Breastfeeding in public compared to "world of Sodom"

[2xx1xy1JD]

The "breastfeeding on the subway" photo in question:

http://www.kveller.com/mayim-bialik/my- ... eople-off/ (no, I wouldn't know that she was breastfeeding either)

The original post:

dovbear.blogspot.ca/2012/04/twitter-argument-of-day-breast-feeding.html#disqus_thread

Dov Bear includes this gem in the comments:

Moreover the fact that nursing has its challenges (the supply and demand point) is not necessarily a license to throw civility out the window and just do as you please. Again, everything has to be weighed, and not every breach of decorum needs to be answered, and I'd never advocate treating a nursing woman with rudeness, but all that said, do you have any sense of how militantly selfish you sound? A world where everyone just does as they pleases regardless of how it effects the people around them is the world of Sodom. Even if the people around you are dead wrong, even if the president himself is standing at your side co-signing your big legal "right" its still midos chesed to take the feelings of other people into account and to not subject them to something they find distasteful.

[bold added]

The response:

http://www.amotherinisrael.com/public-b ... nsiderate/

My opinion on the issue:

http://jrkmommy-personalandpolitical.bl ... ublic.html

[ilovetchotchkes]

The "breastfeeding on the subway" photo in question:

http://www.kveller.com/mayim-bialik/my- ... eople-off/ (no, I wouldn't know that she was breastfeeding either)

The original post:

http://dovbear.blogspot.ca/2012/04/twit ... qus_thread

Dov Bear includes this gem in the comments:

[bold added]

The response:

http://www.amotherinisrael.com/public-b ... nsiderate/

My opinion on the issue:

http://jrkmommy-personalandpolitical.bl ... ublic.html

I love your opinion on this issue. Most people who tell me to hide it, or go away or whatever, have NO IDEA, or had kids but it was 40+ years ago... Blah blah blah....

I think society at large is becoming anti-woman/mother a LOT...

[tinuviel]

Thanks for your post! I haven't got kids myself, but from what friends tell me it's not exactly a walk in the park. Usually if I see a woman breastfeeding in public I think "Yeah! Good for her! She's nursing successfully and is out and about like a normal adult!" and I do a happy dance mentally.

I've never understood why people get so offended by breastfeeding in public either. Many of the nursing women I know even manage to feed their children while staying completely covered. Even people who aren't outright offended seem to find it weird.

I think people must just be generally freaked out by female bodies. They're okay on paper or in the airbrushed sexy-sphere, but their real life functionality is just weird or gross. Makes me think of the new tampax commercials that advertise the little resealable packet (for revolutionary worry free disposal!) and the "clean grip" plastic applicator "wand" (with glitter or flowers or something on it). The commercial features a pretty twenty-something girl making a move on a guy at a club of course. I suppose the message is that *radiant* tampons don't interfere with sexy fun time.

I don't relish my period, but some menstruation product commercials seem designed to make me feel like a freak for not really caring if I get blood on my hands from time to time. Public breastfeeding haters seem to have the same horror of feminine bodily fluids as the period-phobes who are making commercials...

[Conuly]

Militantly selfish? Dude, all the women in the Bible breastfed their babies in public and didn't think twice. All the men in the Bible exercised their self-control. Expecting other people to go out of their way to accommodate YOUR lazy, childish ass is the EPITOME of selfish, you little weasely hypocrite.

On that note, I have no kids and, ergo, don't breastfeed. I've had people comment on how I'm nursing the baby (the baby being whichever niece was a baby at the time) when all I was doing was holding her in my arms. This is what I tell people - if folks can't even tell that I'm blatantly NOT nursing a child when my shirt is down and my bra is up and the kid is sound asleep, there's no way they can tell if you ARE doing so under normal circumstances.

Well, unless you're lifting up your shirt above your head, doing a dance, and yelling "I'm feeding my baby!!!" but the only person I ever saw do that was the older niece when she was 3. She was quite enamored of her baby sister and of the attention feeding her teddy bear got her. ;) Everybody else is pretty much fine and shouldn't worry about it.

[Witsec7]

Count me in as militantly selfish. I had no problem whipping one of the girls out. I was aware of place but frankly my daughters needs came first, and hell it was a breast not an automatic weapon. It was made to feed a child.

[dawbs]

I wonder who really has the balls to say things to people...

Last summer, when my kid was just under a year old, I took a family vacation to Chicago. I use a cover when I nurse in public (because my child likes to take her head away and look around if I don't. I don't care if other people don't use covers)...and I nursed EVERYWHERE.

I never got so much as a dirty look.

Not at the zoo, or the aquarium or the planetarium or the baseball game or the subway or the bus or on amtrak or on a park bench or in the hotel lobby or in a gazillion different restaurants--Chinatown and downtown and on the mile and everywhere else...I don't remember where else, obviously it was everywhere we went for a week that I had to do it.

I DID however get an amused 'giggle-snort' from someone trying not to laugh when my kid threw off the cover, took her stuffed animal, and tried to make the stuffed-dog nurse. Which was damn funny.

I had already decided taking her away from the boob and trying to say 'so this is preferable?" to the resultant screaming was the best response if anyone gave me grief--but no one, in my 20 months of nursing, has given me grief IRL. Yet ;)

[ilovetchotchkes]

Count me in as militantly selfish. I had no problem whipping one of the girls out. I was aware of place but frankly my daughters needs came first, and hell it was a breast not an automatic weapon. It was made to feed a child.

People were just distracted by the deliciousness of your bacon bra!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

That's what my whole point is to people who are offended. When i'm breastfeeding, i'm not scouting the room for people who "might" feel offended or squeamish like teenage boys or leery perverts, feeding the baby is priority #1!!!

I had a falling out with a friend who thinks its too "intimate" to do in public. :P Whatever, i'll just make sure I don't breastfeed around her.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I consider myself incredibly lucky to have been living in downtown Toronto (and using community centres in the gay village) when I had baby #1, because I had no bad reactions from strangers and actually had some who actively encouraged me while I was breastfeeding in public. [The bad reactions were all from family members/in-laws and a former friend.]

Thanks to the early support, I was able to continue to breastfeed longer than I had originally planned, and I felt comfortable going out with the baby and even traveling. My best friend, who did not have the same experiences and degree of comfort, weaned far earlier after she got tired of feeling trapped in the house.

Breastfeeding is a very personal choice and I would never shame another mother for her choice. I will, however, acknowledge that we have objective scientific evidence that, all things being equal, breastfeeding is healthier for babies than formula, and also reduces rates of breast and ovarian cancer in mothers. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who contributes to a culture of shame around breastfeeding in public is actively contributing to higher rates of post-partum depression, higher feelings of stress and isolation in mothers, higher risk of illness in babies, higher expenses for families and higher risk of cancer for mothers. Not very "considerate", is it?

[Witsec7]

People were just distracted by the deliciousness of your bacon bra!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

That's what my whole point is to people who are offended. When i'm breastfeeding, i'm not scouting the room for people who "might" feel offended or squeamish like teenage boys or leery perverts, feeding the baby is priority #1!!!

I had a falling out with a friend who thinks its too "intimate" to do in public. :P Whatever, i'll just make sure I don't breastfeed around her.

It just wasn't a concern of mine, and I would never throw a blanket or a towel over her. I have been know to put a clean nappie on her head to avoid dropping sushi on her, but it wasn't a matter of modesty, I didn't want the child getting wasabi in her eyes ;)

[RR88]

I don't see a problem with public breastfeeding. I also think that all women should have the right to not wear shirts/tops where/whenever men have that same right.

Dov Bear has always seemed like a jerk to me. He tries to seem liberal and tolerant, but he ends up being quite offensive sometimes.

(Also, as someone who is sensitive to the high-pitched screams of tiny babies, I approve of public breastfeeding because it keeps a child happy and QUIET.)

[Austin]

Fundies are so obsessed with sex. But even so, this is my reaction: :shock:

[ilovetchotchkes]

Fundies are so obsessed with sex. But even so, this is my reaction: :shock:

There is a way to nurse and do it completely without notice. I"ve done it PLENTY. So much so that the old ladies at my synagogue would come up to me and pat my son's head and say "oh aren't they so sweet when they're sleeping?" and i'd say "Sleeping? nah! he's eatin!" And they'd always look VERY surprised.

[Kaylee]

I wonder how many people who are so militantly against breastfeeding in public have ever even seen it.

When my rugrat was still nursing, I'd do it when and whenever he was hungry, including in an IFB church, and I never had any complaints. I was also nursing him during a program that aired on national TV and you could not tell at all (I had my shirt up on one side, but he was on a boppy pillow in my lap and it just looked like I was cradling him). I never used any sort of a cover, unless you count a sling, but you still couldn't tell most of the time and couldn't really see boobage either way - I did wear a belly band type thing or lowcut tank under a lot of tops, so I wasn't showing my stomach and stuff if I had to pull the shirt up instead of down).

As other people have said, breastfeeding was the norm everywhere until pretty recently and it was a given that women fed their babies in public. The problem isn't with nursing, it's with a culture that assumes a women's breasts are only there for sexual purposes and to turn men in and that catering to a few people's comfort levels is more important that feeding a child or giving a woman the right to be out of the house with an infant (some babies want to eat frequently and going anywhere with them pretty much required feeding them at least once).

[PennySycamore]

I think I've posted about this before, but Marian Tompson, one of the Founding Mothers and the only president of La Leche League was doing some publicity photos once. The photographer wanted to get a shot of her nursing her baby. He didn't know that he'd already gotten an action shot. He just thought that Marian was holding the baby.

[BelieveinScience]

I don't pay attention enough to notice how a kid is being fed but I don't care either way. A child has to eat when a child has to eat. But I do think the whole "if you want to feed your kid go in the bathroom" argument people make is repulsive.

[Dhani_C]

There is nothing wrong with breastfeeding in public. Would these people rather listen to a screaming infant? My dad has to fly during the year for his job and he has had times where he sat next to a nursing mother. He's polite and asks if the mom wants privacy (or just more room with an empty seat next to them) and for him to leave for a while (some do, some don't) but he would never tell a woman not to breastfeed her child.

[Witsec7]

..."if you want to feed your kid go in the bathroom" argument people make is repulsive.

I wonder why folks with this argument don't take their meals next to the toilet?

[BelieveinScience]

I wonder why folks with this argument don't take their meals next to the toilet?

I know, right? I don't get it. And I don't get the they need to put a blanket over the kids head either. If its 100 degrees outside do you want a blanket on your head when you eat? Or even in general. I know my friends have kids who refuse to have a blanket on their head. Women shouldn't be forced to use a cover if they don't want to when breastfeeding.

[Jessica]

If breastfeeding in public is dirty then bottle-feeding is like whipping out a dildo. I can't remember who first said that but I love it.

[Feberin]

If breastfeeding in public is dirty then bottle-feeding is like whipping out a dildo. I can't remember who first said that but I love it.

I hadn't heard that one before but I love it!

I think breastfeeding in public is an important factor in a mother's ability to sucessfully breastfeed her child. The people I know who didn't breastfeed in public always seemed to wean way earlier probably because they got tired of sitting in cars or searching for private areas. Also the whole cover arguement is all well and good if your child will let you cover them. But with my son trying to use a cover past a certain age (six months) just caused us to have a horrible tug of war with the cover. I'd cover him up and he'd fling it off and back and forth then he would end up not really nursing. I did respect people's wishes when I was in their personal homes. The worse was at my grandmother-in-law's house where she suggested I feed him upstairs so I had to leave everyone else and sit in the sweltering hot upper level of her house since she doesn't have central air and none of the upstairs window units were turned on.

I will say that after my son reached a year I rarely nursed him in public. At that point I felt he could wait until we got home to nurse unless we were going to be out of the house for the entire day. I mainly did this for fear of the reactions I would get from other people especially if I was with my in-laws who seem to think you should wean by six months. :roll:

[ilovetchotchkes]

I hadn't heard that one before but I love it!

I think breastfeeding in public is an important factor in a mother's ability to sucessfully breastfeed her child. The people I know who didn't breastfeed in public always seemed to wean way earlier probably because they got tired of sitting in cars or searching for private areas. Also the whole cover arguement is all well and good if your child will let you cover them. But with my son trying to use a cover past a certain age (six months) just caused us to have a horrible tug of war with the cover. I'd cover him up and he'd fling it off and back and forth then he would end up not really nursing. I did respect people's wishes when I was in their personal homes. The worse was at my grandmother-in-law's house where she suggested I feed him upstairs so I had to leave everyone else and sit in the sweltering hot upper level of her house since she doesn't have central air and none of the upstairs window units were turned on.

I will say that after my son reached a year I rarely nursed him in public. At that point I felt he could wait until we got home to nurse unless we were going to be out of the house for the entire day. I mainly did this for fear of the reactions I would get from other people especially if I was with my in-laws who seem to think you should wean by six months. :roll:

We "closet nursed" too after 18 months or so.

[Maggie Mae]

I've got to say that i'm fine with public nudity - I think we are all too squeamish about our bodies. But I'm not okay with breastfeeding everywhere. Restaurant? Fine. Subway? Fine, although I wouldn't want to eat on a subway so I don't think a child should have to eat there either. Work? Not really okay with that. Grocery Store? No. I don't like anyone eating in grocery stores though. Drives me crazy to see parents giving their kids fruit roll up that aren't paid for and cheerios that are flung everywhere that I step on and it seems really trashy to not give your kid a snack before or wait until after. Kids can learn to be patient too. And I don't know why you would want to try and breastfeed while pushing a grocery kart and trying to keep the rest of the kids in tow. It seems to me that we've all become so complacent with eating wherever we feel like it and it's gross IMHO. But I will be the first to admit that I was raised by people with very strange outdated values and sometimes I have really abnormal opinions on things.

[Jessica]

And I don't know why you would want to try and breastfeed while pushing a grocery kart and trying to keep the rest of the kids in tow.

Because food needs to be bought and a baby isn't going to be able to wait while you finish getting everything, stand in line, wait for everything to be rung up and paid for, then pack everything up, drive home, and finally unload and put away all the groceries.

[No Fun My Babe]

I have no problem with women breastfeeding in stores, or anywhere else. Babies don't really understand the concept of waiting to eat. If they're hungry, they have to eat. There shouldn't need to be special or private places to breastfeed, unless the woman herself feels more comfortable doing that. Otherwise, eat on.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I've got to say that i'm fine with public nudity - I think we are all too squeamish about our bodies. But I'm not okay with breastfeeding everywhere. Restaurant? Fine. Subway? Fine, although I wouldn't want to eat on a subway so I don't think a child should have to eat there either. Work? Not really okay with that. Grocery Store? No. I don't like anyone eating in grocery stores though. Drives me crazy to see parents giving their kids fruit roll up that aren't paid for and cheerios that are flung everywhere that I step on and it seems really trashy to not give your kid a snack before or wait until after. Kids can learn to be patient too. And I don't know why you would want to try and breastfeed while pushing a grocery kart and trying to keep the rest of the kids in tow. It seems to me that we've all become so complacent with eating wherever we feel like it and it's gross IMHO. But I will be the first to admit that I was raised by people with very strange outdated values and sometimes I have really abnormal opinions on things.

Why would a mother want to breastfeed on a subway, in a grocery store, etc.? For the very simple reason that her baby is hungry!

Do you know anything about babies and current infant feeding recommendations? They do not eat just 3 meals a day. A new baby eats, on average, every 2 to 3 hours around the clock. Since it can take a half hour to feed and burp the baby, and since many babies either spit up or have an explosive poop immediately after the feed and need to be changed, that leaves only 1 to 2 hours to get anything done - IF the baby sticks to this schedule. Many babies feed more often, especially during a growth spurt. Leaving the house with small children is not a quick process. In short - it's exceedingly difficult to make sure that you never have to feed a baby outside the home.

Different babies have different hunger signals. Mine, for example, would immediately cry LOUDLY and refuse to stop until fed. Not too many subway riders or shoppers would really want to hear that. It's extremely uncomfortable for the hungry baby, it's uncomfortable for the nursing mother who may actually spring a leak since crying triggers let-down, and the only way to know that the baby is getting enough to eat is to breastfeed on demand. Trying to "schedule" a breastfed baby can lead to some serious supply issues.