My "date" with a fundie-lite

[salsa]

I myself consider it to be *both*. It's a celebration of sex as a God-given gift AND the relationship between Christ and His Bride. Many parts of the Bible, eg some Psalms, are about both the now and the still to come.

That's a good insight.

[dairyfreelife]

All joking aside, did this guy raise any red flags for you? It sounds like you are mature enough to know that this would not become a relationship and wise enough to walk away instead of trying to make it work. Do you think any future woman should be worried about meeting him? I'm thinking of real nasty creeps and con artists, not just a normal guy that has different ideas than you do.

This thing ate my first message. :evil: trying again.

No, he's actually a nice person, but quite sheltered. He could be a sociopath, but I doubt it. He does not come across as controlling or anything. In fact, he actually apologized during our debate. No one was angry. I got the impression he's really never had much of a debate before and wasn't sure how to take my questions about his beliefs. I do respect other's opinions and beliefs, but I get curious as to the reasoning behind them. I got the impression he'd been told this stuff and has never really been confronted with it.

He sounds like a great catch... for Sarah Maxwell.

Nah, he's not fundie enough.

Meh. Of course no one wants to get hurt, and I imagine most people don't want to hurt others, but the idea that this is somehow failsafe is rather silly. In real life, there are no guarantees, and the best of intentions can go horribly wrong. It just sounds immature to me to think that one's intentions are all it takes.

How I feel too. People (who aren't sociopaths), don't want to be hurt or hurt others, but it's really unavoidable in life. I think he is immature and has honestly never been really challenged in his thoughts or beliefs. I was just asking, but definitely got the vibe that he did not know why he believed what he did, he just believed it and that's all.

[CrazyCatLady]

Poor man, sounds like he pretty much blindly believes what he's been taught but can't really back it up.

I didn't have sex until i was married. i did not have to try on the shoes to make sure they fit or take the car for a test drive ;) I love my husband and i would've married him whether the sex was good or bad so when people make those arguments (try on the shoe, test drive the car) I think it's kinda silly.

That said, we made out a lot and no one lost any pieces of their heart and we're both normal non-fundies ;)

dairyfree- i think it was really awesome of you to gently question him, maybe it's got him to consider the reasons he believes these things...hopefully!

[geniebelle6901]

In college I went on a few dates with guy like that. He seemed nice, but his fundie-lite ways and possessiveness didn't raise their ugly heads until about the 3rd date. No how, no way was I going down that path. But rather than get in his face about it, I let him down gently. I got the distinct vibe that a get lost asshole speech could have put me in a bad situation...as in assault. He never bothered me after that...thank goodness.

[Stickers]

6-He said husbands are to honor wives and that because we are made in God's image, we are disrespecting God by having premartial sex, so premartial sex was like having sex with God.

That... that sounds like a good thing? :lol:

9-When I said I would not want to buy shoes without making sure they were the right fit (in regards to love and sex), he came back with having premartial sex is like buying shoes, running 1000s of miles with it, getting them filthy and then deciding you don't want them.

This is what you get when you don't teach people about sex! Fellas your penis aren't that powerful.

all in all... bullet dodged!

[debrand]

I9-When I said I would not want to buy shoes without making sure they were the right fit (in regards to love and sex), he came back with having premartial sex is like buying shoes, running 1000s of miles with it, getting them filthy and then deciding you don't want them.

(I was intending the shoe thing to mean if we don't even buy silly shoes without trying them on, marriage should be far more important and not be left to chance that you will work together completely).

*.

My first thought was that I wash my shoes occasionally. So, if having sex with a lot of people is like putting back on a pair of used shoes, I would point out that after sex, I usually shower.

[Maul the Koala]

Was his name Paul and did he run a page on Facebook about saving your first kiss for marriage?

[Sky_Diamond]

Premarital sex is like having sex with God?

If this is the case, shouldn't it be encouraged as a way of getting closer to God? In the same way that Holy Communion which can be considered to be spiritual cannibalism, be encouraged?

[debrand]

If this is the case, shouldn't it be encouraged as a way of getting closer to God? In the same way that Holy Communion which can be considered to be spiritual cannibalism, be encouraged?

Some people scream out the words, "oh God," during sex. Maybe they are just worshipping him through sex.

[TXDuck]

Biblical literalists do not take this book literally. Instead, it's a metaphor for God's relationship with his people. Yeah; I've been to Bible studies about "warrior brides." I mentioned it on Anna T's blog and she said the same thing - that it's about God's relationship with Israel (same thing, sans Jesus). :roll:

God thinks Israel's lips taste like honey? Or is as a sachet of perfume that rest between His breasts? That's disturbing. And I'm note even sure how that would work.

[dairyfreelife]

Poor man, sounds like he pretty much blindly believes what he's been taught but can't really back it up.

I didn't have sex until i was married. i did not have to try on the shoes to make sure they fit or take the car for a test drive ;) I love my husband and i would've married him whether the sex was good or bad so when people make those arguments (try on the shoe, test drive the car) I think it's kinda silly.

That said, we made out a lot and no one lost any pieces of their heart and we're both normal non-fundies ;)

dairyfree- i think it was really awesome of you to gently question him, maybe it's got him to consider the reasons he believes these things...hopefully!

The shoes thing was also about the fact that he didn't want to kiss anyone but his future wife, that's why I said "in regards to love and sex" and not just sex alone, but he came back with just the sex, that it's like stringing someone along, getting them "dirty" and dropping them (which isn't the least bit insulting at all :roll: ). I think leaving it up to chance to hope that chemistry is there at marriage is a bit crazy. You said you made out and all that. This guy, I don't think he'd do that so I'm not sure how he'd learn if there was any sexual chemistry there (even without actual sex, you can still see if the chemistry is there). I do prefer to sleep with the guy before I marry. Just my personal preference. Nothing wrong with waiting, but I did expect reasons for such strong convictions in regards to any intimacy at all. He didn't have any and that did surprise me. I don't think I have any strong beliefs without reasons for them. I expected him to at least say he didn't want to be that intimate with someone who they aren't going to stay with or something.

I'm a curious person who likes to learn, so I do tend to question people when their beliefs are different than mine. Not asking anything rude, just why they think that or believe that? I like learning how other's beliefs, so I can be more understanding of why they feel as they do. I do hope he actually thinks about the things he believes because his convictions aren't there. It came across as he just believed these things because it's what he's been told instead of learning for himself. That always bothers me. I really think he feels like if he doesn't have these beliefs, he's sinning and against God and that's really sad.

My favourite is still his circular reasoning of "Even if the Bible doesn't say anything about it, I believe the Bible says it's wrong." I still can't make out how that makes any sense at all. How can a book say something is wrong if it doesn't say anything about it at all? That's like claiming a diet book says to not eat meat, but can't say where it says it and then says even if the book doesn't say it, the book still says it's wrong.

[shesinsane]

Premarital sex is like having sex with God? Ewwww, that's disturbing. Although being God, hopefully he'd at least buy you dinner first.

Having sex with God, at least you won't have to worry about calling out the wrong name.

[dairyfreelife]

Was his name Paul and did he run a page on Facebook about saving your first kiss for marriage?

:lol: No. There are apparently others who buy into that purity notion though.

[debrand]

in Ezekial the bible compares Israel and God's relationship to one of a woman and her husband. I've always found this an odd metaphor. God finds an abandoned child and becomes her foster parent. Later, he marries her when he notices that she has become beautiful.

My point is that the bible does have some strange metaphors including sexual ones.

16:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

16:4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.

16:5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born. (16:6-7, 22)

.

(16:6) "When I [God] passed by thee [Jerusalem], and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live."

(16:7) "I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field ... and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare." (16:8) "Thy time was the time of love; I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness."

.

16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

16:7 I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.

16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

16:9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

16:10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.

16:11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.

16:12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.

16:13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom

[JaChelle Sugar]

What the hell does this mean?

a boner

[deelaem]

a boner

I meant what did your whole post mean? Because it sounds like you're a 13 year old boy who has no idea of what he's talking about.

[Austin]

Poor man, sounds like he pretty much blindly believes what he's been taught but can't really back it up.

I didn't have sex until i was married. i did not have to try on the shoes to make sure they fit or take the car for a test drive ;) I love my husband and i would've married him whether the sex was good or bad so when people make those arguments (try on the shoe, test drive the car) I think it's kinda silly.

That said, we made out a lot and no one lost any pieces of their heart and we're both normal non-fundies ;)

dairyfree- i think it was really awesome of you to gently question him, maybe it's got him to consider the reasons he believes these things...hopefully!

Your situation is very similar to mine: virgin until marriage, I love my husband, etc. However, to say that the test drive argument is "kinda silly" does not allow for the fact that there are couples who are truly not compatible sexually. I'd say we lucked out, frankly.

One of my friends of many years, back from when I was an evangelical, was married to a man for 15 years who was not attracted to her sexually. He thought he would be before they got married because he loved her, but it ended up after they were married (both virgins at the time) that he just wasn't. She spent her Hawaiin honeymoon mostly crying in the bathroom and it didn't get better from there. Being that divorce is so frowned upon in the church, it took her years to work up to it, but after 15 years of almost no sex (and no children), she finally did divorce him.

I hope my sons do a test drive and I've told them that. Responsibly, of course. I think the analogy is a good one, frankly. Sex is one of many important parts of a marital relationship, and if it sucks, you should know that ahead of time so you can make a truly informed decision.

[fluttershies]

Your situation is very similar to mine: virgin until marriage, I love my husband, etc. However, to say that the test drive argument is "kinda silly" does not allow for the fact that there are couples who are truly not compatible sexually. I'd say we lucked out, frankly.

One of my friends of many years, back from when I was an evangelical, was married to a man for 15 years who was not attracted to her sexually. He thought he would be before they got married because he loved her, but it ended up after they were married (both virgins at the time) that he just wasn't. She spent her Hawaiin honeymoon mostly crying in the bathroom and it didn't get better from there. Being that divorce is so frowned upon in the church, it took her years to work up to it, but after 15 years of almost no sex (and no children), she finally did divorce him.

I hope my sons do a test drive and I've told them that. Responsibly, of course. I think the analogy is a good one, frankly. Sex is one of many important parts of a marital relationship, and if it sucks, you should know that ahead of time so you can make a truly informed decision.

Sex is something that can be worked on together and improved, though. Considering that arousal is a psychological thing, there's no reason why your friend's ex couldn't have had help with his lack of sexual attraction via psychosexual therapy. Of course, if it was due to something like repressed homosexuality (which to be honest is what it sounds like in the case of your friend), that would be discovered via the therapy and would be reasonable grounds for divorce. But simply not having any/good sex yet not doing anything about it and expecting it to magically get better seems bizarre - just because it starts out bad doesn't mean it has to be bad forever. No one would expect someone who lost their virginity outside of marriage to not improve in terms of sexual skill, so why is it expected for those who lose their virginity after marriage?

[genericJname]

Your situation is very similar to mine: virgin until marriage, I love my husband, etc. However, to say that the test drive argument is "kinda silly" does not allow for the fact that there are couples who are truly not compatible sexually. I'd say we lucked out, frankly.

Same here. I feel lucky that it happened to work out for my husband and I waiting until marriage. That and we had both participated in non-intercourse "activity" before so we weren't totally clueless.

[Austin]

Sex is something that can be worked on together and improved, though. Considering that arousal is a psychological thing, there's no reason why your friend's ex couldn't have had help with his lack of sexual attraction via psychosexual therapy. Of course, if it was due to something like repressed homosexuality (which to be honest is what it sounds like in the case of your friend), that would be discovered via the therapy and would be reasonable grounds for divorce. But simply not having any/good sex yet not doing anything about it and expecting it to magically get better seems bizarre - just because it starts out bad doesn't mean it has to be bad forever. No one would expect someone who lost their virginity outside of marriage to not improve in terms of sexual skill, so why is it expected for those who lose their virginity after marriage?

Yes, I realize that marital issues can be worked up and improved and we've done plenty of that over our 30 years of marriage. My friend and her husband saw a number of psychologists over the years, so your characterization of her doing nothing and expecting it to magically get better is not true. I do believe that her husband had some issues with regard to very, very repressed homosexuality, but having been raised so strictly in the church, I'm not sure he can/will ever come to terms with it.

Look, I don't care whether people have sex before marriage or not, and if you don't want to, good for you. I didn't and it worked out just fine for me. I'm just saying that it's not "silly" to want to make sure that there is at least great potential for a good sex life before one ties the knot, IF that is very imporant to one.

[fluttershies]

edited as I was projecting my own negativity onto the situation, sorry guys

[The Archivist]

I hope you kept a piece of his heart as a souvenir. :lol:

Fuck that, I hope you ripped it out of his chest like Temple of Doom. KALI MAAAAAH

[CrazyCatLady]

waiting until marriage was extremely important to me, however i realize that it is not necessarily important to many (most) people. I agree with what was said about making sure there is chemistry, I knew well in advance of the wedding that my husband was physically attracted to me. i would be devastated to find that my husband was not physically attracted to me on the honeymoon!

To clarify, i don't think it's silly to be aware of the importance of sex in a marriage relationship but i DO think all the weird shopping/trying on/buying the cow analogies are!

[Rosa]

There's a big difference between the kind of "waiting til marriage" that allows lots of kissing, touching, intimate talk, even clothes-on orgasms, and the crazy no-touching courtship model, in terms of test driving the car.

[dairyfreelife]

waiting until marriage was extremely important to me, however i realize that it is not necessarily important to many (most) people. I agree with what was said about making sure there is chemistry, I knew well in advance of the wedding that my husband was physically attracted to me. i would be devastated to find that my husband was not physically attracted to me on the honeymoon!

To clarify, i don't think it's silly to be aware of the importance of sex in a marriage relationship but i DO think all the weird shopping/trying on/buying the cow analogies are!

But you did shop/try it on since you said you made out and you knew there was chemistry between you and your husband. This guy didn't even want to kiss. Trying on the shoes to see if they fit to me is that. I used the analogy as I said to say that if shoes are so important that we try them on before leaving the store, surely you want to make sure you and your bf/gf "fit" before marriage. This doesn't just mean sexual intercourse to me. Yes, I prefer to include that as well beforehand, but even without it, you can still see if you work.

And the buying the cow analogy doesn't work here since most people use it to say "why buy the cow when you can have the milk for free?" In other words, why get married when you can have sex without it?