TN: Prosecution for death of an embryo

[Visionoyahweh]

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/apr/2 ... ath-of-an/

[fundyfunland]

OMG! I just don't.... There are no words to.....

But wait, actually, wouldn't this law, if applied correctly, basically ensure that Duggars, or TLC, be held accountable for overworking poor Michelle, and thus 'possibly' causing the death of Jubilee? And the result of such legislation is what, imprisonment? Thus, leading to the end of TLC as a network, and therefore such catastrophies as 19KAC and Toddlers & Tiaras? :dance: :dance: :dance:

Ahem, but seriously though, this is so beyond outrageous. Is America still a free country?

[muffynbear]

Is America still a free country?

No way. Women's rights? Those are up for debate. Given the way that our rights are getting challenged, I feel like America is a police state now. I hate to sound like a complete conspiracy nut-job, but I truly think something big is about to happen to this country given the political climate. I wouldn't be surprised if something catastrophic happened (complete financial collapse, civil unrest) and the government declared Martial Law sometime soon. Please google: Michigan Martial Law, drones, Fema camps.

[geniebelle6901]

OMG is an understatement! :evil: But, just to give a different POV into these embryo/personhood laws...I remember years ago there were cases where women suffered miscarriages and stillbirths because if injuries they sustained by a drunk driver or being beaten. There was a huge stink raised that the perps didn't get the punishment they deserved while these women and their families were left grieving and hurting. That may have been the original intent of embryo/personhood laws (or maybe not). But now that the anti-choicers have gotten involved, this is what we're dealing with. And what they want is a very different kind of justice than a woman and her family wants for the miscarriages and stillbirths they suffered. Now I say anti-choicers can go to hell! :twisted:

[Stickers]

I have no problem with people who beat the crap out of their pregnant spouse getting more jail time, zero. ( I wish they would get more period). But I'm sure you can do that without granting embryos and fetus personhood/legal rights. How about granting the pregnant special protections?

But that would benefit the women without furthering a anti-choice agenda right?

[geniebelle6901]

That could be done, yes. But in the case of abuse, lets say there is a period of a few days between the abuse or accident and miscarriage/stillbirth. Unless a doctor can prove that abuse/accident cause the loss of pregnancy, then you have just closed the door on abuse/accident as the cause of fetal demise, and just opened the door to persecuting and prosecuting a women who lost a pregnancy due to no fault of her own. Maybe somebody in the medical and legal field can explain it better.

[Antigone]

Geniebelle, I think I can understand where you are going with this. Still,I'm pretty appalled that something like that has actually gotten this far. Sev said, "Just wait until they actually bring it to court". So we'll see what happens. I can see the law being twisted around to the advantage of the rabid anti-choicers (not sure what word is correct, so I'm going with this one, since this group seem to be against women having ANY choices in the matter of their own reproductive system let alone their own health).

I can see Martial Law happening, unfortunately. Didn't that happen already in Katrina though? I'm trying to recall, since Sev mentioned it HAS happened before once, but I'm not too sure and don't want to blindly take his word for it, even if he has a tendency to be correct 99 percent of the time.... lol.

So I am curious about this. How would it really work? would they prosecute all menstruating women "just in case"? (I know I am reaching and it's extreme, but hey...it's come to this and I'm not sure I want to know what could be more extreme than this new bill)...

[Rosa]

Geniebelle, that's one of the good impulses between feticide laws...but what has happened in actuality in states that have them is that 0 or few people who attack pregnant women are prosecuted under them, but pregnant women who do things judges (or their ex, or their neighbors, or a nosy nurse like that case in Iowa) don't like ARE prosecuted.

it's like conspiracy laws used against drug dealers that are supposed to get the big organized dealers but actually mostly get used against girlfriends who let a small time dealer drive their car or stay at their house.

[geniebelle6901]

Yes, it's sad that what started out as good intentions has now been railroaded by the anti-choice movement. Because now they are opening the door to loss of pregnancy due to illness accidental fall, an act of nature due to no fault of the woman, legal abortion, and women whose period arrives late into criminal acts. It's sickening to say the least!

I don't know how the legalities would work. But one way is to get rid of the religious right or at least render it useless. Now if we can just figure out a way to do that legally. :think:

[2xx1xy1JD]

At least the article adds this point:

Evans said that is not the case. He noted the measure explicitly excludes any harm to an embryo or fetus cause by the pregnant woman herself.

The bill includes language declaring it does not apply "to any act or omission by a pregnant woman with respect to an embryo or fetus with which she is pregnant or to any lawful medical or surgical procedure to which a pregnant woman consents, performed by a health care professional."

Even still, it's a really bad law.

You can easily accomplish the goal of protecting pregnant women....by actually protecting pregnant women instead. Just make it law that the victim's pregnancy is an aggrevating factor, which can double the sentence. After all, the embryo/fetus is protected enough that beatings often don't result in fetal demise - but women are still more likely to suffer partner abuse while pregnant, and it should still be treated as a serious crime even if the embryo/fetus survives.

As someone who has suffered multiple miscarriages, I'm also VERY worried about any move that furthers the assumption that pregnancy loss is caused by someone doing something wrong. In some exceptional cases of violence there may be a link, but in general it's difficult to determine a cause and in many cases miscarriages are caused by chromosomal errors that likely occurred at or shortly after conception.

[geniebelle6901]

2xx1xy1JD, good point there. I didn't think about that.

[TinyDancer87]

I am, by no means, a conspiracy theorist. It is so obvious that the far-right have a hidden agenda. If they wanted to really protect pregnant women, or make assault punishments more severe, the bill could have simply said, "Assault on a pregnant woman will recieve twice the jail time." (I'm not familiar with law jargon...) But no- they instead focus on an outside factor- trying to associate the crime with the age of a embryo. By adding this vocabulary in bills, it will be easier to control women productive rights in the future.

:naughty: Can't fool me; I call a wolf in sheep's skin!

[shesinsane]

The bill includes language declaring it does not apply "to any act or omission by a pregnant woman with respect to an embryo or fetus with which she is pregnant or to any lawful medical or surgical procedure to which a pregnant woman consents, performed by a health care professional."

I guess you could interpret this as allowing abortions of a woman wants one, but I doubt they want to interpret it that way.

Good time to be a lawyer in Tennessee, you could make a lot of money creating a liability waiver for bars and places that sell alcohol, just in case the woman purchasing is pregnant.

ETA: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9769 Oops, replied to this thread before I saw doggie's.

[slickcat79]

At least the article adds this point:

Even still, it's a really bad law.

You can easily accomplish the goal of protecting pregnant women....by actually protecting pregnant women instead. Just make it law that the victim's pregnancy is an aggrevating factor, which can double the sentence. After all, the embryo/fetus is protected enough that beatings often don't result in fetal demise - but women are still more likely to suffer partner abuse while pregnant, and it should still be treated as a serious crime even if the embryo/fetus survives.

As someone who has suffered multiple miscarriages, I'm also VERY worried about any move that furthers the assumption that pregnancy loss is caused by someone doing something wrong. In some exceptional cases of violence there may be a link, but in general it's difficult to determine a cause and in many cases miscarriages are caused by chromosomal errors that likely occurred at or shortly after conception.

Yeah, that. You don't actually need a separate charge to punish someone who injures a pregnant woman. There's already enough variation in murder and assault charges that you could account for harm to the fetus within them. Punishment following conviction can also often come down to a single judge's opinion, so let those judges punish convicts accordingly. Assaulting someone enough that they miscarry is still an assault on the woman; it's not like the fetus has enough awareness to care.

[emmiedahl]

I see they are also passing a law requiring recipients of aid to get drug tested. Apparently Tennessee is not a state that likes to learn from the mistakes of others.

I like having laws that give special protection to pregnant women because they are particularly high risk for crimes from significant others. If they have lost a wanted baby, they have certainly lost more than a non-pregnant victim of the same crime. But I think it could be handled in sentencing, as someone above commented.

It's hard not to see all of this concern for pregnant women as concern for the fetus. No one is discussing making domestic violence laws more stringent or increasing funds for shelters that serve pregnant women. In fact, many in the Republican party are against these things, which would do more to actually protect women.

[doggie]

What I see happening is this does not effect abortion. but it does grant the fetus all human rights so then when another state wants to pass their abortion law stating the fetus is a human they will have grounds to stand on. So this would be more of a stepping stone for others. I can't say this was not planned out.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I see they are also passing a law requiring recipients of aid to get drug tested. Apparently Tennessee is not a state that likes to learn from the mistakes of others.

I like having laws that give special protection to pregnant women because they are particularly high risk for crimes from significant others. If they have lost a wanted baby, they have certainly lost more than a non-pregnant victim of the same crime. But I think it could be handled in sentencing, as someone above commented.

It's hard not to see all of this concern for pregnant women as concern for the fetus. No one is discussing making domestic violence laws more stringent or increasing funds for shelters that serve pregnant women. In fact, many in the Republican party are against these things, which would do more to actually protect women.

This goes hand and hand with the "all legal rights and protections of personhood END at birth" mentality.

Personally, I'd like to ensure that any abused woman has the means to leave, rather than just bring charges after the damage is done.