Oh Mullet, what will it be next?

[JMarie]

One of her kids could write completely backwards? Reminds me of the little boy from The Shining, you know, the REDRUM kid.

[marmalade]

One of her kids could write completely backwards? Reminds me of the little boy from The Shining, you know, the REDRUM kid.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I doubt she's heard of DaVinci. But her little veiled remark about Einstein is ironic since none of her kids will ever have the opportunity to be an underperforming public school student whose skill set in a certain area is recognized, nurtured and expanded upon in adulthood.

Nice strawman there, Mullet.

[geniebelle6901]

Since the huge public backlash over the Jubilee, she's just trying to win brownie points, and failing miserably at it. If any of the kids have learning disabilities they need to seek out the help of a professional. And Hell will freeze over before that happens.

[Jessica]

They ARE reading challenged. It is not because they are "dyslexic". It is because they are uneducated enough at age 5 or 6 to think that "monkey" starts with a J. And if they were in public school and labelled as "reading challenged" they would get professional help, not be left to run amok all day with no hint of an education or concern for getting back on track. I'm all for alternative education (I plan to homeschool) including unschooling if it's done right. You can't even call what they do "unschooling" because there's just NOTHING go on. They aren't allowed to have any interests to persue. Educational material isn't left out for them to discover. They aren't allowed to go to any clubs like 4H, Roots & Shoots, Boy Scouts, gymnastics, little league, etc. They're just left to fend for themselves. If it weren't for Jana, Jill, Jessa, and Jinger (heck, maybe just Jana and Jill) it would be Lord of the Flies all over again. Sick.

[Witsec5]

She is operating off of the old premise that dyslexia is related to visual processing. Now we know better; memory, visual-motor integration, auditory processing including phonemic awareness and automaticity are the primary factors. Getting letters out of order is common and a lot that has to do with visual memory--not visual processing. Backwards writing, not so much Mullet! She's about 30 years behind when it comes to thinking about dyslexia. Here is a clip from an article I found online that says it better than I do.

Dyslexic children also experience difficulties with 'jumbled spellings'. These are spelling attempts in which all the correct letters are present, but are written in the wrong order. Examples include dose/does, freind/friend, siad/said, bule/blue, becuase/because, and wores/worse. 'Jumbled spellings' show that the child is experiencing difficulty with visual memory. Non-dyslexic children and adults often use their visual memory when trying to remember a difficult spelling: they write down two or three possible versions of the word on a spare piece of paper and see which spelling 'looks right'. They are relying on their visual memory to help them, but the visual memory of a dyslexic child may not be adequate for this task.

Again, it's hard to tell whether they have a learning disability. If I were the evaluator, I would make sure they have had good schooling and a lot of intervention before I proceeded and I would do so with caution. I evaluated a home-schooled boy this year and was confident he had a writing disability but that was because I also went to the home and observed her teaching her child for about an hour and then I went to a group activity where I watched him with peers because before that he had seemed a little spectrumy to me. To make this diagnosis lightly is to discount the people who truly struggle with reading problems and as the word becomes part of our everyday language (I'm so ADD) and it gets overdiagnosed, funding is spread even thinner. The best thing parents can do is work with their children. Travelling from place to place isn't going to do it Mullet. Children aren't just magically educated.

Edited for errors. Sorry!

[FloraDoraDolly]

They ARE reading challenged. It is not because they are "dyslexic". It is because they are uneducated enough at age 5 or 6 to think that "monkey" starts with a J. And if they were in public school and labelled as "reading challenged" they would get professional help, not be left to run amok all day with no hint of an education or concern for getting back on track. I'm all for alternative education (I plan to homeschool) including unschooling if it's done right. You can't even call what they do "unschooling" because there's just NOTHING go on. They aren't allowed to have any interests to persue. Educational material isn't left out for them to discover. They aren't allowed to go to any clubs like 4H, Roots & Shoots, Boy Scouts, gymnastics, little league, etc. They're just left to fend for themselves. If it weren't for Jana, Jill, Jessa, and Jinger (heck, maybe just Jana and Jill) it would be Lord of the Flies all over again. Sick.

Where are the books in their house? With a family that size-- and a house that big-- you'd think they would have an enormous home library. How can these kids learn to read when they hardly have any books? "They're fundies, they're not allowed to read anything" is not an excuse. There's plenty of fundie-friendly reading material available via Christian homeschooling catalogs and websites.

[MrsKay]

What a moron. I was totally dying to homeschool once BoyKay was born. I had everything planned out, and managed to win my husband over to the idea, and I was good to go. I had the perfect picture in my head, of what life was going to be like.

Then he was diagnosed with severe autism.

As a responsible parent, I realized that I could not teach him JACK SHIT compared to how well a professional, who specializes in helping disabled children learn, could teach him. I realized that I would NEVER have that experience, or those resources. I could admit it, I wasn't good enough in that area.

So I sent him to the ebil public school, along with the place he goes to for autism intervention. But now, after reading this, I think maybe I really can do a better job. You're my hero, Michelle. *eye roll*

[Renting with Raggles]

Where are the books in their house? With a family that size-- and a house that big-- you'd think they would have an enormous home library. How can these kids learn to read when they hardly have any books? "They're fundies, they're not allowed to read anything" is not an excuse. There's plenty of fundie-friendly reading material available via Christian homeschooling catalogs and websites.

I think Vision Forum encourages reading more than Gothard's ATI system: they seem to like to think of themselves as the fundie intellectuals. It's an academic circle-jerk, since it can't actually produce any new information (which is why their art and literature is so shoddy) but it seems to promote study for the purpose of co-opting and reinterpreting other people's research through a fundamentalist lens. I can see the Botkin girls actually reading stuff by Fielding and Smollet even if all they were going to do was throw up their hands in horror at the evils of Anglicanism and un-Biblical Monarchy.

ATI doesn't seem to offer the same opportunities. Reading Recovering Grace and other ex-ATI blogs it appears that Gothard is really good at creating busy-work for people who help at the missions and ministries. The ex-followers also complain that it was difficult developing real interests or taste for music because the list of styles/ composers was so small. I bet it's the same for any art or area of study. It seems a little like Scientology in that Gothardites are expected to work through 'levels' that are essentially the same, based on the character quality model. There are stories like those of ex-Scientologists of Gothard promoting girls based on looks, and guys based on whether their father was a personal crony, over people doing the same menial tasks and trying for the correct attitude, or spirit. Someone actually involved with ATI can correct me if this is wrong, this is what it looks like to an outsider. In a system like ATI or Scientology, it's not what you know, it's who you know: Tom Cruise is not the brains trust but he's the most sought after Scientologist, so why waste time working on a PhD when the time could be better spent arranging a lunch meeting?

They aren't allowed to have any interests to persue. Educational material isn't left out for them to discover. They aren't allowed to go to any clubs like 4H, Roots & Shoots, Boy Scouts, gymnastics, little league, etc.

This is what makes the Duggars the perfect ATI family, IMO. They seriously have no interests, apart from food and some minor material possessions. All their free time can be devoted to Gothard. Sure, Jinger's got an expensive camera, but does she study the works of great photographers? Does she go to exhibits? Has she thought about submitting work to amateur societies/ clubs? Most importantly, do you think she would be interested at all if not for the show? She's just like a little kid playing with a toy that a distant relative gave her, not a grown woman with a genuine interest. There are 2 adolescents and 19 toddlers in that house, some bigger than others, and that's just the way Bill Gothard likes it.

[Witsec5]

I'm sorry Kay that your son was diagnosed with severe autism yet grateful that he has you for a mom. Thank goodness he wasn't born into a Gothard system.

[Elle]

Where are the books in their house? With a family that size-- and a house that big-- you'd think they would have an enormous home library. How can these kids learn to read when they hardly have any books? "They're fundies, they're not allowed to read anything" is not an excuse. There's plenty of fundie-friendly reading material available via Christian homeschooling catalogs and websites.

Reading anything other than the bible might be considered having an outside interest in that household.

[Elle]

What a moron. I was totally dying to homeschool once BoyKay was born. I had everything planned out, and managed to win my husband over to the idea, and I was good to go. I had the perfect picture in my head, of what life was going to be like.

Then he was diagnosed with severe autism.

As a responsible parent, I realized that I could not teach him JACK SHIT compared to how well a professional, who specializes in helping disabled children learn, could teach him. I realized that I would NEVER have that experience, or those resources. I could admit it, I wasn't good enough in that area.

So I sent him to the ebil public school, along with the place he goes to for autism intervention. But now, after reading this, I think maybe I really can do a better job. You're my hero, Michelle. *eye roll*

Lucky for your son being born to you instead of a Gothard-lover. I have a friend who was attending a very Gothard-like church and was told that she wasn't spanking her son enough if he was still autistic, that she needed to "spank the autism out of him." She isn't anti-spanking, but there was no way she was going to beat the hell out of her son until he just magically stopped being autistic. So she left the church.

I don't think Gothard and his kind think that autism exists as anything but a kid choosing to misbehave, which is frightening since there's no way that there aren't autistic kids born in those families.

[Sola]

So as a school psych I have to say something. To have a learning disability the way we define it in Cali, there are lots of things one has to rule out. You have to rule out limited school experience and environmental factors. At this point, it too hard to tell whether they have dyslexia. It could also be subaverage intelligence. Nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying, coming from Michelle, I have to take what she says with a grain of salt. In the schools we usually do pretty intensive intervention for a while before we test.

^This.

As a fellow psychologist I completely agree.

I would love to spend some time with the howlers. I'd like to bet that none of them do have dyslexia - although Josie might have issues - and their reading problems are down to a crap education.

As for ADHD, again I am doubtful. Those kids get very little attention from their parents, have a very unstructured life, eat a crap diet and don't have a regular bedtime. The older kids benefited from parental attention, the younger ones haven't simply because there isn't enough of J'Chelle and Jimboob to go around all those kids. All those things can produce hyperactivity in children.

There are far too many crappy parents out there; whether they have 1 child or 20, who say their kids have ADHD/dyslexia/whatever when in reality their kids don't get the parenting they need and are suffering from a poor education. I've seen it too many times to count. It devalues the diagnosis of ADHD and dyslexia in kids that really do have it.

BTW, some asked about dyslexia of numbers. Yes, it's dyscalculia, there is also dysgraphia (writing) and dyspraxia (movement and coordination).

[Peas n carrots]

As a fellow psychologist I completely agree.

I would love to spend some time with the howlers. I'd like to bet that none of them do have dyslexia - although Josie might have issues - and their reading problems are down to a crap education.

As for ADHD, again I am doubtful. Those kids get very little attention from their parents, have a very unstructured life, eat a crap diet and don't have a regular bedtime. The older kids benefited from parental attention, the younger ones haven't simply because there isn't enough of J'Chelle and Jimboob to go around all those kids. All those things can produce hyperactivity in children.

There are far too many crappy parents out there; whether they have 1 child or 20, who say their kids have ADHD/dyslexia/whatever when in reality their kids don't get the parenting they need and are suffering from a poor education. I've seen it too many times to count. It devalues the diagnosis of ADHD and dyslexia in kids that really do have it.

BTW, some asked about dyslexia of numbers. Yes, it's dyscalculia, there is also dysgraphia (writing) and dyspraxia (movement and coordination).

I'm pretty sure I have days dyscalcula, just not diagnosed. I always had issues with math...I had A's in every subject but math. It wasn't that I would get the formulas wrong, but I would always turn round numbers/put numbers I in the wrong order and get a wrong answer. My parents thought I was lazy and in elementary school I remember one year my parents had me held back from recess so I would sit and study math more. Ugh, all I can say was that it really made me hate math! Ironically, I have a job working with numbers, and I have learned I have to set asid my work for 15 minutes and then go back over it carefully and I almost always catch some jumbled numbed.

Otherwise, I completely agree with bolded statements above. They are not engaged in learning at all in any area of their lives. They are not encouraged to learn about anything with the exception of the Bible. They have a gigantic property, but no garden, no workshop that I have seen; few books in the home, little food preparation is done other than throwing processed shit in a pan. Poor kids are screaming out to have some kind of structure in their lives, and I'm sorry but the eldest girls arent really capable of educating the howlers on down.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Some observations reading that article...

1. The phrase "reading challenged" totally did NOT come out of Michelle's mouth. It is simply way to hip of a word and would be considered "politically correct". In the world of the conservative Christian Religious Right, politically correct lingo is discouraged.

2. As already discussed up thread, the Dugger children have so many challenges that are built into their lifestyle that it would be difficult to identify the nature of the learning barriers each of the children may face. This family, because of the chaotic nature of their lives has created the same problem that public schools face. They also have the problem of discerning which parts of a child's learning difficulty is a diagnosable processing issue and which parts are due to the challenges of dysfunction in the home environment.

3. Why does the special teacher or therapist always need to be a family friend? Does it really matter what, if any religion a person follows at home as long as they are good at their job and respectful of the needs of your child?

4. How does she deal with the fact that the lifestyle she has chosen specifically quashes intellectual curiosity? By making certain that all information is filtered not only through a single text, but through Gothard's interpretation of that text, she has severely limited her children. Einstein may have had learning differences, but he also grew up in an atmosphere that contained many other cues for learning.

5. We come from a variety of ideas about homeschooling on this forum. Have any of us who favor a public education ever thought that they were absolved of also teaching, reviewing, supplementing and stimulating learning in the home?

Who amongst us would choose a primary method of educating our children and then systematically make other avenues for learning completely unavailable to our child?

[BlondeAgent007]

Just saw this. This is what would happen if

1. The Duggars created an accredited skool made up of homeskool teachers

2. Accepted special needs children

3. Were taken onto judge judy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqqGMKGz ... creen&NR=1

[Witsec5]

Just saw this. This is what would happen if

1. The Duggars created an accredited skool made up of homeskool teachers

2. Accepted special needs children

3. Were taken onto judge judy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqqGMKGz ... creen&NR=1

I watched the clip and it was hilarious.

Listening to JB speak, he does seem to have word-finding problems. I could see how that could translate into having problems with reading fluency and later on comprehension (because for God's sake it took me so long to read that, what did it say?) One of the interventions for reading fluency is to read the same material over and over again--we use a program called Read Naturally. So having JB read bible passages every day helped him. Too bad he now has easy familiarity with words hardly anyone uses in everyday life. Even now, he probably doesn't really comprehend what he is reading. So JB has an excuse, what's Michelle's? Also what does Gothard say when both parents have learning problems? BTW, I don't think Michelle has learning problems; she's just very ignorant. The biggest factor contributing toward success in school is the number of books in the home--even when studies control for parent age, education, and income. Where are the books in that home? And how come thy headship hasn't written one?

[pixydust]

Interesting... I wonder if it ever occurred to her that maybe a different program might have worked better for those kids? Lord knows that when I had problems with phonics, my public school teachers tried other methods instead of making me do the same damn thing over again.

She makes me, as a homeschooler, so mad! My daughter had a hard time learning to read, it took us 3 phonics programs to find something that worked and I was even considering sending her to public school for a year or two. Once we found something that worked for her she learned very quickly and is reading at slightly above grade level (end of first grade, reading at the begining of 2nd grade). The point of homeschooling (for us) is that we can use the programs and curriculum that work for each kid at each level....not just make them do a program over and over again! BTW how do you repeat an entire phonics program? The kid shouldn't move from lesson one to lesson two until they can do lesson one!

[xDreamerx]

I don't think that's the attitude the Duggars have though. I get the impression they pretty much allow their kids to skate through education, figuring they can always redo it later if they don't understand it. They go on trips a lot which takes away from learning time and the whole premise of ATI is that you repeat the same series of booklets throughout your education (IIRC). They let their kids retake exams until they get the desired grade. They don't seem to be bothered with the idea that the children learn things properly the first time and have the proper educational foundation to build on.

[pixydust]

It would make more sense being dyslexic with numbers using a digital vs analog watch.

Personally, I can see numbers correctly in my head, but at times, can still invert them when I speak. Also, when I write, I notice I have a tendency to switch up my p's and b's. Reading is a whole other story. I re-read things to make sure I'm understanding what's written; and sometimes, I just read things completely wrong (it's actually funny when I read something as obscene when it isn't).

Do you guys think it's unusual for me to love reading and writing, yet have these challenges?

Wow, you are just like my husband! My hubby inverts number when he writes (don't tell him a phone number, he will never get it right) and he switches words around when he reads. It's a good thing that he is a fast reader, he has to re-read a lot, he is also an avid reader.

[pixydust]

I don't think that's the attitude the Duggars have though. I get the impression they pretty much allow their kids to skate through education, figuring they can always redo it later if they don't understand it. They go on trips a lot which takes away from learning time and the whole premise of ATI is that you repeat the same series of booklets throughout your education (IIRC). They let their kids retake exams until they get the desired grade. They don't seem to be bothered with the idea that the children learn things properly the first time and have the proper educational foundation to build on.

Oh, I know that the Duggars attitude towards homeschooling is the opposite from mine. They homeschool out of fear and to control, I homeschool so each of my kids can have an individualized education (and because I hate the local public school system, but that is another story).

What is scary is that what kids learn in K-3rd grade is vital. Reading and math basics, things that people use every day, don't seem to be getting done with the Duggars. Even if they aren't going to college and won't be learning physics or whatever, they need to be able to read well know their multiplication tables (among other things).....I think I'm going to go cry some, then start looking at some history books for next year for my kids.

BTW, thanks Michelle! You inspire me to be even better at homeschooling every time you talk about it!

[browngrl]

It doesn't seem to me that the Duggars (or indeed any fundie group) puts much emphasis on education. It is all about character for them. Most of them don't see the value of a university education and in fact see going on to higher education as a negative (especially for girls).

Here is a quote from Legacy of Home blog from June 28/2010 (bolding mine:"We did not keep track of credits earned in each subject. In my school, there was no such thing as 4 credits of English, 4 credits of Math, etc. We simply never bothered. Frankly, I never imagined my girls were going to college in the first place. My plan was for them to finish their education with me, and hopefully, marry and become homemakers like their Mother."

As for their sons - fundies seem to promote only jobs that do not need a university education e.g. the tree business the Bates do or the construction/farm work the Mortons do.

So, I am not surprised that Michelle has a glib answer for her son's reading problems. Education means little to someone whose life will be little more than following orders someone be it their husband or Gothard.

[GeoBQn]

What a moron. I was totally dying to homeschool once BoyKay was born. I had everything planned out, and managed to win my husband over to the idea, and I was good to go. I had the perfect picture in my head, of what life was going to be like.

Then he was diagnosed with severe autism.

As a responsible parent, I realized that I could not teach him JACK SHIT compared to how well a professional, who specializes in helping disabled children learn, could teach him. I realized that I would NEVER have that experience, or those resources. I could admit it, I wasn't good enough in that area.

So I sent him to the ebil public school, along with the place he goes to for autism intervention. But now, after reading this, I think maybe I really can do a better job. You're my hero, Michelle. *eye roll*

The sad thing is, when this article gets posted to the TLC page, I can totally imagine a flood of comments from parents saying, "I was considering sending my child to school because he/she has [neurological/developmental/learning issue], but Michelle's wonderful article has encouraged me to homeschool instead!"

[donks]

I flip flop numbers. Like instead of 472, I'll write 742. I have to double and sometimes triple check what I've written. Makes doing the checkbook fun.

[ladypuglover]

I had no idea that I was in such good company in the dyscalculia department. I have the worst problem with numbers just like some of you and also will mix up my numbers. Makes math, hell even making a phone call very hard.

[lilwriter85]

Since the huge public backlash over the Jubilee, she's just trying to win brownie points, and failing miserably at it. If any of the kids have learning disabilities they need to seek out the help of a professional. And Hell will freeze over before that happens.

I agree with this. Lately, she has shown herself to be an idiot about several things. Many people aren't going to buy the dyslexic excuse for homeschooling. She is just going to make people wonder whether the kids have been evaluated or helped by learning disability specialists. This incident just shows that Mullet and Boob think they are high and mighty and they don't realize that others can call them out on the things they claim.