the trash out tot he curb but he already did the above and changed the cat litter and gathered up all the trash having everything ready to go.

To me he is the perfect gentleman. He is my knight in shining armor when at 3 am we hear the sounds of a child throwing up or worse get the full blown effects in our bed. He cleans up the mess and washes everything while I shower the child and see about drugging the child if needed. The child and I make it back to bed before he does. Also it would take 4 times as long if we switched jobs as I gag when cleaning up throw up and always join in myself. He knows that and does it.

When a dog or cat is sick/hurting during the night he always jumps up with me to problem solve the illness. He knows I without help will find it to be in the throws of death and will hual the creature off to the animal er when with his help it can be treated at home. He knows I can't handle seeing a person or animal in discomfort and gives up his sleep to calm the child/pet and calm me. Even if it is in the middle of the night feeding a baby feild mouse that I rescued from a blizzard. He will wake up to feed the damn thing kitten formula with me just to keep me from crying that I'm not doing enough.

When he helps others it is because he really wants to help not because he has be trained to. He gets as much out of it as the person he helps and I think that shows. Caring is his very nature.

Our husbands seem to have some things in common. I'm not sure I would ask him to feed a field mouse (I have a phobia of rodents of all types) :D , but he has always been right there in the thick of the kids' puking and pooping and night terrors and anything else that came up. It has nothing to do with show. He is exactly the same when we're alone as when we're not.

Well, not exactly, but you know what I mean. :D

[Olivia]

Olivia - it's not that there is anything wrong with these gestures per se.

It's that:

1. Most of these gestures are not genuinely helpful

2. We've seen examples on blogs of boys/men who actually get angry and feel "disrespected" if women don't allow them to do these things and then express proper appreciation

3. There's a concern that these gestures are meaningless if they don't match what happens in the privacy of the home, after marriage

4. Rote gestures are not based on responding to the actual needs and feelings of one's partner.

5. Some of the same people who insist on these gestures of chivalry will also have no problem in assigning women tasks that are far more physically demanding (like birthing and caring for many children, without much break in between), and it seem utterly hypocritical to open a door while courting, but leave her to struggle with carrying kids while pregnant if he's nowhere in sight.

6. Yes, there's also the idea that respect and helpfulness works both ways. I can tell you that ever since my hubby's eye problems, I've been doing anything requiring lifting, all the driving and guiding him around.

Oh, yes, I get all that. If those gestures were ALL I got from my husband, he would be pretty much shit as a husband -- we both respond to each other's needs, we share the work around the house, and I'm confident once Mini-Olivia arrives, he'll be an involved father who takes on his fair share of diaper changes and night feedings. But it seemed to me like the gestures themselves were being bashed on, and I think that's just silly. I can be both respected and doted on by him just fine.

For the record, I warm up his car for him when I make it out there first, and I was the one to take out the trash this morning because I was up earlier -- neither of which hurt his manly man feelings one bit!

[QAF_Rocks]

Well, I do think everyone should hold doors open for each other and generally be polite, regardless of their sex. But my husband does some of these things, and we have a very egalitarian marriage (and he's an atheist, so definitely no fundie things going on here :)).

It's not mutually exclusive to be respected by one's husband as an equal partner and also treated by a particular set of standards; it seems almost andocentric to me to think that either women must be treated without any sort of 'chivalry' or be treated as less than men, and I think this view is one that fundies use to justify their abhorrence of feminism. Now, I don't really care what men at large do or what other people's husbands do. I think it's ridiculous to judge another's relationship for how they interact on such inconsequential things, but I also think that goes both ways.

But I think the very concept of chivalry dictates that women be treated by a particular set of standards simply because they are women. That's what seems off to me. If couples are going to do nice things for each other, then in an egalitarian relationship, it should run both ways. Men shouldn't always be the ones holding open doors or carrying heavy items or pulling out chairs. In an equal relationship, each partner would perform those actions 50% of the time.

The thing about chivalry is that it treats women like children. The man is the protector, and the woman is the protected. But grown women aren't children. I don't want to be protected. I don't want to be taken care of. I don't want special treatment or consideration because of my sex. I just want to be treated like an equal.

[notsocommon]

*like*

[Mountain Girl]

Ladypuglover, I gag at other people's vomit to. Caring for puking children has always been the hubby's job. I do the coughs and colds because he can't stand snot or phlegm.