what is "right Remedy"?

[dawbs]

Is this one I've missed?

I was googling because I was trying to find a 'child/stewardship' description for the other post because I don't trust my own ability to type today....I found this (linky broken):

rightremedy.org/tracts/19

:puke

Because the are 'tracts', not 'blogposts', I'm extra stabby--that makes the wording issues deliberate and extra obnoxious.

Some lovely excerpts from just the one I linked (bolding mine) :

Our children are the only earthly possessions we get to take to heaven with us. They are a priority for God and they are to be a priority for parents. All the wealth in the world is not to be compared to the eternal soul of one child

.

I wasn't aware I owned my kid.

Or that it was completely my doing if she got heaven or hell in the Cosmic Lottery.

In spite of rampant abortion-on-demand and the epidemic of physical and sexual abuse of children in our society, I am convinced that not spanking children is the most common form of child abuse in our society, causing social devastation on a massive scale.

We would instantly and naturally affirm that a man who sexually molests his child or breaks his child's bones in anger hates his child, but the Scripture also states that those who do not exercise corporal punishment in the discipline of their children hate them. God is the standard of love, and according to the Scriptures, He lovingly chastens His children (Hebrews 12:4-17).

One of the things I appreciate most about my father was his willingness to lovingly employ corporal punishment to correct misbehavior. I had a terrible temper as a child, and when I was twelve years of age, after being sent to my room after a loud argument with one of my four brothers, I began to throw a temper tantrum! I punched the wall, screamed, threw things... My father came in with his belt in hand, calmly instructing me to get control of myself. He gave me five whippings on my rear end with his belt, and then told me that if I didn't stop crying within five minutes, he would come back and do it again! Every five minutes for the next thirty the ritual continued. I would commence my temper tantrum and loud crying and he would re-enter, give me five whippings, then, calmly and patiently, he would warn me once again. After the last whipping, I collapsed and wept - not out of pain, but in submission. He had broken my will - that was a very good thing for me. He had broken my rebellious heart will but won my spirit! The temper tantrums stopped on that day. I hardly ever needed a spanking after that for the rest of my life.

Spanking a 12 YO? Really? and then, apparently, from the last bolded sentence, on after he was 12

And...what sort of 12YO has that sort of 'temper tantrum' w/o other major issues?

The rest of that page is pearl-esque, how to paddle, how to put things in reach and smack for reaching for them, how to not get CPS on your case, how not to leave marks.

[shesinsane]

Children being possessions is in step with most of the fundie beliefs about children. Since how your children behave shows the world the kind of person you are, children are the responsibility of the parents until that child gets married, and third world orphans have become the must have accessory for many fundies, it's obvious that children are objects to be possessed and molded by their parents. It's also why they can breeding huge families without considering the impact on their objects/children. Why trouble yourself that your daughter has too much work to do raising her younger siblings, she's your child and what you decide is best for her.

[TXDuck]

Ya know, my son has a horrible temper. We managed to get him to understand he must control it without ever spanking, let alone beating him till he broke. It took a lot more time than one afternoon, so I give the fundies props for speediness. And if you don't care about your kid's emotional life, I'm sure their way works too. It still astounds me how much fundies complain that non-fundy parent don't want to put the effort into raising children when in fact the non-fundy way requires a lot more effort.

[anniebgood]

My husband always tells new parents that their loan of a child was approved and now for the next 18+ years, it's their job to raise a child who needs to learn to appreciate and preserve the environment, be friendly to all, learn all they can learn about everything, love their families and be good to them.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Our children are the only earthly possessions we get to take to heaven with us. They are a priority for God and they are to be a priority for parents. All the wealth in the world is not to be compared to the eternal soul of one child

.

Actually, I'm hoping that my kids continue to live on earth after I'm gone, so I don't plan to "take them with me".

In spite of rampant abortion-on-demand and the epidemic of physical and sexual abuse of children in our society, I am convinced that not spanking children is the most common form of child abuse in our society, causing social devastation on a massive scale.

We would instantly and naturally affirm that a man who sexually molests his child or breaks his child's bones in anger hates his child, but the Scripture also states that those who do not exercise corporal punishment in the discipline of their children hate them. God is the standard of love, and according to the Scriptures, He lovingly chastens His children (Hebrews 12:4-17).

WTF??????

If you can say this with a straight face, you obviously know squat about real abuse.

One of the things I appreciate most about my father was his willingness to lovingly employ corporal punishment to correct misbehavior. I had a terrible temper as a child, and when I was twelve years of age, after being sent to my room after a loud argument with one of my four brothers, I began to throw a temper tantrum! I punched the wall, screamed, threw things... My father came in with his belt in hand, calmly instructing me to get control of myself. He gave me five whippings on my rear end with his belt, and then told me that if I didn't stop crying within five minutes, he would come back and do it again! Every five minutes for the next thirty the ritual continued. I would commence my temper tantrum and loud crying and he would re-enter, give me five whippings, then, calmly and patiently, he would warn me once again. After the last whipping, I collapsed and wept - not out of pain, but in submission. He had broken my will - that was a very good thing for me. He had broken my rebellious heart will but won my spirit! The temper tantrums stopped on that day. I hardly ever needed a spanking after that for the rest of my life.

If corporal punishment was such a wonderful thing, why would a 12 yr old be throwing a tantrum in the first place?

Many of you perhaps have a child who was much like I was as a rebellious twelve year old: a rebellious, uncontrollable, ungrateful, disrespectful child that you don't like being around. Does your three-year-old hit you, thrown temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way? Does your six-year-old try to manipulate you, embarrass you in public? Does your fourteen-year-old disrespect you, yell at you, disobey your commands? Do your children hate being around you, and you them?

Actually - no. I have never hated my kids. I'm not surprised though that someone who advocates beating kids would see them in this way.

Now, I'm not going to brag too much, because I realize that having great, well-behaved kids is largely a matter of divine blessing/cosmic luck, but I will point out that are, objectively speaking, great kids despite the fact that I "abused" them through non-spanking. According to spanking advocates, it's not possible for kids like them to exist.

[Terrasola]

This exposes an issue I have with fundies. It seems that with them everything is a ______ from the Lord (blessing, message, trial to make you stronger, etc.) So basically, everything comes from God and is, therefore, Hers. That should include the environment, animals and, other human beings. Under this theological framework, people should be caretakers of children, animals and the environment, not owners. Who trashes and physically manhandles something they are looking after on behalf of another? Under this framework shouldn't this type of Christian be an environmentalist, animal welfare promoting non-spanker?

Probably a reason paganism fits me better.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

The odd thing I keep thinking about is that this sort of tragic, barbaric "parenting" is really the only way that QF types can make their lives seem manageable to new recruits - and to themselves, though I will never understand how someone can do this to children. How can they possibly convince others that they can have 10 children without going totally insane unless they can also demonstrate how to make these children perfectly submissive robots who always toe the line? How can the movement get its "army for God" if they don't have a brutally oppressive system in place from birth onwards? You need a method that will squash dissent before it begins. If you can convince someone - especially someone who wants a big family but feels intimidated by the responsibility - that they can raise 10+ children who will be perfectly behaved and successful, and also that it is the only way to do it if you don't want them to go to hell, you're likely to hook them.

Often I read stories of fundies or ex-fundies who got sucked in as adults, in which they mention that they began to go from conservative Christian to full-blown fundie because they met a family in which there were many children who all seemed so well-behaved and perfectly happy, and it made them want that kind of life. I actually remember reading a story where the narrator talked about how her parents would invite new families over to show off their perfect children and tell them that they could have this too if they followed Gothard. I also remember another story about a woman who witnessed her friend's 3-y/o immediately clean up her toys and go to bed without a peep or a delay when so ordered. Maybe I'm overly paranoid, but if I met a family with young children who were always perfectly well-behaved, quiet, and immediately compliant, I'd be suspicious of the parents. It's not normal, for example, for a toddler to sit still and quiet for a 2-hour church service. I'm obviously not saying that all parents with well-behaved kids are abusers, just that little kids who never make noise or get dirty or speak out of turn or throw a tantrum strike me as being afraid of their parents.

[Swamptribe]

My husband always tells new parents that their loan of a child was approved and now for the next 18+ years, it's their job to raise a child who needs to learn to appreciate and preserve the environment, be friendly to all, learn all they can learn about everything, love their families and be good to them.

That's pretty cool. May have to steal that line.

[kpmom]

My husband always tells new parents that their loan of a child was approved and now for the next 18+ years, it's their job to raise a child who needs to learn to appreciate and preserve the environment, be friendly to all, learn all they can learn about everything, love their families and be good to them.

What does your husband do that he comes in contact with so many new parents?

[Patsy]

If corporal punishment was such a wonderful thing, why would a 12 yr old be throwing a tantrum in the first place?

In my experience it's rather rare to see a temper tantrum in a 12 year old, so this must have been a kid who felt particularly out of control. And instead of trying to help him get through that, he got further torment (which I know for a fact would make me feel more distressed, panicked and out of control). Shit, do you beat your kids when they don't 'get' multiplication the first time, too? Or do you explain it again and try to find another way for them to learn?

See, I don't think my memory is very good at all, but I do remember very clearly how it felt to be in my tantrums at the age of four, and it was utterly revolting. I had like, three mini panic attacks at around the age of 11, and that's what I would compare it to. At the age of four, it was an overwhelming and all-encompassing feeling. I remember feeling despair like a physical implosion below my sternum, turning into this galaxy-sized black hole that sucked my entire consciousness into a reality of tipping vertigo and white noise. It was like my head was pulled to the ground and the world outside myself shrank. Whenever these out of control wailing jags ended up in any sort of rage response, it was because I felt particularly out of control, or despairing because my dad just didn't understand and I couldn't talk so how could I make him understand? If my parents had responded by demanding my full attention and giving me further torment, I don't think I would have grown out of it by the age of six, you know? Like, maybe I would have felt enough rage inside me that it could still be triggered by verbal altercations with siblings at the age of 12.

/said someone who is less anti-corporal punishment than most of the posters here

[anniebgood]

What does your husband do that he comes in contact with so many new parents?

He talks to everybody. He spends his days breaking into security safes and locks.

He's a chatty Cathy from way back. Elevators, grocery lines, TSA lines at the airport. I try to hide. He loves to talk to people. When ever he sees someone with a little one he tells them that. He says that new parents need to be reassured that it's ok to be scared too.

[Terrasola]

The odd thing I keep thinking about is that this sort of tragic, barbaric "parenting" is really the only way that QF types can make their lives seem manageable to new recruits - and to themselves, though I will never understand how someone can do this to children. How can they possibly convince others that they can have 10 children without going totally insane unless they can also demonstrate how to make these children perfectly submissive robots who always toe the line? How can the movement get its "army for God" if they don't have a brutally oppressive system in place from birth onwards? You need a method that will squash dissent before it begins. If you can convince someone - especially someone who wants a big family but feels intimidated by the responsibility - that they can raise 10+ children who will be perfectly behaved and successful, and also that it is the only way to do it if you don't want them to go to hell, you're likely to hook them.

Often I read stories of fundies or ex-fundies who got sucked in as adults, in which they mention that they began to go from conservative Christian to full-blown fundie because they met a family in which there were many children who all seemed so well-behaved and perfectly happy, and it made them want that kind of life. I actually remember reading a story where the narrator talked about how her parents would invite new families over to show off their perfect children and tell them that they could have this too if they followed Gothard. I also remember another story about a woman who witnessed her friend's 3-y/o immediately clean up her toys and go to bed without a peep or a delay when so ordered. Maybe I'm overly paranoid, but if I met a family with young children who were always perfectly well-behaved, quiet, and immediately compliant, I'd be suspicious of the parents. It's not normal, for example, for a toddler to sit still and quiet for a 2-hour church service. I'm obviously not saying that all parents with well-behaved kids are abusers, just that little kids who never make noise or get dirty or speak out of turn or throw a tantrum strike me as being afraid of their parents.

Your thoughtful comment has started me thinking about how these child rearing / training methods ARE like military basic training methods. Perhaps those among us who are military / ex-military can add their wisdom. It is my understanding that basic training methods, especially pre-human rights era methods, seek to break an individual's will and re-make it in a desired mold that includes unquestioning obedience and a willingness to obey orders immediately. This sounds very similar to what we are discussing with fundy parents. Hmmm..

[2xx1xy1JD]

Your thoughtful comment has started me thinking about how these child rearing / training methods ARE like military basic training methods. Perhaps those among us who are military / ex-military can add their wisdom. It is my understanding that basic training methods, especially pre-human rights era methods, seek to break an individual's will and re-make it in a desired mold that includes unquestioning obedience and a willingness to obey orders immediately. This sounds very similar to what we are discussing with fundy parents. Hmmm..

At the risk of invoking Godwin's law....I tend to associate unquestioning obedience with Nazism. Do these people have any knowledge of how Adolf Eichmann claimed at his trial that he was "just following orders"?