If God made me in his image then why am I imperfect?

[DarkAnts]

I am in no way perfect. I was born with a genetic skin condition called icthyosis. Its a condition where my body produces skin cells faster then it sheds old ones. My skin is not smooth. It lacks an even skin tone and has a tendency to become infected if I cut it. On top of this, I have psoriasis, allergies, asthma, and stretch marks due to the icthyosis and psoriasis.

i have always struggled with religion. I was told that God was perfect and he made me in his image. If I am not perfect then it is my fault. I have done something wrong to cause God to punish me. As an adult, I know that there was nothing I could do to keep these genetic conditions from happening. I have also come to the conclusion that if God made me in his image, then God is not perfect. He has faults (I think one of those faults is being quick to anger). I understand now that no one can be perfect. My skin condition makes others uncomfortable because it makes them confront the fact that they are not perfect. I am tempted to start a blog to talk about living as an imperfect person. I have not done so yet, because it would be a big commitment.

I do have some questions for research sake. How do fundies deal with the genetic "imperfections"? Also, how do they deal with the fact that there are a variety of skin colors? (If God made all of us in his image, then he must either have polka dots or stripes).

[SpeakNow]

I am in no way perfect. I was born with a genetic skin condition called icthyosis. Its a condition where my body produces skin cells faster then it sheds old ones. My skin is not smooth. It lacks an even skin tone and has a tendency to become infected if I cut it. On top of this, I have psoriasis, allergies, asthma, and stretch marks due to the icthyosis and psoriasis.

i have always struggled with religion. I was told that God was perfect and he made me in his image. If I am not perfect then it is my fault. I have done something wrong to cause God to punish me. As an adult, I know that there was nothing I could do to keep these genetic conditions from happening. I have also come to the conclusion that if God made me in his image, then God is not perfect. He has faults (I think one of those faults is being quick to anger). I understand now that no one can be perfect. My skin condition makes others uncomfortable because it makes them confront the fact that they are not perfect. I am tempted to start a blog to talk about living as an imperfect person. I have not done so yet, because it would be a big commitment.

I do have some questions for research sake. How do fundies deal with the genetic "imperfections"? Also, how do they deal with the fact that there are a variety of skin colors? (If God made all of us in his image, then he must either have polka dots or stripes).

I've had one fundie tell me that we weren't created in his physical image. Rather, each of us possess G-dly characteristics and the ability to behave in a G-dly way. Not sure if that really clears anything up though...

[QAF_Rocks]

This sort of dilemma is easily solved by not believing in a god at all. ;)

[DarkAnts]

I've had one fundie tell me that we weren't created in his physical image. Rather, each of us possess G-dly characteristics and the ability to behave in a G-dly way. Not sure if that really clears anything up though...

In other words, they dance around the issue.They say that everything must be taken literally, then, they do things like this to compensate for their religion not accommodating their word view.. Another example is saying jesus drank grape juice instead of wine.

[DarkAnts]

This sort of dilemma is easily solved by not believing in a god at all. ;)

True, but, I am not sure that I have written the existence of something helping to create our worlds. Besides, how can you explain the existence the platypus? My explanation is that god either has a good sense of humor or had spare parts after making the rest of the animals.

[Elle]

Physical ailments are seen as punishments for what the mothers did wrong, and mental imperfections are the result of not beating the kids long enough. I really had a friend told she needed to beat the autism out of her kid. She and her family left that church.

[Elle]

True, but, I am not sure that I have written the existence of something helping to create our worlds. Besides, how can you explain the existence the platypus? My explanation is that god either has a good sense of humor or had spare parts after making the rest of the animals.

Perry disagrees with you!

But I agree. Also platypuses are awesome.

[DarkAnts]

Physical ailments are seen as punishments for what the mothers did wrong, and mental imperfections are the result of not beating the kids long enough. I really had a friend told she needed to beat the autism out of her kid. She and her family left that church.

My mother had many faults. They were all related to being bipolar and not getting effective treatment for it. I still remember visiting her in the hospital after she had shock therapy (They still do use electric shock therapy). It never helped her. She would be a empty eye zombie for a few days and then go back into the bipolar cycle. The bipolar complicated with the way she was raised, caused her to abuse us. I dont blame my imperfect body on her. I do blame my nightmares and generalized anxiety disorder on her behavior though.

Now back to Platypuses, have you seen the P-P-Platypus song video? It will get stuck in your head.

0gM5TjSOQ48

[adidas]

Most mainstream Christians are taught that humans were created in God's (ie perfect) image before the fall. The fall was the catalyst for all bad things and nothing was perfect any more.

[holysnark]

Just thought I'd throw my few cents in as a Christian myself. :)

I do believe we were created in God's image. When God made Adam and Eve they were perfect. They were not designed to die. When sin entered our world it caused Adam and Eve to eventually die, and it caused imperfections in humans as a whole.

Any genetic issues, health issues, etc., are not a punishment from God. ((Or at least I don't believe they are)) There is nothing you, your mother, father, etc. ever did to make this happen, it's just something that did happen.

I hate that people would think that God would want them to suffer, I think that's foolish. We do go through trials, and it's not always easy to understand why things happen.

I hope this is ok to say, just my opinion one way or the other!

[snarkbillie]

Just thought I'd throw my few cents in as a Christian myself. :)

I do believe we were created in God's image. When God made Adam and Eve they were perfect. They were not designed to die. When sin entered our world it caused Adam and Eve to eventually die, and it caused imperfections in humans as a whole.

Sin didn't "cause" Adam and Eve to die. God "caused" them to die by kicking them out of the garden so they couldn't eat from the tree of life. They could have sinned all they wanted and still lived forever but God took action to prevent that. If you want to take the Bible literally you should probably actually read it once in a while.

[debrand]

Because we are talking about the fall, I thought I should point out that Adam and Eve ate the fruit but all the poor animals had to suffer along with them.

That has never seemed fair to me. Why should dogs and cats suffer old age or mice get eaten by owls because two human animals ate some piece of fruit?(I was always taught that there was no death before the fall) For that matter, why should anyone except Adam and Eve suffer from the effects of the fall?

The entire Eden only makes sense if you do not take it literally. Why would Eve be so nonchalant about a talking snake? Was it common for animals to talk in Eden?

Apparently, god didn't create Adam and Eve with an understanding of right or wrong. What parent puts a forbidden object within reach of their underage children? Seriously, would you put a cup of hot coffee in reach of a child who is just beginning to walk? And what loving parent would allow a person who hates their child to have free access to that child?

The story only makes sense as an allegory about free choice and consequences. As a true story it makes god look like a giant asshole.

[fundiefan]

Because we are talking about the fall, I thought I should point out that Adam and Eve ate the fruit but all the poor animals had to suffer along with them.

That has never seemed fair to me. Why should dogs and cats suffer old age or mice get eaten by owls because two human animals ate some piece of fruit?(I was always taught that there was no death before the fall) For that matter, why should anyone except Adam and Eve suffer from the effects of the fall?

The entire Eden only makes sense if you do not take it literally. Why would Eve be so nonchalant about a talking snake? Was it common for animals to talk in Eden?

Apparently, god didn't create Adam and Eve with an understanding of right or wrong. What parent puts a forbidden object within reach of their underage children? Seriously, would you put a cup of hot coffee in reach of a child who is just beginning to walk? And what loving parent would allow a person who hates their child to have free access to that child?

The story only makes sense as an allegory about free choice and consequences. As a true story it makes god look like a giant asshole.

Yes, that.

[deelaem]

Most mainstream Christians are taught that humans were created in God's (ie perfect) image before the fall. The fall was the catalyst for all bad things and nothing was perfect any more.

In the words of the Church Lady, how conveeeeenient! :lol:

[Beb]

Just thought I'd throw my few cents in as a Christian myself. :)

I do believe we were created in God's image. When God made Adam and Eve they were perfect. They were not designed to die.

So God made a mistake? How does a perfect being "fall"? Does this mean God can fall?

[DarkAnts]

So God made a mistake? How does a perfect being "fall"? Does this mean God can fall?

I dont see god as being perfect. If you read the bible, then you can see a few places where god was not perfect. God put temptation in front of Adam and Eve and told them not to touch it. God never explained the consequences to them. I dont think Eve would have done it if she had known how bad it would be. God also exterminated most of the human population during the flood. God obviously has an anger problem in the old testament.

[Beb]

I dont see god as being perfect. If you read the bible, then you can see a few places where god was not perfect. God put temptation in front of Adam and Eve and told them not to touch it. God never explained the consequences to them. I dont think Eve would have done it if she had known how bad it would be. God also exterminated most of the human population during the flood. God obviously has an anger problem in the old testament.

Well, I tend to agree, but then, we are using logic. People who want to take the bible in a literal sense will point out where it refers to God in that manner--that he IS perfect and not only will not, but CANnot look upon sin because of this sinless perfection.

The bible is chockfull of contradiction, and the only ways to reconcile it are to either ignore what doesn't fit the personal criteria or to "accept it by faith."

Huh?

[valsa]

I dont see god as being perfect. If you read the bible, then you can see a few places where god was not perfect. God put temptation in front of Adam and Eve and told them not to touch it. God never explained the consequences to them. I dont think Eve would have done it if she had known how bad it would be. God also exterminated most of the human population during the flood. God obviously has an anger problem in the old testament.

But why hold an imperfect being as the arbitrator of moral good and bad? If he's not perfect, then you have no way of trusting he's morally correct about all things or anything. Plus there's the problem that, even if you believe a higher power did create our world, how do you go from that to deciding it was the Christian God who created our world? Especially if you think the Christian God is imperfect.

Also, before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they had no knowledge of good and evil. If you have no knowledge of good and evil, how can you know it's wrong to disobey an order? Adam and Eve had no way of knowing that disobeying God was wrong because they had no knowledge of right and wrong.

[DarkAnts]

Well, I tend to agree, but then, we are using logic. People who want to take the bible in a literal sense will point out where it refers to God in that manner--that he IS perfect and not only will not, but CANnot look upon sin because of this sinless perfection.

The bible is chockfull of contradiction, and the only ways to reconcile it are to either ignore what doesn't fit the personal criteria or to "accept it by faith."

Huh?

I use logic when reading the bible. I dont see it as being perfect. I know that it was first passed on by oral story telling. The stories would get distorted throughout the tellings. It was hand written down. Before the printing press, ever copy had to be transcribed. Parts were added or removed with each copy. I consider it to be similar to a man catching fish. He may start out saying it was a foot long. He then may tell his buddies that it was very large to look cool. With each telling, the fish gets bigger. The fish eventually ends up being the size of a whale.

Other logic is that it was some things got lost or added during translation of the bible. Some words in Latin and Hebrew have more then one meaning. English and other languages also lacks words. Latin has more then one word for love. We now sometimes assume that love between two unrelated adults must be romantic love.

There is also a certain amount of historical translation that needs to occur. The sins at Sodom and Gomorrah were sins of inhospitality. Hospitality were important back in that time. It was important to treat visitors with respect and invite them into your home.

[slh12280]

I guess I'll add my two cents. I believe that our souls are made in the image of God. Meaning we have some of the character qualities of God and our souls never die just like God never does. This is what separates humans from animals.

[Beb]

I use logic when reading the bible. I dont see it as being perfect. I know that it was first passed on by oral story telling. The stories would get distorted throughout the tellings. It was hand written down. Before the printing press, ever copy had to be transcribed. Parts were added or removed with each copy. I consider it to be similar to a man catching fish. He may start out saying it was a foot long. He then may tell his buddies that it was very large to look cool. With each telling, the fish gets bigger. The fish eventually ends up being the size of a whale.

Other logic is that it was some things got lost or added during translation of the bible. Some words in Latin and Hebrew have more then one meaning. English and other languages also lacks words. Latin has more then one word for love. We now sometimes assume that love between two unrelated adults must be romantic love.

There is also a certain amount of historical translation that needs to occur. The sins at Sodom and Gomorrah were sins of inhospitality. Hospitality were important back in that time. It was important to treat visitors with respect and invite them into your home.

Yes, I have this conversation with fundies on a regular basis. I couldn't agree with you more.

My reply in this thread was to the fundie who based her response here on her contention that God is perfect and created perfect Adam and Eve who nevertheless, were not immune to "the fall." We're supposedly told that in God's perfect word--the Bible. In order to believe that, one must suspend logic -- even the most basic and simplistic that I used on her. That isn't even a deep or meaningful argument, and yet, it is one that would be considered blasphemous or unknowing by the person to whom I replied.

The age-old and primary argument of logic against the perfection of God is the one that asks why he felt a need to create if he is complete and perfect in and of himself.

[DarkAnts]

But why hold an imperfect being as the arbitrator of moral good and bad? If he's not perfect, then you have no way of trusting he's morally correct about all things or anything. Plus there's the problem that, even if you believe a higher power did create our world, how do you go from that to deciding it was the Christian God who created our world? Especially if you think the Christian God is imperfect.

Also, before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they had no knowledge of good and evil. If you have no knowledge of good and evil, how can you know it's wrong to disobey an order? Adam and Eve had no way of knowing that disobeying God was wrong because they had no knowledge of right and wrong.

I dont consider god to be the arbitrator of what is morally good or bad. Like I said, I think of god as a mad scientist. I think god provided the catalyst for getting hydrogen atoms to combine to create other atoms. He/she may have provided some structure to the timeline of the creation of the world. She/he may have also provided some structure for how our bodies function. I see god in the bible as someone who enjoyed playing king to the early humans. As time went on, god got tired and decided to let us live our lies with minimal interaction with the way the world works at large. This includes human interaction. It explains why god did not stop the hijackers from hitting the world trade center or pentagon. It also explains why god is not stopping the violence in Syria. Edit: It also explains why I never got a pony when I prayed for it.

I consider morality to be the way we treat other people. Your actions are immoral if they hurt other people. This is why I never saw gay marriage as being immoral. They are not hurting other humans by being romantically involved with someone of the same sex. This is the definition I would use even if I decided to stop believing. Its a simple way to determine if your actions are moral.

Children dont understand good from evil. They have to be taught this. They learn this trough negative consequences for bad behavior. If you hit your sister or bite your friend, then you will go into time out. They also learn that positive human interactions have positive consequences. If you are being good then you will receive praise. If you do your chores, then you may get an allowance. I think that Eve would have understand that if she ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge then she would have been kicked out of the garden. She would not know why its bad but she would know that it would resolute in bad things.

[valsa]

I dont consider god to be the arbitrator of what is morally good or bad. Like I said, I think of god as a mad scientist. I think god provided the catalyst for getting hydrogen atoms to combine to create other atoms. He/she may have provided some structure to the timeline of the creation of the world. She/he may have also provided some structure for how our bodies function. I see god in the bible as someone who enjoyed playing king to the early humans. As time went on, god got tired and decided to let us live our lies with minimal interaction with the way the world works at large. This includes human interaction. It explains why god did not stop the hijackers from hitting the world trade center or pentagon. It also explains why god is not stopping the violence in Syria.

I'm curious then, do you believe in the Christian God or just a general "higher power"?

I consider morality to be the way we treat other people. Your actions are immoral if they hurt other people. This is why I never saw gay marriage as being immoral. They are not hurting other humans by being romantically involved with someone of the same sex. This is the definition I would use even if I decided to stop believing. Its a simple way to determine if your actions are moral.

Then why do we need god?

Children dont understand good from evil. They have to be taught this. They learn this trough negative consequences for bad behavior. If you hit your sister or bite your friend, then you will go into time out. They also learn that positive human interactions have positive consequences. If you are being good then you will receive praise. If you do your chores, then you may get an allowance. I think that Eve would have understand that if she ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge then she would have been kicked out of the garden. She would not know why its bad but she would know that it would resolute in bad things.

How? Where does it say God told Adam and Ever what would happen? For that matter, even if they did know eating the fruit would get them kicked out of the garden, how would they be able to understand what that entailed. If I had a toddler and told them "If you hit your sister again, I'm going to send you to Budapest to work information technology systems!", that threat is so outside their realm of experience, how could they possibly put it in context.

[DarkAnts]

I'm curious then, do you believe in the Christian God or just a general "higher power"?

Then why do we need god?

How? Where does it say God told Adam and Ever what would happen? For that matter, even if they did know eating the fruit would get them kicked out of the garden, how would they be able to understand what that entailed. If I had a toddler and told them "If you hit your sister again, I'm going to send you to Budapest to work information technology systems!", that threat is so outside their realm of experience, how could they possibly put it in context.

I'm curious then, do you believe in the Christian God or just a general "higher power"?

I believe in a higher power. Its not a christian god as described in the bible. Statically speaking, the chance is low that two hydrogen atoms of the right energy would collide in the correct way to create healium. There is an even smaller chance that three atoms with the right energy states would collide in the correct way to create other atoms. The amount of activation energy required to start this chain of chemical reactions is quite large. One of the first principles of science is that energy and matter can not be created or destroyed. It can be transferred. I think that the energy had to be transferred into the system by something. I may be naive, but, I believe it the energy came from a source outside our universe.

Then why do we need god?

We dont need a god. I know plenty of atheists who have a stronger moral compass then extremely devout religious people.

How? Where does it say God told Adam and Ever what would happen?

God never told them what would happen. I consider this to be another example of how god is not perfect. I think that God could have explained that there would be great consequences that were within Adam and Eves understanding.

[RR88]

A Satanic perspective would be that we ourselves are gods, in a sense, captains of our own destiny who have the ability to create and destroy and alter. I prefer this idea to one where I am modeled after what I see as the petulant and cruel deity of the Bible.