Quick argument against Biblical corporal punishment

[2xx1xy1JD]

Yes she did, and she got fired for it. The whole family (me included) wanted to see that teacher eat that paddle! She was one bat-shit crazy bitch who should never be around children!

We agree on something!

[She Who Laughs]

Okay so if something is legal and people agree to it, it's okay?

So since it was legal (hitting your wife used to be legal), and the husbands consented, it was okay for them to hit their wives right?

Now I ask you again, do YOU believe it is okay to take a wooden board and hit a child?

Personally, I would not hit a child with a wooden board. But I would not tell other parents (or schools) that they can't or shouldn't. Just a personal preference that I always felt my open hand was the best.

I don't think it is right for a parent to hit a child for any other reason than discipline and then it needs to be done calmly, with explanation, causing discomfort that lasts just for the moment, causes no injury, and includes reflection, more explanation, etc. afterwards. So parents who hit (spank) in a fit of rage – I would see that as wrong. Parents who hit and cause physical injury – I would see that as wrong. Parents who grab their kid's arm, swat them and give no explanation, warning, etc. – I would see that as wrong.

So your question about men hitting their wives really isn't valid in my opinion, it's comparing apples to oranges. It isn't an adult's job to discipline another adult, spouse or non spouse. So, legal or not, a man should not hit his wife, nor the wife hit her husband. Neither should any adult hit any other adult unless they are boxers or cage fighters by profession.

[formergothardite]

What was the youngest you hit your children and when do you consider them an adult so therefore hitting them is wrong?

[She Who Laughs]

So you told them that it was okay for you to hit them, but not for them to hit others? Hmm...interesting. I'm surprised they were able to rationalize that.

I never had to ask for an explanation. I knew what a spanking was and what it was for. I was bright enough to understand that spanking was different than punching another kid on the school bus. My kids were also bright enough to understand that. I don't see anything surprising about it at all. I don't remember ever equating spanking with hitting or thinking that since my parents spanked me that somehow made it ok to hit others. I'm actually suprised that you think kids aren't smart enough to know the difference.

[Koala]

.

So your question about men hitting their wives really isn't valid in my opinion, it's comparing apples to oranges. It isn't an adult's job to discipline another adult, spouse or non spouse. So, legal or not, a man should not hit his wife, nor the wife hit her husband. Neither should any adult hit any other adult unless they are boxers or cage fighters by profession.

When I asked you if it was okay for an adult to hit a child with a wooden board you stated the following:

If it's legal, if the schools practice it, if the parents give consent for their child to be paddled, then yes, it is ok.

You also stated this:

I would not hit a child with a wooden board. But I would not tell other parents (or schools) that they can't or shouldn't

Your original standard was that while you wouldn't hit a child with a board (you like to use your hands for hitting instead), there was no law against it and the parents consented so it was okay.

When I mention that it was once legal and husbands once consented to hitting their wives, you say that it's apples to oranges? Why not say that it's just not your preference for men to hit their wives, but if it was legal and the husband consented then it was okay?

[Koala]

I don't remember ever equating spanking with hitting

Yeah, well you probably aren't as bright as you suggested then. Spanking is hitting.

[formergothardite]

Have you answered what the youngest age you spanked your children was and I have missed it? And at what age a child becomes an adult and it becomes assualt and not just "spanking"?

[She Who Laughs]

What was the youngest you hit your children and when do you consider them an adult so therefore hitting them is wrong?

So you think I actually documented what age each of my children were the first time I spanked them? Good grief. I didn't see it as something I needed to document and record. They weren't all the same age, somewhere in the 3-5 age I would guess. Had they needed spanking as 11-13 year olds I might have spanked them, but they didn't need it so it's a non-issue. Each of my kids became an adult in my eyes at a different age. I most likely wouldn't have spanked an older teen, not because I see it as wrong, but because I don't think it would have been as effective as other methods at that age. As I said, they never needed it so it was a non-issue.

[She Who Laughs]

When I asked you if it was okay for an adult to hit a child with a wooden board you stated the following:

You also stated this:

Your original standard was that while you wouldn't hit a child with a board (you like to use your hands for hitting instead), there was no law against it and the parents consented so it was okay.

When I mention that it was once legal and husbands once consented to hitting their wives, you say that it's apples to oranges? Why not say that it's just not your preference for men to hit their wives, but if it was legal and the husband consented then it was okay?

It's apples and oranges because one is strictly for discipline the other is not. I guess you didn't read my whole post, only the parts you wanted to read.

[Hisey]

I was hit as a child, by both parents. My father was a batterer, and his "hitting" quickly escalated into abuse into my adolescence. It damaged my life beyond measure. I've struggled with clinical depression, low self esteem and anxiety. I would have been a completely different (happier) person if I'd never been hit.

I waited a long time to have kids. I waited till my father had died. I waited till I was sure I could raise a child without hitting. My kids are 12 and 8 now, and I have never laid a hand on them. Neither has their dad.

It is something I am enormously proud of. I have broken the cycle.

The strongest argument against hitting, in my book, is that it damages a relationship forever. If my husband ever hit me, no matter what the situation, no matter what I had done, even if he apologized over and over. . . our relationship would forever be changed, and I would always know in the back of my mind, that he could hit again. The same is even truer about a helpless little kid. Unlike an adult, they ahve no recourse! However, my kids know I will never take advantage of the fact that they are small and helpless.

Certainly, we punish them when they do wrong but they have the security that their bodies will never be harmed. they never have to be afraid of physical pain from me.

And (brag moment here) so far, they are great kids who never get into trouble in school.

[formergothardite]

So you think I actually documented what age each of my children were the first time I spanked them? Good grief. I didn't see it as something I needed to document and record. They weren't all the same age, somewhere in the 3-5 age I would guess. Had they needed spanking as 11-13 year olds I might have spanked them, but they didn't need it so it's a non-issue. Each of my kids became an adult in my eyes at a different age. I most likely wouldn't have spanked an older teen, not because I see it as wrong, but because I don't think it would have been as effective as other methods at that age. As I said, they never needed it so it was a non-issue.

Well, most people can remember the general age they started disciplining their children. I know people who hit newborns, is that okay? What about six month olds? One year old. What is an older teen in your opinion? 18? 19? Why does it suddenly become wrong for parents to hit their children at a certain age?

[She Who Laughs]

Yeah, well you probably aren't as bright as you suggested then. Spanking is hitting.

No I was just bright enough to know that there is a difference between parents using an open hand on a child's bottom to cause brief discomfort for disciplinary reasons and smacking someone upside the head, punching them in the face, or beating them up.

[She Who Laughs]

Well, most people can remember the general age they started disciplining their children. I know people who hit newborns, is that okay? What about six month olds? One year old. What is an older teen in your opinion? 18? 19? Why does it suddenly become wrong for parents to hit their children at a certain age?

I started disciplining my children from the moment I had them. Discipline doesn't exclusively mean spanking. I think I already mentioned that for me, spankings shouldn't happen until the child is old enough to understand and that would be different for every child. So you can stop trying to bait me with foolish questions. And since I stated that I might have spanked a child that was 11-13 but that I most likely wouldn't have spanked older teens, you couldn't figure out that by older teen I meant 14 and on? Do I have to spell everything out? And when I mentioned older teens I also said I didn't think it was wrong but most likely not as effective as other methods. I think the age at which a parent starts and stops using spanking as a form of discipline is up to the parents; I wouldn't try to tell another parent when to start or stop just as I wouldn't want them to tell me when to start or stop.

[formergothardite]

I started disciplining my children from the moment I had them. Discipline doesn't exclusively mean spanking. I think I already mentioned that for me, spankings shouldn't happen until the child is old enough to understand and that would be different for every child. So you can stop trying to bait me with foolish questions. And since I stated that I might have spanked a child that was 11-13 but that I most likely wouldn't have spanked older teens, you couldn't figure out that by older teen I meant 14 and on? Do I have to spell everything out? And when I mentioned older teens I also said I didn't think it was wrong but most likely not as effective as other methods. I think the age at which a parent starts and stops using spanking as a form of discipline is up to the parents; I wouldn't try to tell another parent when to start or stop just as I wouldn't want them to tell me when to start or stop.

I like things spelled out because I have been around enough fundies that they try and be vague about what they say. So the ATI family that decide hitting their 25 year old daughter with a board are okay? The ones that hit their newborns the night they came home, that was okay?

[She Who Laughs]

Oh, and lest I be accused of "flouncing" I have a doctor appointment that I am leaving for momentarily. Carry on...

[Koala]

I was hit as a child, by both parents. My father was a batterer, and his "hitting" quickly escalated into abuse into my adolescence. It damaged my life beyond measure. I've struggled with clinical depression, low self esteem and anxiety. I would have been a completely different (happier) person if I'd never been hit.

I waited a long time to have kids. I waited till my father had died. I waited till I was sure I could raise a child without hitting. My kids are 12 and 8 now, and I have never laid a hand on them. Neither has their dad.

It is something I am enormously proud of. I have broken the cycle.

The strongest argument against hitting, in my book, is that it damages a relationship forever. If my husband ever hit me, no matter what the situation, no matter what I had done, even if he apologized over and over. . . our relationship would forever be changed, and I would always know in the back of my mind, that he could hit again. The same is even truer about a helpless little kid. Unlike an adult, they ahve no recourse! However, my kids know I will never take advantage of the fact that they are small and helpless.

Certainly, we punish them when they do wrong but they have the security that their bodies will never be harmed. they never have to be afraid of physical pain from me.

And (brag moment here) so far, they are great kids who never get into trouble in school.

Giant hugs to you! You did well.

[formergothardite]

Oh, and lest I be accused of "flouncing" I have a doctor appointment that I am leaving for momentarily. Carry on...

Well I can wait till you get back to hear if you think spanking newborns and 25 year olds is okay.

[geniebelle6901]

We agree on something!

I know. It's a miracle...LOL! :shock: Seriously, I am trying not to be the super bitch I was months ago.

[She Who Laughs]

I like things spelled out because I have been around enough fundies that they try and be vague about what they say. So the ATI family that decide hitting their 25 year old daughter with a board are okay? The ones that hit their newborns the night they came home, that was okay?

In my opinion, it would not be ok. But it is not my job to police every parent on the planet. If someone suspects them of abuse then they should call CPS. If all they want to do is complain about it on a message board but not report suspected abuse, then that's their choice.

[Koala]

No I was just bright enough to know that there is a difference between parents using an open hand on a child's bottom to cause brief discomfort for disciplinary reasons and smacking someone upside the head, punching them in the face, or beating them up.

So you would have been okay with your kids using an open hand to cause brief discomfort to bring another kid into line?

[formergothardite]

I know. It's a miracle...LOL! :shock: Seriously, I am trying not to be the super bitch I was months ago.

We can agree on that too.

[Koala]

In my opinion, it would not be ok. But it is not my job to police every parent on the planet. If someone suspects them of abuse then they should call CPS. If all they want to do is complain about it on a message board but not report suspected abuse, then that's their choice.

You are truly disturbed.

[thoughtful]

I hadn't looked at this thread before -- should have known, when I saw how long it was, that someone had decided to defend spanking.

I never understand why the language issue is so important -- "spanking" doesn't sound any more innocent to me than "hitting."

It isn't an adult's job to discipline another adult, spouse or non spouse. So, legal or not, a man should not hit his wife, nor the wife hit her husband. Neither should any adult hit any other adult unless they are boxers or cage fighters by profession.

I agree that adults should not hit one another.

But where do you get the idea that adults never need to discipline one another? Bosses, police, judges, the IRS, the cashier that tells you to go to the regular line because you have too many items for the express line, etc.

Even if the person isn't an authority over you, they exact consequences if you create problems for them -- the first date who doesn't want to see you again because you acted obnoxious, the friend or family member who wants to see less of you because you never pay your share, the driver who doesn't let you in at a merge because you dangerously cut them off earlier . . . I could go on and on.

One of my many objections to spanking is that it does not prepare children for the real world. Adults lose something they value as a punishment, whether that loss comes from natural consequences, others defending their interests, or an authority figure.

Reinforcement is always better than punishment, for myriad ethical and practical reasons. But, when punishment is needed, physical pain is the clumsiest option, and the most fraught with pitfalls.

Oh, and most people I know are against spanking -- I don't live in a radical leftist hotbed, by any means.

edited for clarity

[apple1]

...I started disciplining my children from the moment I had them. Discipline doesn't exclusively mean spanking...

So exactly how do you "discipline" a newborn infant "from the moment you had them"? By Debi Pearl-esque "gently pulling" their hair? Exactly what do you do?

Consider me floored by "disciplining" from the moment of birth.

You truly ARE a disturbed person.

[geniebelle6901]

To lighten this thread up a little.....I remember the night of the April 3, 1974 tornadoes. Daddy, and both my grandfathers were on the river fishing. My baby sis & I were jumping on our parents' bed. Mama had already told us countless times to stop. Then she comes running into the bedroom, grabbed my sis & ordered me off the bed. I thought for sure we're going to get a spanking (mind you spanking for us was always a single slap on the butt not a whipping) WRONG! She practically threw us in the bathtub and made us cover ourselves with the pillows & cushions she grabbed off the beds and couch. My sis and I were crying & screaming, not knowing what was going on. She said there's a tornado coming. Not only were we crying but Mama was practically having a nervous breakdown because Daddy & our Grandpas were on the river fishing in the bad weather. Anyway, about 10 minutes in the bathtub, Daddy and our Grandpas came threw the door safe and sound! Mama was both furious & happy at the same time. I won't forget that day for as long as I live!