Recovering Grace has stories of sexual abuse at HQ

[luv2laugh]

Has anyone read this one? This girl tells stories about how Gothard treated her and the girls there and made them uncomfortable. Does anyone know of this really happened?

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/04/ ... innocence/

[breadprincess]

What a horrifying read. It really makes me wonder about Jana working for Gothard now, since she's so pretty and seems to be his "type". I had a similar experience as the author of the article when I was 17 with an older female teacher who was waaaay too touchy feely, and it makes me feel sick to think about it now, 6 years later.

[Witsec7]

There is another thread on this somewhere.

[formergothardite]

The crazy thing is if you have been reading the comments under a lot of the articles, there is a guy named Alfred who is in ATI and defends Gothard even after reading all this. His son is the one who wrote the Peru blog where Gothard gave advice to brain surgeons who put part of a child's gut into his brain!

This is the article that he addressed Lizzie's sexual abuse stories:

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/03/ ... view/#more

I worry less about Jana and more about the Bates' daughter who plays the piano, she has the look he likes and he paid for her and some of her siblings to go on that Peru trip.

[silvia]

What do the Duggars say about these allegations against Gothard? Have they ever even acknowledged them? (I'm afraid I already know the answer, but... yeah.)

[formergothardite]

I doubt they would acknowledge them, but I bet that if they were forced to it would be something vague like "We are looking into it."

[silvia]

I doubt they would acknowledge them, but I bet that if they were forced to it would be something vague like "We are looking into it."

I'm sure. Kind of ironic how the Duggars keep their daughters so cloistered that potential suitors have to go through Jim-Bob as an intermediary, yet they willingly send their oldest far away to work directly for an old guy who sounds an awful lot like a sexual predator based on Lizzie's testimony. Great way to keep her purity intact!

[bananacat]

I'm sure. Kind of ironic how the Duggars keep their daughters so cloistered that potential suitors have to go through Jim-Bob as an intermediary, yet they willingly send their oldest far away to work directly for an old guy who sounds an awful lot like a sexual predator based on Lizzie's testimony. Great way to keep her purity intact!

A lot of people, not just fundies, are more afraid of strangers than acquaintances, even though molestation or rape is much more likely to be from someone you already know. The Duggars are so judgmental about all the outsiders being terrible an un-Godly. It would shatter their worldview to think that a person in their group could be less moral than some heathen outsider. And the really sad thing is that if Gothard or one of his minions does molest Jana, she'll be blamed for it. Not only do they need to blame the victim to prop up their worldview, their own beliefs pretty much always blame the woman. Maybe Jana's problems are actually a whole lot worse than we ever considered.

[doggie]

I know he has been in trouble for this before. I mean come on now either he is asexual (but why all the intimate stuff) or he boffed his mom or he went after whoever he could get. But of course no one wants to see their prophet taken down.

[Patsy]

Wow, what a condescending, victim-blaming POS Alfred is. The people who are continually responding to him and pointing out his BS so politely over there are absolute champs.

[formergothardite]

And it looks like now that Alfred has been pinned down in confronting stories of abuse he is going to pull the classic fundie "I'm suddenly busy, won't be back to answer" line to get out of tough questions. Really, he is going to ask Gothard if this is true? What does he expect? That Gothard is going to be all "Sure I fondle pretty teen girls on a regular basis." Of course he will deny it and say Lizzie is just bitter and filled with rebellion. And Alfred will believe him because he worships Gothard.

[apple1]

There is another thread on this somewhere.

It's part of the thread about the fire at Big Sandy.

As someone said on the other thread, this is no surprise. For lack of a better phrase, Gothard just seems "creepy" like that.

However, in a more documented manner, there is history of various "moral issues" with Gothard going back to 1977. In 1977, there were board member resignations (resigned and/or forced to resign) over several issues.

The stories from girls/young women that he has brought to his facilities for various projects/roles being subject to his "indiscretions" span many years, and are far from isolated or exceptional.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how he continues to get away with this. And I cannot understand how parents of these girls allow him to get away with it. I realize that many of the girls have been intimidated/coerced/brainwashed into silence for years, but there are stories of those who did tell their parents. It seems like even the parents who believed their daughters just quietly left Gothardism.

It does appear that the huge attendances in years past at Gothard events are becoming a thing of the past. But Gothardism is still out there, and there is still influence. And this fact disturbs me more and more as time goes by.

[Clementine]

It's not "sexual abuse" to have a lot of unwelcome physical contact with underage girls.

It's grooming and predatory behaviour.

I can't believe that he has gotten away with it for so long.

[Kitty]

When you realize how these girls were raised to conduct themselves around men, the abuse is even worse.

These are girls who have been told by Gothard never to touch a man, or dress a certain way, because then they're whores who are giving away pieces of their heart. So being raised in this environment, they do all they can to bring attention to their countenance, and some go so far as to never even hold hands with someone of the opposite sex. No innocent pecks on the cheek, no hugs, no touching period. And then they go to HQ, become part of Gothard's exclusive entourage, and are subject to unwanted physical contact that they know they don't want, but they have nobody to tell and no way to stop the touching.

Bill Gothard is one sick fuck.

[lilwriter85]

That was a disturbing thing to read. I feel for the women who had to deal with Gothard in those situations. I agree with formergothardite, the Duggars will never acknowledge those allegations. I have mentioned this in other threads, but I wish the mainstream media would expose Gothard and ATI.

[Witsec1]

That guy Alfred is a real piece of work.

From this thread:

Neither of us have any qualms about leaving our young ladies in his care. My young ladies would not be silent if something were amiss in this department.

You fucking victim blamer. And we know EXACTLY how you would react if "your" young ladies shared that Goatherd's attentions made them uncomfortable and scared. You would minimize their feelings and get them to question their own reality. I think it's called "gaslighting".

I find it so interesting . . . IBLP has been “buried†so many times . . . and somehow it keeps roaring out of the ashes. Do you think Bill worked behind the scenes to get the Duggars – and now the Bates – on national television? That came out of nowhere. A fishbowl examination of pretty much everything he stands for – hard to hide baloney from that many constant cameras. HOW to you account for it? Is there any possibility that “God is Not Finished With Bill Gothard Yet�

"Expletive fucking deleted" is about all I can say to that.

[silvia]

Yeah, I can't help but wonder if the mindset of some of these Alfred types is comparable to that of Holocaust deniers--disavowing the truth even as it smacks them upside the head. I can't understand how the human brain can muster so much denial.

[GeoBQn]

The article brought up an important point about how Gothard has no accountability to anybody, except a board of directors that has no power to influence his behavior. Probably the only way this will stop is if a girl files a sexual harassment lawsuit against the organization. That, of course, is unlikely to happen thanks to his power. Also, I can imagine the organization hiring these girls as unpaid interns or some other legal loophole where they wouldn't be considered "employees" for the purpose of labor laws.

[silvia]

That guy Alfred is a real piece of work.

From this thread:

You fucking victim blamer. And we know EXACTLY how you would react if "your" young ladies shared that Goatherd's attentions made them uncomfortable and scared. You would minimize their feelings and get them to question their own reality. I think it's called "gaslighting".

Precisely. And what, you're going to wait until something happens to your daughters ("my young ladies would not be silent if something were amiss") before you take action?

[formergothardite]

Most of the people who "work" for him actual pay for the honor of doing so. He has the perfect set up, instead of paying lots of employees, he gets young teens to pay him.

[Dhani_C]

Precisely. And what, you're going to wait until something happens to your daughters ("my young ladies would not be silent if something were amiss") before you take action?

And how would they able to tell? As a child, my parents told me that if anyone touched me in certain areas or said things to me that made me feel uncomfortable in any way to tell them right away. They said that while the majority of people are good and would never do this, there are a select few who aren't and they have to be stopped so no child gets hurt. Do these families ever talk about things like this? I mean, my parents were open about this and were clear that we were under no obligation to accept any kind of affection from anyone if we didn't want to (like hugs or cheek kisses).

It seems like even if this Gothard whackjob did say something suggestive or did something lewd to these girls they wouldn't have a clue. They might have a "bad" feeling, but they aren't allowed to have anything but a joyful countenance so they wouldn't act on it. They are prime targets for abuse.

[BravaAmica]

And how would they able to tell? As a child, my parents told me that if anyone touched me in certain areas or said things to me that made me feel uncomfortable in any way to tell them right away. They said that while the majority of people are good and would never do this, there are a select few who aren't and they have to be stopped so no child gets hurt. Do these families ever talk about things like this? I mean, my parents were open about this and were clear that we were under no obligation to accept any kind of affection from anyone if we didn't want to (like hugs or cheek kisses).

It seems like even if this Gothard whackjob did say something suggestive or did something lewd to these girls they wouldn't have a clue. They might have a "bad" feeling, but they aren't allowed to have anything but a joyful countenance so they wouldn't act on it. They are prime targets for abuse.

This culture would blame the victim. A friend's minister [an evangelical/fundie-lite church] was busted for molesting some young girls [between ages 5-7]. And a lot of the parents, the GIRLS' parents, blamed THEIR DAUGHTERS for tempting the minister.

[Dhani_C]

@LauraElle

That is absolutely disgusting. How can you blame a child for the actions of an ADULT?

ETA: The parents, not you, obviously. :)

[dawbs]

And how would they able to tell? As a child, my parents told me that if anyone touched me in certain areas or said things to me that made me feel uncomfortable in any way to tell them right away. They said that while the majority of people are good and would never do this, there are a select few who aren't and they have to be stopped so no child gets hurt. Do these families ever talk about things like this? I mean, my parents were open about this and were clear that we were under no obligation to accept any kind of affection from anyone if we didn't want to (like hugs or cheek kisses).

It seems like even if this Gothard whackjob did say something suggestive or did something lewd to these girls they wouldn't have a clue. They might have a "bad" feeling, but they aren't allowed to have anything but a joyful countenance so they wouldn't act on it. They are prime targets for abuse.

I think it's even harder at that 'almost adult' age.

[disclosure to why this hits home: My parents actually did a fairly OK job at giving me the message...but when I was a young adult, just past my teens, I was 'groomed' by a boss (at my dream job, FWIW. *shakes fist*) and his behavior was very much like described in the linked blog. ]

Most of what is described can be 'to innocent' to raise a stink over, it's easily explained away. Not that that makes it OK, but subtle abuses are harder to pin down.

And who the hell does a 17 YO raise it with? They're not fully ready to be under mom and dad's authority on some of these things...

If it was a 10 YO, it'd be easier to go to mom and dad. And a 25 YO probably has the social skills and spine to stand up for herself. But that middle-ground, to 'independent' for mom and dad, with behavior to subtle to necessarily be able to report elsewhere (especially for girls who have been told men's behavior is their fault and that only horrid 'femi-nazis' demand not being treated badly) but not quite sure how to have a 'polite spin' or to be heard as an authority, etc...that's a prime age for abuse.

[BravaAmica]

@LauraElle

That is absolutely disgusting. How can you blame a child for the actions of an ADULT?

ETA: The parents, not you, obviously. :)

Because they were girls, and thus, inherently sexually curious and will seek out sexual experiences from a young age. <--- that's their thinking. Which I find appalling.

I'm not nearly as close as I once was to this friend mainly because of this attitude about women. She has two daughters that she still sends to that church and Sunday school.